Author Topic: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019  (Read 4598 times)

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Offline Drake

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2019, 07:21:57 pm »
@Drake surely if GF and duel skills are the same then you have no reason to make the distinction here about the categories? It renders everything you say pointless

Duel skill and GF skill can't be the same, since i've stated they do not exist (Quote below).

Groupfighting skill doesn't exist, same for duel skills.

NW is a team based game. One could argue Mount & Blade in and of itself is a team based game.
Just like in CS or League. Sure there are 1v1s in both those games but that doesn't define the game, it's only a part of it.


Can't speak for CS or League. M&B has a team based competition scene but remember fralla, i've said the game mechanics is 2 player induced, Player A and Player B. Only player can kill or impact only one else at a time t. it's how the game is designed.
 

Offline Golden.

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2019, 07:22:30 pm »
Spoiler
Groupfighting skill doesn't exist, same for duel skills.
There's only one set of skill, which is your melee habits/pattern of bayonet handling and capacities, and regularity excuting these capacities which you operate in both of theses combat format, since we operate the same movements every time in very short moments whatever the format, skill is in fact vastly more tested under duel situations than groupfighting situation, both can be interesting, in fact gf is a set of very fast paced one on one situations, long story short, your list is fatally flawed by an partial ignorance of the actual skill nature (which is indivisible).

What you are saying is barely even comprehensible, but if i'm trying my hardest I can strain about the smallest amount of tenuous sense out of it. First of all don't talk about melee as if it's some kind of contemporary socialistic philosophy or as if you should be lecturing it at Oxford.

There is vastly more to group fighting then dueling, proven by anyone who is able to look at it without bias. If you could shed your ego and your only last hope for remaining relevant you might understand the dueling is completely patience based at high level.

There is no such thing as no skill in either and no such thing as pattern mastering or whatever other nonsensical nonsense you and your gang want to come up with. The fact is group fighting is pretty simple but when at higher levels you can reach some more complex situations. Most of it however is based upon teamwork at this level since I would expect any player playing in semi-finals or above to have mastered the game. The only thing deciding who is winning is teamwork and play styles. It's as simple as that. And as recent tournaments show and recent performances show you and ak47 are weak and are currently playing at a far, far worse team synergy and team work level than any other teams. So stop making up stupid excuses and reasons and change your team/playstyle thanks. Btw this list is not flawed for any of those reasons just opinionated doesn't mean it's wrong it's an opinion.
Your post is mostly non-sense, trying to argue with things not related to my initial message, your message features also personal opinion about me and my team, which might be the sign of underneath bias. Regarding ak47 and recent relevance, the last community tournament, has actually be won by ak47 members, it's a fact which you can verify.
So let's get back to the initial mean, which was that this lists tries to elaborate a mechanical skill list based on the fact that there would be "groupfighting skills", then lists up "block, chambers, etc.." which are the game skill, not gf skill, my whole point, is to say we have the same game mechcanical skill in both gf and duel and every other combat format, that skill is indivisible, pattern, camera moves, mouse handling are the same, that mechcanical skill is more accurately seen and evaluated under duel and 1v1 situation for simple reasons.

1) Extra-influence by other players in the final results.
2) In fact, whether you want it or not, GF is a compilation of one one situation, what happen in GF is the result of 2 dependant sources that influence each other at a given time t, Player A and Player B, you can kill only one person at a time, you will and can impact only one skeleton hitbox at a time, there's very fast 1v1 everytime. the "Groupfighting" and "Duel" are simple semantic to refers to combat type, the combat take place in the very same matrice, with the same rules, regarding speed, precision, blocking, etc....? Your mastering is globally the same, now the ending results might differs because of variables, which develop differently in GF or Duel situation.
3) Individual skill list, mean having an individual points of view, means we need to reduce the scope to one individual actions. in term of who's better than who, that means we get to see what people execute technically reduced to their own self only, without extra player influence, and then evaluate the viability and quality of the say moves and skills in the final results of the contest.
It's the basis of the game melee, but in gf, you got multi-source influx to decide who's winning. You can't extrapolate accurately individual mechanical skill from an unindividual contest.


My point is also to say that GF is a mostly, not totally, but mostly flawed scope for judging mechanical game skill mastering accurately such as blocking, kicking, chambering, speed, range with way better solutions existing to do it accurately good.
Though, GF can be used as the top (and unique) way to judge others type of non-technical competence, behavioral competence, like teamwork, but this very list doesn't only do that, it tries to judge what it can't : it's flawed.
[close]

Your post is mostly non-sense, trying to argue with things not related to my initial message, your message features also personal opinion about me and my team, which might be the sign of underneath bias.

My post is referring to your general attitude and other posts you have posted recently not just the one I quoted and I think it's fairly accurate to your current state of mind. It is not personal opinion about you and you team, when you and your team are losing every single recent group fighting tournament that is not opinion, that is fact.


the last community tournament, has actually be won by ak47 members, it's a fact which you can verify.

A 1v1 tournament this is about group fighting. Duels are and always will be completely irrelevant, go over to the FRA sub board and post a duel tournament there and get the pathetic recognition of your fellow duel enthusiasts.

So let's get back to the initial mean, which was that this lists tries to elaborate a mechanical skill list based on the fact that there would be "groupfighting skills", then lists up "block, chambers, etc.." which are the game skill, not gf skill, my whole point, is to say we have the same game mechcanical skill in both gf and duel and every other combat format, that skill is indivisible, pattern, camera moves, mouse handling are the same, that mechcanical skill is more accurately seen and evaluated under duel and 1v1 situation for simple reasons.

Mechanical skill which is completely irrelevant in duels because you are simply waiting for one person to attack so you can land the stun chamber or the block which  stuns them so you can attack this is not skill drake? How is this is anyway skill its a patience game tell me please!!! I'm dying to know how that is skill. All of those mechanical skill's are super relevant in GF.

2) In fact, whether you want it or not, GF is a compilation of one one situation, what happen in GF is the result of 2 dependant sources that influence each other at a given time t, Player A and Player B, you can kill only one person at a time, you will and can impact only one skeleton hitbox at a time, there's very fast 1v1 everytime. the "Groupfighting" and "Duel" are simple semantic to refers to combat type, the combat take place in the very same matrice, with the same rules, regarding speed, precision, blocking, etc....? Your mastering is globally the same, now the ending results might differs because of variables, which develop differently in GF or Duel situation.

Yes you can only hit one person at one time, but this is irrelevant. How is it fast 1v1 every time exactly? When 2v1's exist. when 3v1's exist explain to me how in gods name this is fast 1v1 ??? It is not. It is fucking not. Dueling and gf take place in the same game yes well done Drake yet one involves two people with two ways to attack and two ways to block. The other involves multiple people. This using basic logic makes it more complicated and allows for a higher skill ceiling.

3) Individual skill list, mean having an individual points of view, means we need to reduce the scope to one individual actions. in term of who's better than who, that means we get to see what people execute technically reduced to their own self only, without extra player influence, and then evaluate the viability and quality of the say moves and skills in the final results of the contest.
It's the basis of the game melee, but in gf, you got multi-source influx to decide who's winning. You can't extrapolate accurately individual mechanical skill from an unindividual contest.

This is instantly disproved by looking at any other sport or esport, does it require two footballers to 1v1 to understand their skill set, or two csgo players to 1v1 to understand their skill set no. GF is far more complex BECAUSE it's team based. Individual mechanical skill plays a far bigger part when there are multiple enemies to fight and teammates to work with. Stop lying to yourself and wake up.


My point is also to say that GF is a mostly, not totally, but mostly flawed scope for judging mechanical game skill mastering accurately such as blocking, kicking, chambering, speed, range with way better solutions existing to do it accurately good.
Though, GF can be used as the top (and unique) way to judge others type of non-technical competence, behavioral competence, like teamwork, but this very list doesn't only do that, it tries to judge what it can't : it's flawed.
Duel's can not judge mechanical skill better when it's completely based on patience and TWO ATTACK DIRECTIONS TWO BLOCK DIRECTIONS. In group fighting you eliminate the extremely linear style of play by adding multiple people this forces more aggression forces use of more technical skill such as kicking, chambering speed, range. Range is completely useless in high tier duel unless your opponent just puts his block down which any high tier player wouldn't do in a duel. I could go through each and every mechanic and why it's more  relevant in group fighting, but alas I feel like it's pointless as you and the ak47 gang are about the only ones in the entire community who believe such utter bullshit.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 07:24:27 pm by Golden. »
I never throw high quality ballistic (and they're very aesthethic, you're happy to throw them) stab in gf
you have implied technical aspect in your message, I'll be answering it with some technical accuracy on the duel meta and it's philosophy, tomorrow.

Offline Fwuffy

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2019, 07:24:52 pm »
Duel skill and GF skill can't be the same, since i've stated they do not exist (Quote below).

Groupfighting skill doesn't exist, same for duel skills.

my whole point, is to say we have the same game mechcanical skill in both gf and duel and every other combat format, that skill is indivisible, pattern, camera moves, mouse handling are the same,

Offline Golden.

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2019, 07:26:59 pm »
Tardet mode activated
I never throw high quality ballistic (and they're very aesthethic, you're happy to throw them) stab in gf
you have implied technical aspect in your message, I'll be answering it with some technical accuracy on the duel meta and it's philosophy, tomorrow.

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2019, 07:31:26 pm »
Drake getting oofed back into retirement

Offline Drake

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2019, 07:43:00 pm »
Duel skill and GF skill can't be the same, since i've stated they do not exist (Quote below).

Groupfighting skill doesn't exist, same for duel skills.

my whole point, is to say we have the same game mechcanical skill in both gf and duel and every other combat format, that skill is indivisible, pattern, camera moves, mouse handling are the same,

The sentence state duel and gf are combat format and not a set of skills, that there's no duel skill tree, and gf skill tree, you have skill in the nw game, which you use in combat situation, but what differs duel from gf is the number of people involved, it's a sematic that doesn't change how the game works, it doesn't change the game matrice/servers to which you send your mouse orders .do you have 45 ways of chambering, one for conquest mode, duel mode, 1v1 situation on conquest mode, 2v5 situation on battle mode?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 07:45:21 pm by Drake »
 

Offline Tardet

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2019, 07:45:08 pm »
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often.


Offline Fralla8

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2019, 07:50:18 pm »
Can't speak for CS or League. M&B has a team based competition scene but remember fralla, i've said the game mechanics is 2 player induced, Player A and Player B. Only player can kill or impact only one else at a time t. it's how the game is designed.
It sounds like you've gone full circle and you're back to being a new player... I don't quite understand. There are more mechanics in a gf than in a duel. Beacuse if it is as you say "in fact gf is a set of very fast paced one on one situations" that means that all mechanics in a duel is present in a gf. But there are also mechanics that are specific to gfing. You move your mouse differently in a gf compared to a duel, things such as when you attack different opponent than the one infront of you.

You play GFs and Duels differently mechanically. Or do you play a duel like a gf and like, try to stab someone who isn't there?

There are absolutely "multiple skill trees". You can't learn how to quickblock, 2v1, or backstab in a duel situation.
When are you going to do any of these mentioned things in a duel?

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2019, 07:55:14 pm »
Drake just stop writing bullshit, please. You don't even know what you're saying.

Offline Janne

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2019, 08:16:15 pm »
wtf is this list haahahahahhahahha  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline Drake

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2019, 10:05:15 pm »
Spoiler
I actually thank you a lot golden, to use the "fact" word, that's a post i can happily answer too withtout too much worry :)
Open the spoiler to have the number featured.
Spoiler


Your post is mostly non-sense, trying to argue with things not related to my initial message, your message features also personal opinion about me and my team, which might be the sign of underneath bias.

1) My post is referring to your general attitude and other posts you have posted recently not just the one I quoted and I think it's fairly accurate to your current state of mind. It is not personal opinion about you and you team, when you and your team are losing every single recent group fighting tournament that is not opinion, that is fact.


the last community tournament, has actually be won by ak47 members, it's a fact which you can verify.

2)A 1v1 tournament this is about group fighting. Duels are and always will be completely irrelevant, go over to the FRA sub board and post a duel tournament there and get the pathetic recognition of your fellow duel enthusiasts.

So let's get back to the initial mean, which was that this lists tries to elaborate a mechanical skill list based on the fact that there would be "groupfighting skills", then lists up "block, chambers, etc.." which are the game skill, not gf skill, my whole point, is to say we have the same game mechcanical skill in both gf and duel and every other combat format, that skill is indivisible, pattern, camera moves, mouse handling are the same, that mechcanical skill is more accurately seen and evaluated under duel and 1v1 situation for simple reasons.

3)Mechanical skill which is completely irrelevant in duels because you are simply waiting for one person to attack so you can land the stun chamber or the block which  stuns them so you can attack this is not skill drake? How is this is anyway skill its a patience game tell me please!!! I'm dying to know how that is skill. All of those mechanical skill's are super relevant in GF.

2) In fact, whether you want it or not, GF is a compilation of one one situation, what happen in GF is the result of 2 dependant sources that influence each other at a given time t, Player A and Player B, you can kill only one person at a time, you will and can impact only one skeleton hitbox at a time, there's very fast 1v1 everytime. the "Groupfighting" and "Duel" are simple semantic to refers to combat type, the combat take place in the very same matrice, with the same rules, regarding speed, precision, blocking, etc....? Your mastering is globally the same, now the ending results might differs because of variables, which develop differently in GF or Duel situation.

4)Yes you can only hit one person at one time, but this is irrelevant. How is it fast 1v1 every time exactly? When 2v1's exist. when 3v1's exist explain to me how in gods name this is fast 1v1 ??? It is not. It is fucking not. Dueling and gf take place in the same game yes well done Drake yet one involves two people with two ways to attack and two ways to block. The other involves multiple people. This using basic logic makes it more complicated and allows for a higher skill ceiling.

3) Individual skill list, mean having an individual points of view, means we need to reduce the scope to one individual actions. in term of who's better than who, that means we get to see what people execute technically reduced to their own self only, without extra player influence, and then evaluate the viability and quality of the say moves and skills in the final results of the contest.
It's the basis of the game melee, but in gf, you got multi-source influx to decide who's winning. You can't extrapolate accurately individual mechanical skill from an unindividual contest.

5)This is instantly disproved by looking at any other sport or esport, does it require two footballers to 1v1 to understand their skill set, or two csgo players to 1v1 to understand their skill set no. GF is far more complex BECAUSE it's team based. Individual mechanical skill plays a far bigger part when there are multiple enemies to fight and teammates to work with. Stop lying to yourself and wake up.


My point is also to say that GF is a mostly, not totally, but mostly flawed scope for judging mechanical game skill mastering accurately such as blocking, kicking, chambering, speed, range with way better solutions existing to do it accurately good.
Though, GF can be used as the top (and unique) way to judge others type of non-technical competence, behavioral competence, like teamwork, but this very list doesn't only do that, it tries to judge what it can't : it's flawed.
6)Duel's can not judge mechanical skill better when it's completely based on patience and TWO ATTACK DIRECTIONS TWO BLOCK DIRECTIONS. In group fighting you eliminate the extremely linear style of play by adding multiple people this forces more aggression forces use of more technical skill such as kicking, chambering speed, range. Range is completely useless in high tier duel unless your opponent just puts his block down which any high tier player wouldn't do in a duel. I could go through each and every mechanic and why it's more  relevant in group fighting, but alas I feel like it's pointless as you and the ak47 gang are about the only ones in the entire community who believe such utter bullshit.
[close]

1) First, there's no general attitude since i do come public very rarely those days, i never speak to you on steam, today is exceptional, you'll see, i don't go to fse, which is all argumentating with no insults, statistic shows, besides today argumentation for better truth, i've posted only 3 messages the past month, this can be prooven by going to my account and looking to messages. of the 3 messages  i posted, very marginal thing.

The last tournament i've played was the duel tournament i've played 4 days ago, before that, it's the 2019 m-nwwc which i dropped off few days ago, undefeated, after corrupted host decision directly impacting the tournament sanity and serious, then just before, we jump one year half baby, biggest tournament ever hosted, in early 2018 which i retired after had won it, these can be checked on challonge (real facts). My 3 last tournaments, experience, are both success, in the duel and the nwwc department with 1 years half distance. My actual team is named AK47, and hasn't formally participated in any tournament yet, then how could it have lost, i've personally not lead teams in tournament since 1 year and 7/8 month? So the word fact here is used falsely


1)  Do i really need to answer this ? your point number 2 doesn't make any sense related to the quoted sentence (which a fact stated without anything else), and it's filled with some brainless hostility, but i just feature the fact if any, look here, direct fact linking, : https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=41928.0

hope the future points will have some materials please....

3) I could be a bad boy, and dismiss just by saying that block is a mechanical skill you use every day, or you wouldn't be relevant in both duel or gf situation. I could also say it's acknowledged by the lists makers, which my critics were aimed at in the first placed, they acknowledged themself that the blocking are a skill, since they feature it into the lists, but that wouldn't be fair.
Mechanical skill is relevant in any duel, because any mechanical moves (with your mouse, the very basis) you character apply in the game is the result of your own actions, therefore any outcome happening in the direct result of what you did or didnt. You might say that long series of duel favors some type of mechanical skill more than others, but arguing than mechanical skill isn't featured in duels is simply you absolute fake news of the day. Does chambering, kicking, ranging, swapstabing, blocking, stab ballistic, doesn't happen in duel ? No, it's incredible what your saying golden. Do theses skill are mastered the first day your playing nw? Isn't there anything to learn, is everyone chambering the same, with the same lethality ? Is everyone as good in kick ? Isn't there any learning curve from A to Z ? Of course, the answer to all theses question are obvious, and all of them dismiss your number 3 claim. Not only they happen in duel, but it's the only reasonable place you can for fuck sake, one for all golden, this is the only place you can compress, reduce these skills (in the observatory area) good enough that you can judge them accurately.
The most technical and precise nw skills are needed in the duel combat format, you need to be very precise and with good timing to avoid being chambered. I never throw high quality ballistic (and they're very aesthethic, you're happy to throw them) stab in gf. it's all rush because you need to be speedy. that's the true skill downfall, because rush stab mean we all stab kinda same, without beauty or excentricity and precision. GF stab are ugly, but GF interestings skill are elsewhere don't worry, but tho are unmechanical as i said.


4)
T = time. Understand even if you're 2v1, the coded game mechanics, consider can do only one thing at a time, if a person get stabbed twice, he can take both stabs at T1 and T2 but he can also take both stabs at the same time T1 A and T1 B. the game doesn't allow multiple action at time t1 for one given person. each one has a decision to make at any given time t. the difference in gf is you can be impacted by multiple influx in the ending results, you can be impacted by 2 sources (players), at time T1 A and T1 B, thats mean, you have one T1 to defend yourself, but others people have 2 T1 to kill you. Whatever the T1 skill move you apply, you will not have an accurate judgement of your T1 move since by the nature of the game, you can't answer properly the 2 opponent T1 moves since the game doesn't allow you to, and you inevitably die out.
It doesn't give you the environment to safely judges your basic mechanical abilities and skills, as "boring" as duel might eventually be, one on one situation are the basis for a safer view.


You've talked about gf skill ceiling, that's the best thing you've brought yet, good, it just has nothing to do with my whole argumentation, however in the behavioral area, gf has great skill ceiling,  simply because of mathematics, having more players, and more combination of possibilities, multiply by thousands the outcome possible of what will happen, but that come down to reality possibilities, that can't really be shaped by your individuality since it's a group based format, if i want to keep on math, i can say that math valid one on one aspect, since 100% of the contest ending results, are the consequences of both individualities, remembers the lists is a competition of individual player guessed abilities. Other than one on one,  the individual point of view can't be accurately seen because it will be impacted by thousand of variables, than even the opponents in the lists will not be able to shape, but that's not the biggest point.
The actual biggest point is that whatever happen in GF, it's the result of mechanical actions induced by your mouse from your neo cortex reflex, the fact that gf mathematic allows more possibilities doesn't make it unconnected to the only way, humans in nw, can influence a groupfighting, through individual mouse-action drive by your body motor skill. These motor skills coming from your brain, are the same both in the duel and gf combat type, because there's only one way the game understand your mouse orders, whatever the format.

5)
You're wrong, top sports league test out skill of players aswell in individual stance, but what's most important is that your comparing sport with a coded informatic game, in which we all have same statistic and camera moves (besides if you play inverse) and possibilities . Your also comparing team based sports (under every rules) with a game that mechanics is designed for pure combat.
Spoiler

[close]
and last but not least, skill you use in actual reality, both in team sport or indivudal can be trained solo, why ? because they act with the same motor skill under solo situation reality than in group situation reality, look neymar (not as good, you need the results outcome of a contest), but you still can do it, see here :
As for the rest of your point 5, i've already told you why mechanical skill can't be judged as accurately under group situation, i've showed you that individual capability relevance, which is the base of my today argumentation, is negatively impacted when in group rather than one on one situation. How can you continue to argue, individual mechanical skill plays a bigger role in a groupfighting than in duels.
It's so simple. 2 players. One matrice (the game script by the server). 2 players sends information tho the matrice, (theirs moves), the matrice says who won contest. Cool. We're sure of who did great, there's only 2 player. We can tell to try out precise moves to judge them. 10 players. One matrice. 10 players sends information to the matrice. Cool we have a winners too, but...wait the results has been influenced by 10 people, ok cool why not...but wait, this is an individual mechanical skill lists, there's one rating per player, because ego is a solo story right, so 10 players information outcome, will show ..some very great variable bullshit when it comes to individual mechanical talent. I think at that point i've said any reasonable things possible to make you come closer to the truth golden and the others ones. You play the same mechanical melody in duel and gf combat, you changes your moves decision and behavior depending, but not the mechanical execution which is the talent skill lists should be about, absolutly needed in both type of combat, but with far more judging accuracy potential in one than in the other.

6) I've talked of one on one situations, didn't said an 1 hour ft duel would be best options (not at all), but even that it's far far better than any gf to judge individual mechanical skill, i have given hardly denyable arguments. If you want to make a list in which you are the best player based on recent tournaments win, it's alright once again, because that can relate to a checkable and coherent truth i can check myself, in a context i agree too. But the  mechanical skill's area is something different, hugely falsely viewed by many players, and it undermine the game, people would be better if they understand that, they would improve their own and friend's level, think and train slightly differently, we would have more competing duelist if lots would realize the importance of some skills tool they have to bring/develop rather than shitting on duels. People like me are here just to brough you closer to a more polished truth when it's come to the underlying realities of this game i've performed and studied more than many.

I didn't made the other list, nor asked everyone to.
Doing what i do, i help getting this game better, players more aware, fact right placed, and the ones that want to make fun of french ppl by telling fake news, don't listen at them. You guys are free to believe whoever you want.
[close]
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 10:18:31 pm by Drake »
 

Online Nosswill

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2019, 10:08:26 pm »
God
Darkcore , the coke of noswill and moskito  .. Is their any places remaining in  your mouth ?
'Darkore, Noswill & Moskito. These three names might not mean much to you but in four years, they have built an immense economical empire from scratch. From videogame addicts to worldknown entrepeneurs, here is a report on the backstages of one of the most lucrative business in Germany.'

Offline Rikkert

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2019, 10:18:54 pm »
Jesus take the wheel

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2019, 10:23:37 pm »
Spoiler
I actually thank you a lot golden, to use the "fact" word, that's a post i can happily answer too withtout too much worry :)
Open the spoiler to have the number featured.
Spoiler


Your post is mostly non-sense, trying to argue with things not related to my initial message, your message features also personal opinion about me and my team, which might be the sign of underneath bias.

1) My post is referring to your general attitude and other posts you have posted recently not just the one I quoted and I think it's fairly accurate to your current state of mind. It is not personal opinion about you and you team, when you and your team are losing every single recent group fighting tournament that is not opinion, that is fact.


the last community tournament, has actually be won by ak47 members, it's a fact which you can verify.

2)A 1v1 tournament this is about group fighting. Duels are and always will be completely irrelevant, go over to the FRA sub board and post a duel tournament there and get the pathetic recognition of your fellow duel enthusiasts.

So let's get back to the initial mean, which was that this lists tries to elaborate a mechanical skill list based on the fact that there would be "groupfighting skills", then lists up "block, chambers, etc.." which are the game skill, not gf skill, my whole point, is to say we have the same game mechcanical skill in both gf and duel and every other combat format, that skill is indivisible, pattern, camera moves, mouse handling are the same, that mechcanical skill is more accurately seen and evaluated under duel and 1v1 situation for simple reasons.

3)Mechanical skill which is completely irrelevant in duels because you are simply waiting for one person to attack so you can land the stun chamber or the block which  stuns them so you can attack this is not skill drake? How is this is anyway skill its a patience game tell me please!!! I'm dying to know how that is skill. All of those mechanical skill's are super relevant in GF.

2) In fact, whether you want it or not, GF is a compilation of one one situation, what happen in GF is the result of 2 dependant sources that influence each other at a given time t, Player A and Player B, you can kill only one person at a time, you will and can impact only one skeleton hitbox at a time, there's very fast 1v1 everytime. the "Groupfighting" and "Duel" are simple semantic to refers to combat type, the combat take place in the very same matrice, with the same rules, regarding speed, precision, blocking, etc....? Your mastering is globally the same, now the ending results might differs because of variables, which develop differently in GF or Duel situation.

4)Yes you can only hit one person at one time, but this is irrelevant. How is it fast 1v1 every time exactly? When 2v1's exist. when 3v1's exist explain to me how in gods name this is fast 1v1 ??? It is not. It is fucking not. Dueling and gf take place in the same game yes well done Drake yet one involves two people with two ways to attack and two ways to block. The other involves multiple people. This using basic logic makes it more complicated and allows for a higher skill ceiling.

3) Individual skill list, mean having an individual points of view, means we need to reduce the scope to one individual actions. in term of who's better than who, that means we get to see what people execute technically reduced to their own self only, without extra player influence, and then evaluate the viability and quality of the say moves and skills in the final results of the contest.
It's the basis of the game melee, but in gf, you got multi-source influx to decide who's winning. You can't extrapolate accurately individual mechanical skill from an unindividual contest.

5)This is instantly disproved by looking at any other sport or esport, does it require two footballers to 1v1 to understand their skill set, or two csgo players to 1v1 to understand their skill set no. GF is far more complex BECAUSE it's team based. Individual mechanical skill plays a far bigger part when there are multiple enemies to fight and teammates to work with. Stop lying to yourself and wake up.


My point is also to say that GF is a mostly, not totally, but mostly flawed scope for judging mechanical game skill mastering accurately such as blocking, kicking, chambering, speed, range with way better solutions existing to do it accurately good.
Though, GF can be used as the top (and unique) way to judge others type of non-technical competence, behavioral competence, like teamwork, but this very list doesn't only do that, it tries to judge what it can't : it's flawed.
6)Duel's can not judge mechanical skill better when it's completely based on patience and TWO ATTACK DIRECTIONS TWO BLOCK DIRECTIONS. In group fighting you eliminate the extremely linear style of play by adding multiple people this forces more aggression forces use of more technical skill such as kicking, chambering speed, range. Range is completely useless in high tier duel unless your opponent just puts his block down which any high tier player wouldn't do in a duel. I could go through each and every mechanic and why it's more  relevant in group fighting, but alas I feel like it's pointless as you and the ak47 gang are about the only ones in the entire community who believe such utter bullshit.
[close]

1) First, there's no general attitude since i do come public very rarely those days, i never speak to you on steam, today is exceptional, you'll see, i don't go to fse, which is all argumentating with no insults, statistic shows, besides today argumentation for better truth, i've posted only 3 messages the past month, this can be prooven by going to my account and looking to messages. of the 3 messages  i posted, very marginal thing.

The last tournament i've played was the duel tournament i've played 4 days ago, before that, it's the 2019 m-nwwc which i dropped off few days ago, undefeated, after corrupted host decision directly impacting the tournament sanity and serious, then just before, we jump one year half baby, biggest tournament ever hosted, in early 2018 which i retired after had won it, these can be checked on challonge (real facts). My 3 last tournaments, experience, are both success, in the duel and the nwwc department with 1 years half distance. My actual team is named AK47, and hasn't formally participated in any tournament yet, then how could it have lost, i've personally not lead teams in tournament since 1 year and 7/8 month? So the word fact here is used falsely


1)  Do i really need to answer this ? your point number 2 doesn't make any sense related to the quoted sentence (which a fact stated without anything else), and it's filled with some brainless hostility, but i just feature the fact if any, look here, direct fact linking, : https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=41928.0

hope the future points will have some materials please....

3) I could be a bad boy, and dismiss just by saying that block is a mechanical skill you use every day, or you wouldn't be relevant in both duel or gf situation. I could also say it's acknowledged by the lists makers, which my critics were aimed at in the first placed, they acknowledged themself that the blocking are a skill, since they feature it into the lists, but that wouldn't be fair.
Mechanical skill is relevant in any duel, because any mechanical moves (with your mouse, the very basis) you character apply in the game is the result of your own actions, therefore any outcome happening in the direct result of what you did or didnt. You might say that long series of duel favors some type of mechanical skill more than others, but arguing than mechanical skill isn't featured in duels is simply you absolute fake news of the day. Does chambering, kicking, ranging, swapstabing, blocking, stab ballistic, doesn't happen in duel ? No, it's incredible what your saying golden. Do theses skill are mastered the first day your playing nw? Isn't there anything to learn, is everyone chambering the same, with the same lethality ? Is everyone as good in kick ? Isn't there any learning curve from A to Z ? Of course, the answer to all theses question are obvious, and all of them dismiss your number 3 claim. Not only they happen in duel, but it's the only reasonable place you can for fuck sake, one for all golden, this is the only place you can compress, reduce these skills (in the observatory area) good enough that you can judge them accurately.
The most technical and precise nw skills are needed in the duel combat format, you need to be very precise and with good timing to avoid being chambered. I never throw high quality ballistic (and they're very aesthethic, you're happy to throw them) stab in gf. it's all rush because you need to be speedy. that's the true skill downfall, because rush stab mean we all stab kinda same, without beauty or excentricity and precision. GF stab are ugly, but GF interestings skill are elsewhere don't worry, but tho are unmechanical as i said.


4)
T = time. Understand even if you're 2v1, the coded game mechanics, consider can do only one thing at a time, if a person get stabbed twice, he can take both stabs at T1 and T2 but he can also take both stabs at the same time T1 A and T1 B. the game doesn't allow multiple action at time t1 for one given person. each one has a decision to make at any given time t. the difference in gf is you can be impacted by multiple influx in the ending results, you can be impacted by 2 sources (players), at time T1 A and T1 B, thats mean, you have one T1 to defend yourself, but others people have 2 T1 to kill you. Whatever the T1 skill move you apply, you will not have an accurate judgement of your T1 move since by the nature of the game, you can't answer properly the 2 opponent T1 moves since the game doesn't allow you to, and you inevitably die out.
It doesn't give you the environment to safely judges your basic mechanical abilities and skills, as "boring" as duel might eventually be, one on one situation are the basis for a safer view.


You've talked about gf skill ceiling, that's the best thing you've brought yet, good, it just has nothing to do with my whole argumentation, however in the behavioral area, gf has great skill ceiling,  simply because of mathematics, having more players, and more combination of possibilities, multiply by thousands the outcome possible of what will happen, but that come down to reality possibilities, that can't really be shaped by your individuality since it's a group based format, if i want to keep on math, i can say that math valid one on one aspect, since 100% of the contest ending results, are the consequences of both individualities, remembers the lists is a competition of individual player guessed abilities. Other than one on one,  the individual point of view can't be accurately seen because it will be impacted by thousand of variables, than even the opponents in the lists will not be able to shape, but that's not the biggest point.
The actual biggest point is that whatever happen in GF, it's the result of mechanical actions induced by your mouse from your neo cortex reflex, the fact that gf mathematic allows more possibilities doesn't make it unconnected to the only way, humans in nw, can influence a groupfighting, through individual mouse-action drive by your body motor skill. These motor skills coming from your brain, are the same both in the duel and gf combat type, because there's only one way the game understand your mouse orders, whatever the format.

5)
You're wrong, top sports league test out skill of players aswell in individual stance, but what's most important is that your comparing sport with a coded informatic game, in which we all have same statistic and camera moves (besides if you play inverse) and possibilities . Your also comparing team based sports (under every rules) with a game that mechanics is designed for pure combat.
Spoiler

[close]
and last but not least, skill you use in actual reality, both in team sport or indivudal can be trained solo, why ? because they act with the same motor skill under solo situation reality than in group situation reality, look neymar (not as good, you need the results outcome of a contest), but you still can do it, see here :
As for the rest of your point 5, i've already told you why mechanical skill can't be judged as accurately under group situation, i've showed you that individual capability relevance, which is the base of my today argumentation, is negatively impacted when in group rather than one on one situation. How can you continue to argue, individual mechanical skill plays a bigger role in a groupfighting than in duels.
It's so simple. 2 players. One matrice (the game script by the server). 2 players sends information tho the matrice, (theirs moves), the matrice says who won contest. Cool. We're sure of who did great, there's only 2 player. We can tell to try out precise moves to judge them. 10 players. One matrice. 10 players sends information to the matrice. Cool we have a winners too, but...wait the results has been influenced by 10 people, ok cool why not...but wait, this is an individual mechanical skill lists, there's one rating per player, because ego is a solo story right, so 10 players information outcome, will show ..some very great variable bullshit when it comes to individual mechanical talent. I think at that point i've said any reasonable things possible to make you come closer to the truth golden and the others ones. You play the same mechanical melody in duel and gf combat, you changes your moves decision and behavior depending, but not the mechanical execution which is the talent skill lists should be about, absolutly needed in both type of combat, but with far more judging accuracy potential in one than in the other.

6) I've talked of one on one situations, didn't said an 1 hour ft duel would be best options (not at all), but even that it's far far better than any gf to judge individual mechanical skill, i have given hardly denyable arguments. If you want to make a list in which you are the best player based on recent tournaments win, it's alright once again, because that can relate to a checkable and coherent truth i can check myself, in a context i agree too. But the  mechanical skill's area is something different, hugely falsely viewed by many players, and it undermine the game, people would be better if they understand that, they would improve their own and friend's level, think and train slightly differently, we would have more competing duelist if lots would realize the importance of some skills tool they have to bring/develop rather than shitting on duels. People like me are here just to brough you closer to a more polished truth when it's come to the underlying realities of this game i've performed and studied more than many.

I didn't made the other list, nor asked everyone to.
Doing what i do, i help getting this game better, players more aware, fact right placed, and the ones that want to make fun of french ppl by telling fake news, don't listen at them. You guys are free to believe whoever you want.
[close]

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One of the best side blockers in the game. Often reffered as 'the Sideblock King'.


Online Shadey

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Re: The Council's Melee Rankings | Official | 2019
« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2019, 10:26:56 pm »
Spoiler
I actually thank you a lot golden, to use the "fact" word, that's a post i can happily answer too withtout too much worry :)
Open the spoiler to have the number featured.
Spoiler


Your post is mostly non-sense, trying to argue with things not related to my initial message, your message features also personal opinion about me and my team, which might be the sign of underneath bias.

1) My post is referring to your general attitude and other posts you have posted recently not just the one I quoted and I think it's fairly accurate to your current state of mind. It is not personal opinion about you and you team, when you and your team are losing every single recent group fighting tournament that is not opinion, that is fact.


the last community tournament, has actually be won by ak47 members, it's a fact which you can verify.

2)A 1v1 tournament this is about group fighting. Duels are and always will be completely irrelevant, go over to the FRA sub board and post a duel tournament there and get the pathetic recognition of your fellow duel enthusiasts.

So let's get back to the initial mean, which was that this lists tries to elaborate a mechanical skill list based on the fact that there would be "groupfighting skills", then lists up "block, chambers, etc.." which are the game skill, not gf skill, my whole point, is to say we have the same game mechcanical skill in both gf and duel and every other combat format, that skill is indivisible, pattern, camera moves, mouse handling are the same, that mechcanical skill is more accurately seen and evaluated under duel and 1v1 situation for simple reasons.

3)Mechanical skill which is completely irrelevant in duels because you are simply waiting for one person to attack so you can land the stun chamber or the block which  stuns them so you can attack this is not skill drake? How is this is anyway skill its a patience game tell me please!!! I'm dying to know how that is skill. All of those mechanical skill's are super relevant in GF.

2) In fact, whether you want it or not, GF is a compilation of one one situation, what happen in GF is the result of 2 dependant sources that influence each other at a given time t, Player A and Player B, you can kill only one person at a time, you will and can impact only one skeleton hitbox at a time, there's very fast 1v1 everytime. the "Groupfighting" and "Duel" are simple semantic to refers to combat type, the combat take place in the very same matrice, with the same rules, regarding speed, precision, blocking, etc....? Your mastering is globally the same, now the ending results might differs because of variables, which develop differently in GF or Duel situation.

4)Yes you can only hit one person at one time, but this is irrelevant. How is it fast 1v1 every time exactly? When 2v1's exist. when 3v1's exist explain to me how in gods name this is fast 1v1 ??? It is not. It is fucking not. Dueling and gf take place in the same game yes well done Drake yet one involves two people with two ways to attack and two ways to block. The other involves multiple people. This using basic logic makes it more complicated and allows for a higher skill ceiling.

3) Individual skill list, mean having an individual points of view, means we need to reduce the scope to one individual actions. in term of who's better than who, that means we get to see what people execute technically reduced to their own self only, without extra player influence, and then evaluate the viability and quality of the say moves and skills in the final results of the contest.
It's the basis of the game melee, but in gf, you got multi-source influx to decide who's winning. You can't extrapolate accurately individual mechanical skill from an unindividual contest.

5)This is instantly disproved by looking at any other sport or esport, does it require two footballers to 1v1 to understand their skill set, or two csgo players to 1v1 to understand their skill set no. GF is far more complex BECAUSE it's team based. Individual mechanical skill plays a far bigger part when there are multiple enemies to fight and teammates to work with. Stop lying to yourself and wake up.


My point is also to say that GF is a mostly, not totally, but mostly flawed scope for judging mechanical game skill mastering accurately such as blocking, kicking, chambering, speed, range with way better solutions existing to do it accurately good.
Though, GF can be used as the top (and unique) way to judge others type of non-technical competence, behavioral competence, like teamwork, but this very list doesn't only do that, it tries to judge what it can't : it's flawed.
6)Duel's can not judge mechanical skill better when it's completely based on patience and TWO ATTACK DIRECTIONS TWO BLOCK DIRECTIONS. In group fighting you eliminate the extremely linear style of play by adding multiple people this forces more aggression forces use of more technical skill such as kicking, chambering speed, range. Range is completely useless in high tier duel unless your opponent just puts his block down which any high tier player wouldn't do in a duel. I could go through each and every mechanic and why it's more  relevant in group fighting, but alas I feel like it's pointless as you and the ak47 gang are about the only ones in the entire community who believe such utter bullshit.
[close]

1) First, there's no general attitude since i do come public very rarely those days, i never speak to you on steam, today is exceptional, you'll see, i don't go to fse, which is all argumentating with no insults, statistic shows, besides today argumentation for better truth, i've posted only 3 messages the past month, this can be prooven by going to my account and looking to messages. of the 3 messages  i posted, very marginal thing.

The last tournament i've played was the duel tournament i've played 4 days ago, before that, it's the 2019 m-nwwc which i dropped off few days ago, undefeated, after corrupted host decision directly impacting the tournament sanity and serious, then just before, we jump one year half baby, biggest tournament ever hosted, in early 2018 which i retired after had won it, these can be checked on challonge (real facts). My 3 last tournaments, experience, are both success, in the duel and the nwwc department with 1 years half distance. My actual team is named AK47, and hasn't formally participated in any tournament yet, then how could it have lost, i've personally not lead teams in tournament since 1 year and 7/8 month? So the word fact here is used falsely


1)  Do i really need to answer this ? your point number 2 doesn't make any sense related to the quoted sentence (which a fact stated without anything else), and it's filled with some brainless hostility, but i just feature the fact if any, look here, direct fact linking, : https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=41928.0

hope the future points will have some materials please....

3) I could be a bad boy, and dismiss just by saying that block is a mechanical skill you use every day, or you wouldn't be relevant in both duel or gf situation. I could also say it's acknowledged by the lists makers, which my critics were aimed at in the first placed, they acknowledged themself that the blocking are a skill, since they feature it into the lists, but that wouldn't be fair.
Mechanical skill is relevant in any duel, because any mechanical moves (with your mouse, the very basis) you character apply in the game is the result of your own actions, therefore any outcome happening in the direct result of what you did or didnt. You might say that long series of duel favors some type of mechanical skill more than others, but arguing than mechanical skill isn't featured in duels is simply you absolute fake news of the day. Does chambering, kicking, ranging, swapstabing, blocking, stab ballistic, doesn't happen in duel ? No, it's incredible what your saying golden. Do theses skill are mastered the first day your playing nw? Isn't there anything to learn, is everyone chambering the same, with the same lethality ? Is everyone as good in kick ? Isn't there any learning curve from A to Z ? Of course, the answer to all theses question are obvious, and all of them dismiss your number 3 claim. Not only they happen in duel, but it's the only reasonable place you can for fuck sake, one for all golden, this is the only place you can compress, reduce these skills (in the observatory area) good enough that you can judge them accurately.
The most technical and precise nw skills are needed in the duel combat format, you need to be very precise and with good timing to avoid being chambered. I never throw high quality ballistic (and they're very aesthethic, you're happy to throw them) stab in gf. it's all rush because you need to be speedy. that's the true skill downfall, because rush stab mean we all stab kinda same, without beauty or excentricity and precision. GF stab are ugly, but GF interestings skill are elsewhere don't worry, but tho are unmechanical as i said.


4)
T = time. Understand even if you're 2v1, the coded game mechanics, consider can do only one thing at a time, if a person get stabbed twice, he can take both stabs at T1 and T2 but he can also take both stabs at the same time T1 A and T1 B. the game doesn't allow multiple action at time t1 for one given person. each one has a decision to make at any given time t. the difference in gf is you can be impacted by multiple influx in the ending results, you can be impacted by 2 sources (players), at time T1 A and T1 B, thats mean, you have one T1 to defend yourself, but others people have 2 T1 to kill you. Whatever the T1 skill move you apply, you will not have an accurate judgement of your T1 move since by the nature of the game, you can't answer properly the 2 opponent T1 moves since the game doesn't allow you to, and you inevitably die out.
It doesn't give you the environment to safely judges your basic mechanical abilities and skills, as "boring" as duel might eventually be, one on one situation are the basis for a safer view.


You've talked about gf skill ceiling, that's the best thing you've brought yet, good, it just has nothing to do with my whole argumentation, however in the behavioral area, gf has great skill ceiling,  simply because of mathematics, having more players, and more combination of possibilities, multiply by thousands the outcome possible of what will happen, but that come down to reality possibilities, that can't really be shaped by your individuality since it's a group based format, if i want to keep on math, i can say that math valid one on one aspect, since 100% of the contest ending results, are the consequences of both individualities, remembers the lists is a competition of individual player guessed abilities. Other than one on one,  the individual point of view can't be accurately seen because it will be impacted by thousand of variables, than even the opponents in the lists will not be able to shape, but that's not the biggest point.
The actual biggest point is that whatever happen in GF, it's the result of mechanical actions induced by your mouse from your neo cortex reflex, the fact that gf mathematic allows more possibilities doesn't make it unconnected to the only way, humans in nw, can influence a groupfighting, through individual mouse-action drive by your body motor skill. These motor skills coming from your brain, are the same both in the duel and gf combat type, because there's only one way the game understand your mouse orders, whatever the format.

5)
You're wrong, top sports league test out skill of players aswell in individual stance, but what's most important is that your comparing sport with a coded informatic game, in which we all have same statistic and camera moves (besides if you play inverse) and possibilities . Your also comparing team based sports (under every rules) with a game that mechanics is designed for pure combat.
Spoiler

[close]
and last but not least, skill you use in actual reality, both in team sport or indivudal can be trained solo, why ? because they act with the same motor skill under solo situation reality than in group situation reality, look neymar (not as good, you need the results outcome of a contest), but you still can do it, see here :
As for the rest of your point 5, i've already told you why mechanical skill can't be judged as accurately under group situation, i've showed you that individual capability relevance, which is the base of my today argumentation, is negatively impacted when in group rather than one on one situation. How can you continue to argue, individual mechanical skill plays a bigger role in a groupfighting than in duels.
It's so simple. 2 players. One matrice (the game script by the server). 2 players sends information tho the matrice, (theirs moves), the matrice says who won contest. Cool. We're sure of who did great, there's only 2 player. We can tell to try out precise moves to judge them. 10 players. One matrice. 10 players sends information to the matrice. Cool we have a winners too, but...wait the results has been influenced by 10 people, ok cool why not...but wait, this is an individual mechanical skill lists, there's one rating per player, because ego is a solo story right, so 10 players information outcome, will show ..some very great variable bullshit when it comes to individual mechanical talent. I think at that point i've said any reasonable things possible to make you come closer to the truth golden and the others ones. You play the same mechanical melody in duel and gf combat, you changes your moves decision and behavior depending, but not the mechanical execution which is the talent skill lists should be about, absolutly needed in both type of combat, but with far more judging accuracy potential in one than in the other.

6) I've talked of one on one situations, didn't said an 1 hour ft duel would be best options (not at all), but even that it's far far better than any gf to judge individual mechanical skill, i have given hardly denyable arguments. If you want to make a list in which you are the best player based on recent tournaments win, it's alright once again, because that can relate to a checkable and coherent truth i can check myself, in a context i agree too. But the  mechanical skill's area is something different, hugely falsely viewed by many players, and it undermine the game, people would be better if they understand that, they would improve their own and friend's level, think and train slightly differently, we would have more competing duelist if lots would realize the importance of some skills tool they have to bring/develop rather than shitting on duels. People like me are here just to brough you closer to a more polished truth when it's come to the underlying realities of this game i've performed and studied more than many.

I didn't made the other list, nor asked everyone to.
Doing what i do, i help getting this game better, players more aware, fact right placed, and the ones that want to make fun of french ppl by telling fake news, don't listen at them. You guys are free to believe whoever you want.
[close]

ye fuck off is anyone going to read this shit