Author Topic: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)  (Read 11383 times)

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Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2019, 11:57:32 pm »
My experience of competitive play within NW was an overly unrealistic and restrictive one. If you are hoping to encourage those rules, and to only cater for the current NW Community in competitive play then you'll do your game a disservice.

Offline DaMonkey

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2019, 12:51:41 am »
From what I understand, actual Melee was very rare in the ACW. How do you stop it becoming the mainstream for less skillful teams and thus turning what should be a Musketry game into a hand to hand combat game?

Hopefully not by doing something silly and making one mechanic worse (let's say perhaps requiring two stabs to kill people for some reason) instead of making the other mechanic better (improving gunplay / opening engagement distances).
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Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2019, 12:13:00 pm »
Hopefully not by doing something silly and making one mechanic worse (let's say perhaps requiring two stabs to kill people for some reason) instead of making the other mechanic better (improving gunplay / opening engagement distances).

Perhaps you think I'm some sort of WoRs fanboy, who'll jump to its defence.... I actually agree with you, the Melee in WoRs is a joke. I'm also surprised by the comment from FSE that they think WoRs is ultra realistic?!? Whats realistic about not being able to crouch and move? Whats realistic about having to reload again if the reload was interrupted? Whats realistic about not being able to gain more ammo? The list goes on.....

As I say I'm looking forward to seeing how both games approach the genre and how they deal with the issues both games face.

Offline John Price

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2019, 12:24:51 pm »
Whats realistic about not being able to gain more ammo? The list goes on.....
Js that was quite common for that age of fighting.

Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2019, 12:35:05 pm »
Whats realistic about not being able to gain more ammo? The list goes on.....
Js that was quite common for that age of fighting.

Not true, it was quite common to take it off the dead or wounded!

Offline Noorwegian

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2019, 01:46:58 pm »
My experience of competitive play within NW was an overly unrealistic and restrictive one. If you are hoping to encourage those rules, and to only cater for the current NW Community in competitive play then you'll do your game a disservice.

What did you not like about competitive play in NW? What did you find restrictive? How would you like to see competitive play in BCoF?

Hopefully not by doing something silly and making one mechanic worse (let's say perhaps requiring two stabs to kill people for some reason) instead of making the other mechanic better (improving gunplay / opening engagement distances).
Perhaps you think I'm some sort of WoRs fanboy, who'll jump to its defence.... I actually agree with you, the Melee in WoRs is a joke. I'm also surprised by the comment from FSE that they think WoRs is ultra realistic?!? Whats realistic about not being able to crouch and move? Whats realistic about having to reload again if the reload was interrupted? Whats realistic about not being able to gain more ammo? The list goes on.....

From what I understand, WoR is trying to be a realistic game, and more of a re-enactment simulator than a game, really. The gameplay in WoR is really restrictive, as they try to force everyone to work together and play in this one 'realistic', roleplay-style vision that they have for their game. FSE does not have this vision for BCoF, and like Vincenzo commented earlier, FSE is making the mechanics of the game for gameplay reasons, so that the game is fun to play, and the players themselves choose how to play it.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 01:49:47 pm by Noorwegian »

Offline Duuring

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2019, 01:55:45 pm »
Quote
WoR is trying to be a realistic game, and more of a re-enactment simulator than a game, really.

That's the thing though. WoR is not a civil war simulator, it's a re-enactor simulator. Including all the silly mistakes and assumptions a lot of re-enactors make. Their loading animation takes the freaking cake though. They made a loading animation that is not only entirely inaccurate, but it's also more difficult to do then just following the actual drillbook.

Offline Dazzer

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2019, 03:55:41 pm »
Why is it inaccurate?

Offline TheBoberton

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2019, 06:26:01 pm »
Assuming you're asking about the reload animation, rather than the game in general, it's in the handling of the ramrod. When reversing the ramrod in accordance with the drill manuals (Literally every drill manual, dating back to at least the French Napoleonic drill), as well as in accordance with common sense, you reverse the ramrod by simply turning the hand that withdrew it from the gun. In War of Rights, you do so by transferring the ramrod from your right to your left hand, then back.

Simply put, they added more steps into the process, and if you attempted to reload the way the game portrays in real life under fire, you would drop your ramrod. Multiple times.

They and their community then attempted to defend the choice by stating that troops would disregard the drill manual and willingly introduce complexity into their manual of arms.
It might have been amusing if it hadn't been so Goddamn frustrating. Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory.

Offline TrustyJam

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2019, 06:47:28 pm »
Assuming you're asking about the reload animation, rather than the game in general, it's in the handling of the ramrod. When reversing the ramrod in accordance with the drill manuals (Literally every drill manual, dating back to at least the French Napoleonic drill), as well as in accordance with common sense, you reverse the ramrod by simply turning the hand that withdrew it from the gun. In War of Rights, you do so by transferring the ramrod from your right to your left hand, then back.

Simply put, they added more steps into the process, and if you attempted to reload the way the game portrays in real life under fire, you would drop your ramrod. Multiple times.

They and their community then attempted to defend the choice by stating that troops would disregard the drill manual and willingly introduce complexity into their manual of arms.
It might have been amusing if it hadn't been so Goddamn frustrating. Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory.

Here's my reply from the thread you posted:

We've forwarded this topic to our Historical Advisor. Thank you for the report. We'll look into it in the future but at the moment we have bigger fish to fry animation wise.

- Trusty

Hardly trying to defend anything I'd say.

Offline TheBoberton

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2019, 07:13:33 pm »
You were indeed not defending it; my inclusion of the entire development team in that condemnation was poorly considered.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2019, 07:26:01 pm »
We actually tried it out with our 1777 Charlevilles. It's not just adding more steps, it's making the reload so much more difficult. You're giving the ramrod with your free hand to the hand holding the gun. Now, suppose I were to do this while still holding the musket between thumb and finger, I would have to apparantly hold the ramrod with my middle finger, ringfinger or pinky. You wil most likely drop the ramrod right here. Stuffing it between the index finger and musket also obviously doesn't work.

They literally could have realized this is a retarded reloading animation by holding a gun and trying it out.

Two more issues with the reloading animation.

One, the way the player rams down is just ridicious. He appears to apply absolutely no force, holding the ramrod between thumb and index finger and just wiggling a bit. That's just not how it works. Drill manuals usually tell you to forcefully ram down the charge with one or two moves. In the French Napoleonic manual for example, you hold the ramrod in your hand with all fingers over it and the thumb firmly on top to apply as much force as possible.

Two, the stupid pinky finger at the end. Try pushing down a ramrod with just a pinky. It won't work. You have to use the whole hand, it's just that the pinky finger is the finger that actually touches the ramrod. A wrong interpretation of the drill manual. A re-enactorism, with other words.

Assuming you're asking about the reload animation, rather than the game in general, it's in the handling of the ramrod. When reversing the ramrod in accordance with the drill manuals (Literally every drill manual, dating back to at least the French Napoleonic drill), as well as in accordance with common sense, you reverse the ramrod by simply turning the hand that withdrew it from the gun. In War of Rights, you do so by transferring the ramrod from your right to your left hand, then back.

Simply put, they added more steps into the process, and if you attempted to reload the way the game portrays in real life under fire, you would drop your ramrod. Multiple times.

They and their community then attempted to defend the choice by stating that troops would disregard the drill manual and willingly introduce complexity into their manual of arms.
It might have been amusing if it hadn't been so Goddamn frustrating. Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory.

Here's my reply from the thread you posted:

We've forwarded this topic to our Historical Advisor. Thank you for the report. We'll look into it in the future but at the moment we have bigger fish to fry animation wise.

- Trusty

Hardly trying to defend anything I'd say.

Someone calls out WoR for one of their inaccuracies and TrustyJam appears within a few hours. I don't know what you're paying your informants, but pay them more.

Quote
Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory.

Uh, I actually did read it and I regret doing so. And then people claim the FSE community is toxic.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 07:32:14 pm by Duuring »

Offline TrustyJam

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2019, 07:32:57 pm »
Thank you for your feedback.

My answer remains the same as it was when the thread was created. We will look into it in the future but it is not a priority to us at the moment.

Oh please. I've been a donator of this game for longer than I can remember.

- Trusty

We actually tried it out with our 1777 Charlevilles. It's not just adding more steps, it's making the reload so much more difficult. You're giving the ramrod with your free hand to the hand holding the gun. Now, suppose I were to do this while still holding the musket between thumb and finger, I would have to apparantly hold the ramrod with my middle finger, ringfinger or pinky. You wil most likely drop the ramrod right here. Stuffing it between the index finger and musket also obviously doesn't work.

They literally could have realized this is a retarded reloading animation by holding a gun and trying it out.

Two more issues with the reloading animation.

One, the way the player rams down is just ridicious. He appears to apply absolutely no force, holding the ramrod between thumb and index finger and just wiggling a bit. That's just not how it works. Drill manuals usually tell you to forcefully ram down the charge with one or two moves. In the French Napoleonic manual for example, you hold the ramrod in your hand with all fingers over it and the thumb firmly on top to apply as much force as possible.

Two, the stupid pinky finger at the end. Try pushing down a ramrod with just a pinky. It won't work. You have to use the whole hand, it's just that the pinky finger is the finger that actually touches the ramrod. A wrong interpretation of the drill manual. A re-enactorism, with other words.

Assuming you're asking about the reload animation, rather than the game in general, it's in the handling of the ramrod. When reversing the ramrod in accordance with the drill manuals (Literally every drill manual, dating back to at least the French Napoleonic drill), as well as in accordance with common sense, you reverse the ramrod by simply turning the hand that withdrew it from the gun. In War of Rights, you do so by transferring the ramrod from your right to your left hand, then back.

Simply put, they added more steps into the process, and if you attempted to reload the way the game portrays in real life under fire, you would drop your ramrod. Multiple times.

They and their community then attempted to defend the choice by stating that troops would disregard the drill manual and willingly introduce complexity into their manual of arms.
It might have been amusing if it hadn't been so Goddamn frustrating. Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory.

Here's my reply from the thread you posted:

We've forwarded this topic to our Historical Advisor. Thank you for the report. We'll look into it in the future but at the moment we have bigger fish to fry animation wise.

- Trusty

Hardly trying to defend anything I'd say.

Someone calls out WoR for one of their inaccuracies and TrustyJam appears within a few hours. I don't know what you're paying your informants, but pay them more.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2019, 07:36:53 pm »
I was not replying to you, just putting emphasis on the fact it's retarded and anyone with a gun should be able to tell you that. You might not defend it, but other WoR developers do, and so do so many WoR players. Mind you, you don't even admit it's retarded and wrong, just 'that you will look into it'. Tell me, TrustyJam, do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?

Offline TrustyJam

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2019, 07:41:15 pm »
I was not replying to you, just putting emphasis on the fact it's retarded and anyone with a gun should be able to tell you that. You might not defend it, but other WoR developers do, and so do so many WoR players. Mind you, you don't even admit it's retarded and wrong, just 'that you will look into it'. Tell me, TrustyJam, do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?

Why are you so aggressive in the manner which you conduct yourself?

If you wish for me to provide you with any information please ask me properly without insulting myself and my dev team.

- Trusty