A rant about Americans that think they won everything - Written by yahoo answers

[Docm30]

kpetschulat, it's quite clear you can't look at the matter objectively, so I see no point in discussing this with you if you're going to blindly cling to preposterous myths. I'm sure your great-grandfather was no Nazi and hated the things they did and I mean no offence to him, but he still fought a pointless war which was started with the intent of spreading German imperialism and fascism, and he almost certainly knew that.

Side Notes, they invented the best Bombers and Fighters(B-25, P-51 Mustang) And were the only nation to give a huge amount of firepower largely due to fielding the M1 Garand (8 Shot Semi Auto .30 cal)

The notoriously sluggish and poorly performing P-51 the best fighter of the war? Soviet fighters like the La-7 and Yak-3 ran circles around American ones.

3. This isn't 1812. The Germans had plenty of Falshrimjagers they could have used, or they could have attacked Canada and used that as a FOB against the US. The Atlantic and Pacific were no longer an excuse for saying that the US could stay out of war.

Canada and the US had an agreement that if Canadian soil was attacked the US would consider it an attack on themselves and do all they could to stop it. The Canadians had agreed to do the same if the US was attack, and made good by declaring war on Japan as soon as news of the Pearl Harbour bombings reached the government.

[Nipplestockings]

Fucking christ. Just because a nation had the capability to get troops landed on American shores did not mean they had the capability to stage a full blown invasion.

Japan was in NO shape to invade the mainland US, and they knew it. They never had any intentions to invade the mainland US. The only reason they attacked pearl harbor was to buy themselves some time by attempting to destroy the US Pacific fleet so they could invade the Philippines and get themselves natural resources and precious metals that they needed desperately to continue their war effort in the asia-pacific region.

Germany could have possibly staged a small scale invasion of the US but they would never have made any progress. It would have been much like an invasion of Russia except for the fact that there was a huge Ocean in the way, there would be hostile naval activity all along the way, and then they would have to tackle the monolith that was the USA.

The US was fully prepared for an invasion, and there were so many obstacles preventing any Axis power from invading that it would never have been worth it.

[Blobmania]

Spoiler

Germans fighting for their country? bullshit. Every German in the army knew that their country had declared unprovoked wars on peaceful nations and that Germany had no legitimate reason to be fighting. They also must have known their country was committing crimes against humanity, or did they think all the Jews, homosexuals and ethnic and religious minorities just vanished into thin air?

There are also all the atrocities the Wehrmacht committed.

The myth of the "clean Wehrmacht" has been completely disproven and I recommend you do some reading on it. I'd start with the book The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality. There are plenty of articles online, as well.

[close]

That's a pretty extreme view. Whilst they may have been aware of it, I personally believe that the large majority of those directly involved only actually did what they did because of the relative lack of responsibility the idea of "following orders" gives. At the end of the day people can be pressured into doing almost anything at the request of an authority figure, even without the added incentive of being tried and shot if they refused. Those not directly involved may well have believed many of the stories to be exaggerated - after all, the army being what it was they can't have been given too much free time to mingle with civilians, and both world wars are notorious for the level of propaganda and censorship that many governments imposed upon their people.

If you've not looked into it before, I suggest reading up on Milgram's experiment on authority figures. I studied it in college a couple of years ago and it really helped me understand how events like the holocaust could have taken place when the majority of any population must surely see how disgusting those events were.

I'd also like to add before this topic gets out of hand that I've already been receiving reports about posts here. Please lets try and keep this as a reasonable discussion, and be open to tempering any extremist views on either side if there's a chance it may offend people.

[ClearlyInvsible]

Canada was a British Dominion. Take over Canada, you got a nice place to raid the US. Heck, if the Germans waited 5 years to replenish they could have taken out the western US WITH AID.

Why is everyone talking like each nation would work on their own? They're part of an ALLIANCE, they would COORDINATE. It would be 5/6 on 1!

[kpetschulat]

I look at the matter in a literal way. You saying that Germans fighting for Germany is bullshit, that's just a whole level of stupid. If you don't think Germans were fighting to keep Germany afloat, then I don't know what to say. Mind you, Hitler brought Germany out of the one of the greatest depressions in history, where people had to haul a wheelbarrow of money to feed their family for the night. Germans fought for what they knew was right, not was right to one man.

I took extreme offense in what you said, and that's clear to all of us. Don't say shit like that... How would feel if someone said you're home country's soldiers fought for "bullshit" and were fighting a lost cause, whether present or past? How would you feel if someone generalized your country's army to the ideals and intentions of 1 man, whether present or past? I'm sure you'd be just as pissed off as I am.

And, don't tell me I can't look at something in an objective way, especially when all you're saying is ridiculous generalizations.

[Docm30]

Canada was a British Dominion. Take over Canada, you got a nice place to raid the US. Heck, if the Germans waited 5 years to replenish they could have taken out the western US WITH AID.

As I just said, the US and Canada had an agreement that any attack on Canadian soil would be regarded as a declaration of war on the US, so it wouldn't be possible to attack Canada without American intervention.

kpetschulat, how can you possibly say Hitler brought Germany out of the depression? Germany was left in absolute ruin by him. Any wartime boost to the economy was due to the use of hundreds of thousands of slave labourers and the driving of Jews and minorities out of their jobs, to be replaced by "Aryan" Germans.

When I say that the idea of Germans fight for their country is bullshit, I mean the idea that that was a innocent and justified thing to do is bullshit. They probably were fighting for the benefit of their country, but they knew it was at the cost of mankind and that horrible things were involved.

I don't mean to condemn every German that fought in the war, most were probably alright guys and there were some truly great humans in the armies of Germany and Japan, but their fighting in the war was, in my opinion, an inherently wrong thing to do and a great mark on anyone's reputation.

Oh, and don't take the word "bullshit" wrong. Where I'm from it's a fairly innocuous word used in the same way as "nonsense".

[Kator Viridian]

Germans fighting for their country? bullshit. Every German in the army knew that their country had declared unprovoked wars on peaceful nations and that Germany had no legitimate reason to be fighting. They also must have known their country was committing crimes against humanity, or did they think all the Jews, homosexuals and ethnic and religious minorities just vanished into thin air?

There are also all the atrocities the Wehrmacht committed.

The myth of the "clean Wehrmacht" has been completely disproven and I recommend you do some reading on it. I'd start with the book The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality. There are plenty of articles online, as well.

*facedesk*

You know the Wehrmacht stood for more than just "Those SS officers that commited atrocities".

After just stating "Don't lump all Americans together" you go and contradict that with your statements ... please re-assess.

Canada was a British Dominion. Take over Canada, you got a nice place to raid the US. Heck, if the Germans waited 5 years to replenish they could have taken out the western US WITH AID.

As I just said, the US and Canada had an agreement that any attack on Canadian soil would be regarded as a declaration of war on the US, so it wouldn't be possible to attack Canada without American intervention.

kpetschulat, how can you possibly say Hitler brought Germany out of the depression? Germany was left in absolute ruin by him. Any wartime boost to the economy was due to the use of hundreds of thousands of slave labourers and the driving of Jews and minorities out of their jobs, to be replaced by "Aryan" Germans.

When I say that the idea of Germans fight for their country is bullshit, I mean the idea that that was a innocent and justified thing to do is bullshit. They probably were fighting for the benefit of their country, but they knew it was at the cost of mankind and that horrible things were involved.

I don't mean to condemn every German that fought in the war, most were probably alright guys and there were some truly great humans in the armies of Germany and Japan, but their fighting in the war was, in my opinion, an inherently wrong thing to do and a great mark on anyone's reputation.

Oh, and don't take the word "bullshit" wrong. Where I'm from it's a fairly innocuous word used in the same way as "nonsense".

Ummm right, during the Depression caused by collapses in the US economy Germany along with Italy were the first to pull themselves out through dictatorship and re-organisation and re-instatement of currency. Also the concentration of building up industry and roadways allowed Allowed Germany and Italy to pull itself out of it whilst other democracies were struggling quite heavily.

The quick expansionism into a militaria state meant the Depression was near none existant in these countries.

Please note that the U-boat threat was already at America's door a whole 4 years before it declared war upon Germany ... and its convoys suffered horrifically for it.

Why would it be wrong to fight? Around more than likely 5% of the officers in the German army knew what was happening behind closed doors, you make it sound as if every man knew about what was happening. Tell me how many people in the US army knew Japan was going to be bombed with the Atomic bomb? or How many thousands of British knew about the "Chain home" project in Britain? or how many knew about the Summary officer executions of the SS? ... I would gurentee less than 5% of the officer classes on those current armies ... why? because it was a secret!

Some people don't even know when "Game station" has a sale on ... but you expect the whole german army to know exactly what is happening with the current situation of secrecy? Give me a break.

People in the Army fight because that is what they are paid, trained and told to do ... wether its morally wrong or not.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk[/youtube]

Enjoy Science and Pyschology at its greatest. Don't underestimate what people would do when they are "Ordered" to do it.

[Bluehawk]

Right from the get-go, German regular army forces committed mass shootings against Polish civilians during the '39 invasion, and court-marshals were ceased by Hitler's personal intervention on 4th of October. An estimated 500 towns were burned to the ground and 700 mass-shootings occurred. These sorts of things didn't happen in 1914 when Germans moved into Belgium. The Wehrmacht was waging a different kind of war. I don't even want to get into what happened on the Eastern Front.

[Docm30]

You know the Wehrmacht stood for more than just "Those SS officers that commited atrocities".

Allow me to direct you to the Wehrmachtsausstellung and Wikipedia's article on War crimes of the Wehrmacht.

The Wehrmacht was responsible for a huge number of war crimes and violations of international law. There was also no way that the average German, and by extension the average German soldier, was ignorant of the crimes being committed by their country. There was no way they missed Kristallnacht or other mass removals of Jews and minorities, or the uses of hundreds of thousands of slave labourers. There's no way word didn't spread through the Wehrmachts ranks of the war crimes being committed by themselves and the political armies. There's no way they thought their country was defending itself. There was no way.

[Japan]

Most Americans never say that America won WWII. They are taught in high school saying that the Allies won WWII.
And please move away from the war crimes. That is irrelevant to the thread.

[Millander]

This thread is saying the same thing as if every American is fat and lazy. This kid made this thread on a principle that every single american thinks America won the war alone. Its obvious that this kid does not know what he is talking about and has never been to America and discussed this with anybody. 

 Its kind of a dead give away since he explained that he just copy and pasted the article anyways.

[Duuring]

Well this was an intresting read.

Docm, I know you're just playing devils advocate, and it's impossible to convince you.

Anyway, world war 2 is NOT my forté, so I'm not gonna get involved. Btw, my family was liberated by Canadians, Brits and Gurkhas... So thank you, those people!

[Landrik]

With Docm's logic, American soldiers were intentionally fighting for American imperialism and FDR's warmongering bloodthirst. What about allied warcrimes? Not saying this to make anything the OKW and others did any less, but the victor is easily forgiven.

No Axis country would have EVER invaded mainland US or Canada. Too much sea and even if the Axis won in Europe and Asia, they would've had to rebuild and recuperate and deal with all the shitty politics that was going on, such as keeping allies and maintaining puppet states. There was a lot of partisans very much active in Axis occupied Europe. Hell, even Germany was ill-suited for war in 1939. Their aircraft were already outdated and they had a slim selection of shoddy tanks, with most of their force being "liberated" Czech tanks.

A very large portion of German soldiers in WWII were foreign, including Volksdeutsch (From a large assortment of nationalities), Czechs, Slovakians, and Spanish... in the Wehrmacht. Not to mention the 20-30 foreign divisions of SS "Freiwillige". A common phrase I've heard from many first person accounts and interviews in many different ways are, "We fought the Bolsheviks to keep Communism out of Europe." Many American-captured Germans were being trained and rearmed by orders from Patton to prepare to fight the Russians, however we all know what played out: immediate Cold War. Early on, that was just the people being swindled into Hitler's grand speeches, taking revenge on the French and English in a matter of pride and shoving the pain of losing WWI back on their conquerors. For Poland it was also supremely nationalistic, restoring Prussia and yes - recolonizing the "German lands" they were expelled from after WWI.

--

Did America win WWII alone? Fuck no. Any half-wit knows that's bullshit. However, the American contributions both militarily and industrially were huge. Main point being the lend-lease programs to the UK and Russia, helping feed millions of Russian soldiers who would've probably starved with their communication networks being crushed early in Barbarossa and the winter of '41. They also helped clothe and supply the Russians with heavy weapons, paled in comparison to when the T-34 began in full production, its design being revolutionary both on the battlefield as well as in the factory plant.

[Augy]

It was a combined effort by all means.
Americans were the Arsenal which kept the war funded and supplied, british intelligence for supporting resistance groups and their other duties, the Soviets bled the German warmachine dry.

What angers me is that Truman became Roosevelts successor, he was a total retard and is responsible for the way America demonised the Soviets and progressive ideas.
Henry Wallace would be a far greater president who wouldve made a different country than the US is known for and very likely no silly cold war.

[Marsh]

Ok here's my view. I am British and I can understand why you'd like to think america thinks they won. But it's clear they don't.

On the subject of who won. It was a joint effort between all the nations. The British army could sill have lost in Agrica if America didn't step in. British would have lost the battle of British without the pressure buildin on the eastern front. America would not have won in the east without the british and Australian forces attacking the Japanese in Burma, making tem fight on two fronts.

It was an allied victory. Nothing more or less.

The final push on the German forces was the Russian push into Berlin, and they captured it. They, officially won the war but any soldier from

Any army fighting will tell you it's an allied victory and I agree.