Bello Civili - The Roman Civil War [RELEASED] - Old Thread -

[Willhelm]

Isn't this after the marian reforms? Why do they still have Lorica Hamata's and round shields?

Quote me if you will the part of the marian reforms which says we'll change all the armour and give them square shields.

[Hinkel]

Isn't this after the marian reforms? Why do they still have Lorica Hamata's and round shields?

Marian reform does not mean they have Lorica Segmentata.
The Lorica Hamata was the main roman armor, also DURING the imperial age after 0AD.

The mod takes place 50 years after the reform. Lorica Hamata and the oval scutum was used in that time (no other armor)
After 0AD, a small amount of roman troops used the steel plate Lorica Segmentata. 90 % of the legionaries still used the Hamata.

This was the armor, used by marian legionaries AND by caesar troops:

[Marceaux]

Isn't this after the marian reforms? Why do they still have Lorica Hamata's and round shields?

Marian reform does not mean they have Lorica Segmentata.
The Lorica Hamata was the main roman armor, also DURING the imperial age after 0AD.

The mod takes place 50 years after the reform. Lorica Hamata and the oval scutum was used in that time (no other armor)
After 0AD, a small amount of roman troops used the steel plate Lorica Segmentata. 90 % of the legionaries still used the Hamata.

This was the armor, used by marian legionaries AND by caesar troops:

I love the bottom picture.

[wdadade]

Isn't this after the marian reforms? Why do they still have Lorica Hamata's and round shields?

Marian reform does not mean they have Lorica Segmentata.
The Lorica Hamata was the main roman armor, also DURING the imperial age after 0AD.

The mod takes place 50 years after the reform. Lorica Hamata and the oval scutum was used in that time (no other armor)
After 0AD, a small amount of roman troops used the steel plate Lorica Segmentata. 90 % of the legionaries still used the Hamata.

This was the armor, used by marian legionaries AND by caesar troops:

Ah thanks! I didn't know this!

[Friedrich]

Isn't this after the marian reforms? Why do they still have Lorica Hamata's and round shields?

Marian reform does not mean they have Lorica Segmentata.
The Lorica Hamata was the main roman armor, also DURING the imperial age after 0AD.

The mod takes place 50 years after the reform. Lorica Hamata and the oval scutum was used in that time (no other armor)
After 0AD, a small amount of roman troops used the steel plate Lorica Segmentata. 90 % of the legionaries still used the Hamata.

This was the armor, used by marian legionaries AND by caesar troops:

Ah thanks! I didn't know this!

Lorica Segmentata replaced after 0 AD nearly all Lorica Hamata, but ONLY for Legionaries, not for Auxiliary or Cavalry units. But with the beginning of the 3rd century Lorica Segmentata vanishes from use in roman armies.

[Willhelm]

Lorica Segmentata replaced after 0 AD nearly all Lorica Hamata, but ONLY for Legionaries, not for Auxiliary or Cavalry units. But with the beginning of the 3rd century Lorica Segmentata vanishes from use in roman armies.

This was the old opinion based on Trajans column, but it's now being discovered that the segmentata was probably only used about 50% of the time by legionaries, who would have had a mix of hamatas and segmentatas, maybe depending on preference or just availability.

[Friedrich]

Lorica Segmentata replaced after 0 AD nearly all Lorica Hamata, but ONLY for Legionaries, not for Auxiliary or Cavalry units. But with the beginning of the 3rd century Lorica Segmentata vanishes from use in roman armies.

This was the old opinion based on Trajans column, but it's now being discovered that the segmentata was probably only used about 50% of the time by legionaries, who would have had a mix of hamatas and segmentatas, maybe depending on preference or just availability.

I can only say what my Prof is telling me in lectures. The problem is, both is not proved if the lorica hamata was replaced by segmentata nearly completly or not. If you find a hamata, it possibly can be from a legion cavalry member as well, it has not to be of an infantry member. But of course hamata wasnt replaced completly. The only fact proven is, that the lorica segmentata was faster and cheaper in production than the hamata. With the same protection.

[kpetschulat]

The segmentata, while offering superior protection, was very expensive. Often, you'd see veteran soldiers and officers wearing, since they could afford it. Also, the segmentata was a serious health concern. Due to the way the plates were made, certain movements can cause bodily injury(i.e. Lifting your arms above shoulder height). It could cause cuts, bruising, and could sometimes choke the user. The hamata was more common, although heavier, due to it allowing the wearer to be far more agile, and didn't pose the risk of self harm unlike the segmentata.

And, in regards to how long the segmentata was worn, I was reading in an old military history book from college days that there were soldiers wearing as early as 50bc to as late as 300ad. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. But, definitely it was worn by guardsmen and veteran officers and soldiers, for sure.

[Friedrich]

The segmentata, while offering superior protection, was very expensive. Often, you'd see veteran soldiers and officers wearing, since they could afford it. Also, the segmentata was a serious health concern. Due to the way the plates were made, certain movements can cause bodily injury(i.e. Lifting your arms above shoulder height). It could cause cuts, bruising, and could sometimes choke the user. The hamata was more common, although heavier, due to it allowing the wearer to be far more agile, and didn't pose the risk of self harm unlike the segmentata.

And, in regards to how long the segmentata was worn, I was reading in an old military history book from college days that there were soldiers wearing as early as 50bc to as late as 300ad. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. But, definitely it was worn by guardsmen and veteran officers and soldiers, for sure.

Nope, it has no superior protection nor is it more expensive. You need more hours of work to finish the hamata than the segmentata. You can do the same movements you can do with the hamata. With the focale (scarf), you dont get any injuries at your neck or somwhere else. Just imagine if miles would'nt be able to work with tool to construct trenches and vallum. The common misapprehension is, that the lorica segmentata is no plate armor! Only fact is: riding with a segmentata is possible, but here of course not recommendable. But we have hybrid cavalry armours, with a lorica hamata and the shoulder parts are segmentata.

[kpetschulat]

How can you say the segmentata doesn't offer superior protection when it was made for that? The purpose of the segmentata was to provide additional upper body and shoulder protection. Why? That's where the barbarian warriors tried to hack/hit at. It was far more expensive, because of the delicate procedure it took to make, including the resources. I'm taking this all out of my old college history book, which was mainly about military history, which was the class I was taking.

[Friedrich]

How can you say the segmentata doesn't offer superior protection when it was made for that? The purpose of the segmentata was to provide additional upper body and shoulder protection. Why? That's where the barbarian warriors tried to hack/hit at. It was far more expensive, because of the delicate procedure it took to make, including the resources. I'm taking this all out of my old college history book, which was mainly about military history, which was the class I was taking.

The roman armor was designed to resist a roman legionary! 
Were do I take it from, from my studium of Archeology of the Roman Provinces with main focus on roman militaria. My lecturers are Prof. Dr. Thomas Fischer & Dr. Salvatore Ortisi. Any complaints please at them. I have enough material about roman militaria here, since I'm studying it for around 4 years now.

[Willhelm]

The segmentata, while offering superior protection, was very expensive. Often, you'd see veteran soldiers and officers wearing, since they could afford it. Also, the segmentata was a serious health concern. Due to the way the plates were made, certain movements can cause bodily injury(i.e. Lifting your arms above shoulder height). It could cause cuts, bruising, and could sometimes choke the user. The hamata was more common, although heavier, due to it allowing the wearer to be far more agile, and didn't pose the risk of self harm unlike the segmentata.

And, in regards to how long the segmentata was worn, I was reading in an old military history book from college days that there were soldiers wearing as early as 50bc to as late as 300ad. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. But, definitely it was worn by guardsmen and veteran officers and soldiers, for sure.

I think the generally accepted date is from about 9BC to 300 AD

[Friedrich]

9AD is fact, at the Battle of Teutoburg Forest we have the erliest lorica segmentata Kalkriese type!

[Willhelm]

9AD is fact, at the Battle of Teutoburg Forest we have the erliest lorica segmentata Kalkriese type!

If there is a significant number in 9AD then they will have had them for at least a few years before or longer. If it was brand new at the event they would have probably made comments like "Oh the new armour doesn't stop german spears!"

[Friedrich]

It's an archeological date, not the exactly "oh-it-is-now-produced-and-we-use-it" date! 

But most other earlyer archeological contexts are not really "saved", the earliest save one is this one at Kalkriese/Germany.
Maybe the segmentata was used in the civil war as well, but we have for now no archeological evidence for it.