The Century of War (Serverfiles are available)

[Hazzard]

Muskets did fine themselves on their own on the odd occasion, they functioned like 19th century riflemen and later standard line according to this set of articles: http://warfare.uphero.com/Renaissance/RenaissanceWarfare-AirfixMagazineArticles.htm
So I don't think restricting missile infantry to NW style line formations is a good idea. I quite like the idea of giving them the flexibility to go out on their own if they think it helps. Because it's balanced by the power of cavalry riding them down if they're without support.

[Friedrich]

Yes, there were used some skirmishers, mostly harquebusiers, because the early muskets were too heavy (that's why mostly musket forks were used). But this were only small groups. Most musketeers/harquebusiers were attached to the big tercios, because pikeneers without fire support would have been killed by cuirassiers, pistoliers or mounted harquebusiers easily, while the caracolla (basicly a hit-and-run-tactic of firearmed cavalry).

Firearm infantry, unless they were detailed to form a 'forlorn' or skirmish line, were usually formed in 'order' (three feet spacing between files).

The problem is, when we allow musketeers to skirmish, everyone else starts complaining (look NW). And then it looks like a huge skirmish brawl. Imo we should stick into formation events and improve the tactics ingame.

And as I sayed, Pikes are not effective any more when theyre only consisting of too less players. I've seen it a lot that they drop their pikes (that should be definitly NOT the intention) then when they enter melee.

Btw this Renaissance Warfare site is more sticked to pre-Thirty-Years war era (Italian Wars & Early Eighty Years War).

[Cairo1]

Glory and success to this mod!
Honor and Victory for its testers!

I wish you nothing but luck and good will!

all of my want, all of my yes.

[Grozni]

Well if mod developers want to have events focused on realistic formations, then there is no discussion about it.

Large regiments should be forced by rules to form a tercio, just like they are forced to form a line in NW. They can be line if traveling to another position.

Smaller one-class regiments can either form a line along side of tercio, or make smaller tercio anywhere next to big one.

Big tercio can be spread anything up to two man spacing (to allow helper troops on edges to enter the safety of their formation without too much pushing and squeezing)

If small regiment is making a line along side of big tercio, and their line is longer than the side of big tercio, they are allowed to make more than one rank. (Ideally, small musketeer regiment would make a line of two ranks along side of tercio, and would fire two volleys, one per each rank, one while the other is reloading.)

Some problems:

-People at wrong side of the tercio might die of boredom, as they spend most of time facing away from fighting and catching bullet drops.
Solution: more cavalry, let two cav per team be standard for events, so there is more flanking going on, so infantry can feel this tactics is serving a purpose rather than limiting

-Tercios are harder to form than lines. Actually it is surprisingly hard.
No solution here but regimental training. And a good system, like form a small line next to officer first and then keep adding lines behind. But still, it can be surprisingly hard, as a military formation in practice is only as agile and smart as the dumbest and clumsiest guy in it.

-Tercios are hard to move.
If tercio wants to move, walking (shift) is enforced by rules. Moving a formation is much easier with walking on, although it doesn't guarantee success it will prevent total breaking of formation on each move attempt. And of course, with drummer in ranks, walking in a formation is atmospheric as hell. Small regiment helper ranks are still allowed to run.
If big regiment wants to move by running, they would have to make a line first. Ofc, when melee is near or charging, running should be allowed.


Examples of allowed formations:
0 - big regiment muskets
1 - big regiment pikes
A - small regiment A
B - small regiment B

Basic tactics with small regiments covering sides of big tercio

B B B B B B
0 0 0 0 0 0 AA
0 1 1 1 1 0 AA
0 1 1 1 1 0 _ A
0 1 1 1 1 0 _ A
0 1 1 1 1 0 AA
0 0 0 0 0 0 AA

Small square on edge:
_ _ _ _ _ _ BBB
_ _ _ _ _ _ BBB
_ _ _ _ _ _ BBB
0 0 0 0 0 0 AA
0 1 1 1 1 0 AA
0 1 1 1 1 0   A
0 1 1 1 1 0   A
0 1 1 1 1 0 AA
0 0 0 0 0 0 AA

Big tercio is pikeman only, and spread out

_____________________ BBB
_____________________ BBB
_____________________ BBB
1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 A
_____________________ A
1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 A
_____________________ A
1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 A
_____________________ A
1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 A
_____________________ A
1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 A
_____________________ A
1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1 __ 1

[Friedrich]

Sorry, really nice suggestions, but square formations rarely work in Warband. And most would not do it, you're a splendit target for a musket volley or cannonball. If you had 3000 players per tercio it would not matter, but not if you are around 10-20. You can try to deploy this against cavalry. But not when youre advancing or fighting against other pikes. a pike line would just simply encircle your tercio and could flank your front. And your tercio is not the difficultest one. Remember the swedish order, it would be even more complicated. The only managable and maneuverable formation would be a kind of double line:

M - Musketeers
P - Pikemen


   M
   M
   M
   M
P P
P P
P P
P P
P P
   M
   M
   M
   M

P
P M
P M
P M
P M
P M
P M
P M
P M
P

[Grozni]

Well some years ago I wouldn't believe so many players would agree to stand in lines, while under musket and arty fire, and do exactly as one officer commands, but NW proved otherwise.

Anything can be solved with some modding - make arty cannon hit less devastating, muskets more inaccurate and less range. People bravely standing in their melee formation while bullets are dropping and arty shells exploding around them is what atmosphere of this era is about. If done right, one would not join the event to perform some amazing feat of pike-spinning solo melee, but rather to experience historical spectacle from eyes of a soldier who is part of formation of the era, and testing his luck against inaccurate projectiles is part of experience.

If more people were to watch this movie, maybe more of them would be up for recreating it

And pike melee could be modded in a way so having multiple ranks would be more useful than one. I think you noticed people dropping pikes because the way they work now its hard to make some actual damage against infantry with them.

[Romulus]

What do you have to do to apply for Alpha access for a regiment?

[Friedrich]

- honesty
- steady numbers in attending events
- at least some (no troll) fame in the community
- skilled enough to form something more than just a standard line in an event
- some interest in that era
- not starting 'why isn't my pro-nation in this mod? It is so important in this era bla bla bla' discussions
- willing to support and listen to the modders
- helping with historical pictures/unit names/flags from this era (prefering dutch/swedish/german itm)

If you bring this, contact KArantukki. We will discuss the rest internal and inform you very quick!

[KArantukki]

- at least some (no troll) fame in the community

Ha, Fame Bitch ! 

For me its more important that you are a regiment wich can bring about 15-30 people for sure, so if you are intessted but you are a small regiment or only a few of your players are interessted try to form a regiment for the beta with other NW regiments so you can bring the number of men.

[LeBrun]

 I would like to reply about the formation system by presenting and naming the three systems of pike and shot of this period. Those would have to be perform on events for a minimum of historical accuracy  :

M- Musketeer
P- Pikemen

Spanish System

M M M M M
M P  P  P M
M P  P  P M
M P  P  P M
M M M M M 

Or

M M        M M
M M        M M
      P P P
      P P P
      P P P
M M        M M
M M        M M

Dutch System :

M M
M M
M M
P P
P P
P P
MM
MM
MM

Sometimes in the dutch system some musketeers were send forward as skirmishers.

Swedish System :

M
M
M
M
PP
PP
PP
M
M
M
M
This formation is like the dutch one but was more shallower for more firepower.

 know that some people has allready present some of those formations but it was just to name them.


Also for the artillery i don't know if the system is like NW but if it is, that will be a big problem. An artillery too accurate which can easily destroy a pike formation would not be fun and nobody would like to make a Tercio . I hope that the accuracy will be less than NW or that the sight will be remove , just an artillery where you need to have the greatest skill.

And just for know, will it be possible to brace pikes ?

[Romulus]

- at least some (no troll) fame in the community

Ha, Fame Bitch ! 

For me its more important that you are a regiment wich can bring about 15-30 people for sure, so if you are intessted but you are a small regiment or only a few of your players are interessted try to form a regiment for the beta with other NW regiments so you can bring the number of men.

Ah well me and my friends only bring up an average of 12. but I'll wait for the full release, Thank you.

[Grozni]

And just for know, will it be possible to brace pikes ?

Yep.

[EdwardC]

Bump. Let this be out soon.

[Friedrich]

[Devmc99]

Any updates?