Poll

Could Germany have won on the eastern front?

Yes Easily
2 (14.3%)
No, impossible
6 (42.9%)
Yes But with heavy loss, a pyrrhic victory
6 (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: June 11, 2018, 09:42:55 pm

Author Topic: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?  (Read 4875 times)

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Offline vanKliff

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2018, 11:04:48 pm »
What an intelligent comment.

I'm sure the fact the Soviets did the exact same thing in Eastern/Central Europe post-1945 is irrelevant too.

... Axis (aka german) capabilitys vs Sovjets.... worn out by war and streeching for the last scraps of metall and fuel, mainly able to hold on through forced labour and brilliant thinkers vs Ressourceful nation in goods and people, supported by allies until 45 but also able to hold on through forced labour and brilliant thinkers hmmm...
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Offline Duuring

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2018, 11:10:55 pm »
StevenChilton is right, and I don't say that often : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokot_Autonomy

The Germans recruited MILLIONS of soviet citizens and that's when Hitler didn't even really want to and they opposed and fought the Nationalist movements like in Ukraine.

Offline Harman

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2018, 02:13:51 am »
They weren't really satellite states, they were districts, which were part of the greater Reich which were lead by the indigenous people and supervised by party members (nazis). The occupation of Russia would have, like StevenChilton said consisted of the garrisoning of major cities and strategic points. The notion that a guerilla war would happen is viable, but not for long. The fighters would soon realise that they are fighting for no end result.

Offline junedragon

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2018, 05:52:29 pm »
Spoiler

Far from impossible. The Soviet population and industrial capacity was heavily concentrated West of the Urals (essentially 'European Russia' and Ukraine). Once you hold that then you don't really need to go any further.


You'd need not continue further than that for all the resources... France was completely beaten and surrendered. Russia could still use guerilla warfare or unconventional means to harass the germans, especially if the Russians would still have land to lvie from. It would become a living hell for the Germans and they'd need a huge stabalization force to keep such attacks from happening.

You're assuming the Germans would have personally occupied everything from the Polish border to the Urals. That's not how they did it in WWI after Brest-Litovsk nor how they did it in France. It's very simple: you occupy the valuable bits and set up satellite states over the rest.

Dear failed leaders of mankind,
please follow this armchair advice brought to you by some random goy in an online forum when trying to form another global empire. Just make satellite states, whats so hard about it? I mean, you only need to click "vassalize country" and everything is going to be fine!
Love,
your mom.


I mean..... that what this man



did to Spain, and it totally worked! Tremendous!

Let's just keep comparing Brest-Litovsk which was based on a revolution within Russia itself to another war where an enemy from the outside basically united a whole country by murdering its citizens in the millions.
[close]
Nothing like accusing someone else of making a faulty comparison then comparing a potential Nazi occupation of the USSR territory to Napoleon's occupation of Spain. 130 years of technological development (big difference between covering distance with forced marches and horses vs trains/tanks/vehicles, fighting insurgents with musket/sword armed patrols vs sophisticated aircraft, etc.) and radically different circumstances (notably direct British support for Spanish insurgency, millions of people in soviet regions who hated the Party as much as the Nazis did,  and nepotism leading to incompetent people vaguely related to Napoleon being placed in leadership positions in Spain).
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 05:56:07 pm by junedragon »

Offline DrunkenSpartan

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2018, 08:35:11 pm »
No, impossible.
It's the same old thing since 1916
In your head, in your head they're still fighting
With their tanks and their bombs
And air bombs and their guns
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Offline Conway

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2018, 08:20:33 pm »
If it was a one front war there is a chance they could have one? But not likely even then.

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2018, 10:58:31 pm »
Well Poland was eastern of them.

Offline junedragon

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2018, 01:45:25 am »
If it was a one front war there is a chance they could have one? But not likely even then.

If Germany invades the USSR instead of France in early spring of 1939/1940 and everyone else allows them to do so, von Manstein, Guderian, and Rommel are drinking celebratory vodka shots in Moscow's Kremlin within half a year.

If they invade at 1941 strength ditto but within 2-3 months

« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 01:48:38 am by junedragon »

Offline vanKliff

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2018, 08:37:14 am »
wtf is this men talking about??? Even in 39 Germany couldn´t refuel his armoured forces properly... but YEAH LET´s go all EAST BOYZ, while British Expedetion Force and the whole french army are setting in your neck. Freakin Wehraboos, the Wehrmacht was successesful cause they fought like mad helldogs, (for expample officers like Major Bach i in the Deutsches Afrikakorps and used things like Panzerschokolode (amphetamin) to make those Blitzkrieg Pushes possible.

Nazigermany was good in dashing strikes, not ongoing tactial warfare (see Battle of Britain, Eastern Front, Africacampaign) 
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Offline DrunkenSpartan

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2018, 09:10:06 am »
and everyone else allows them to do so

Reasonably plausible. We can see from these excerpts that the United States had, even then, a deep distrust of the Soviet Union, and that as late as September 1938 Britain and France were willing to do almost anything to avoid military conflict with Germany.

"The Soviet occupation of eastern Poland in September and the “Winter War” against Finland in December led President Franklin Roosevelt to condemn the Soviet Union publicly as a “dictatorship as absolute as any other dictatorship in the world,” and to impose a “moral embargo” on the export of certain products to the Soviets." - U.S.-Soviet Alliance, 1941–1945. Office of the Historian, U.S. Department of State.

"As Hitler continued to make inflammatory speeches demanding that Germans in Czechoslovakia be reunited with their homeland, war seemed imminent. Neither France nor Britain felt prepared to defend Czechoslovakia, however, and both were anxious to avoid a military confrontation with Germany at almost any cost. " -Munich Agreement, Encyclopaedia Britannica



von Manstein, Guderian, and Rommel are drinking celebratory vodka shots in Moscow's Kremlin within half a year.

Unlikely. German intelligence heavily underestimated the reserves available to the Soviet Union. Barbarossa was based around an assumption that in addition to the roughly 150 divisions available to the Soviets, only 50 divisions of reserves could be mobilized. In reality several hundred divisions worth of reserves were available to the Soviets.


"German intelligence failures played a large part [in the failure of Operation Barbarossa] on several levels. The Red Army had been viewed with distain, especially because Stalin’s purges of the late 1930s had removed thousands of its officers - albeit temporarily in most cases. Its poor performance against the Finns in the winter of 1939-1940 also encouraged the Germans. Soviet industry was deemed incapable of producing modern weapons. Most importantly, Russian troop numbers and fighting strength were continually underestimated, so that despite the losses inflicted in early encirclement battles, the Germans always faced yet more reinforcements. The High Command had only considered the Soviet western army groups in their planning, and the presence of reserve forces and uncommitted formations in the Russian interior or on the eastern borders were disregarded. Even after Operation 'Typhoon' ground to a halt in early December, the Germans still chose to believe that the Soviets had nothing left to stage a counterattack." -Senior Curator Ian Carter, "Operation 'Barbarossa' And Germany's Failure In The Soviet Union", writing for the Imperial War Museum

This erroneous assumption of a weaker Soviet Union was a major variable in the equation of Barbarossa. The goal of establishing the A-A Line and the dilution of German strength on the Eastern front can in some part be attributed to this faulty intelligence. The German High Command planned Barbarossa as a short-term campaign and assumed Soviet resistance would always be below par. This assumption allowed for generous distribution of troops along the Eastern front. Without significant troop concentration and facing the prospect of an 1800 mile front, the Wehrmacht was fighting an uphill battle from day one.


The German leadership continued to underestimate their foe in the East and place far too much confidence in their own capabilities well into 1942.

"There were daily quarrels all summer. The point upon which we had our final disagreement was the decision of an offensive on the Caucasus and Stalingrad - a mistake, and Hitler didn't want to see it. I told him the Russians would put in another million men in 1942 and get another million in 1943. Hitler told me that I was an idiot - that the Russians were practically dead already. When I told Hitler about Russian armament potentials, especially for tank materials, Hitler flew into a rage of fury and threatened me with his fists. " - Franz Halder, "The Nuremberg Interviews"


Of course other variables such as the weather, logistics, oil production, morale, and treatment of the local population by the occupant Wehrmacht should all be taken into account when forming an opinion on whether or not the German armed forces could have won in the East. In my opinion however, any tactical advantages gained by favorable adjustment of those additional variables is dashed by the simplest of mistakes; the Germans, like much of the rest of the world during that time, underestimated their opponent.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 09:12:07 am by DrunkenSpartan »
It's the same old thing since 1916
In your head, in your head they're still fighting
With their tanks and their bombs
And air bombs and their guns
In your head, in your head they are dying...

Online Nero_

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2018, 01:53:43 pm »
k

AeroNinja

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2018, 09:50:41 pm »
Spoiler
and everyone else allows them to do so

Reasonably plausible. We can see from these excerpts that the United States had, even then, a deep distrust of the Soviet Union, and that as late as September 1938 Britain and France were willing to do almost anything to avoid military conflict with Germany.

"The Soviet occupation of eastern Poland in September and the “Winter War” against Finland in December led President Franklin Roosevelt to condemn the Soviet Union publicly as a “dictatorship as absolute as any other dictatorship in the world,” and to impose a “moral embargo” on the export of certain products to the Soviets." - U.S.-Soviet Alliance, 1941–1945. Office of the Historian, U.S. Department of State.

"As Hitler continued to make inflammatory speeches demanding that Germans in Czechoslovakia be reunited with their homeland, war seemed imminent. Neither France nor Britain felt prepared to defend Czechoslovakia, however, and both were anxious to avoid a military confrontation with Germany at almost any cost. " -Munich Agreement, Encyclopaedia Britannica



von Manstein, Guderian, and Rommel are drinking celebratory vodka shots in Moscow's Kremlin within half a year.

Unlikely. German intelligence heavily underestimated the reserves available to the Soviet Union. Barbarossa was based around an assumption that in addition to the roughly 150 divisions available to the Soviets, only 50 divisions of reserves could be mobilized. In reality several hundred divisions worth of reserves were available to the Soviets.


"German intelligence failures played a large part [in the failure of Operation Barbarossa] on several levels. The Red Army had been viewed with distain, especially because Stalin’s purges of the late 1930s had removed thousands of its officers - albeit temporarily in most cases. Its poor performance against the Finns in the winter of 1939-1940 also encouraged the Germans. Soviet industry was deemed incapable of producing modern weapons. Most importantly, Russian troop numbers and fighting strength were continually underestimated, so that despite the losses inflicted in early encirclement battles, the Germans always faced yet more reinforcements. The High Command had only considered the Soviet western army groups in their planning, and the presence of reserve forces and uncommitted formations in the Russian interior or on the eastern borders were disregarded. Even after Operation 'Typhoon' ground to a halt in early December, the Germans still chose to believe that the Soviets had nothing left to stage a counterattack." -Senior Curator Ian Carter, "Operation 'Barbarossa' And Germany's Failure In The Soviet Union", writing for the Imperial War Museum

This erroneous assumption of a weaker Soviet Union was a major variable in the equation of Barbarossa. The goal of establishing the A-A Line and the dilution of German strength on the Eastern front can in some part be attributed to this faulty intelligence. The German High Command planned Barbarossa as a short-term campaign and assumed Soviet resistance would always be below par. This assumption allowed for generous distribution of troops along the Eastern front. Without significant troop concentration and facing the prospect of an 1800 mile front, the Wehrmacht was fighting an uphill battle from day one.


The German leadership continued to underestimate their foe in the East and place far too much confidence in their own capabilities well into 1942.

"There were daily quarrels all summer. The point upon which we had our final disagreement was the decision of an offensive on the Caucasus and Stalingrad - a mistake, and Hitler didn't want to see it. I told him the Russians would put in another million men in 1942 and get another million in 1943. Hitler told me that I was an idiot - that the Russians were practically dead already. When I told Hitler about Russian armament potentials, especially for tank materials, Hitler flew into a rage of fury and threatened me with his fists. " - Franz Halder, "The Nuremberg Interviews"


Of course other variables such as the weather, logistics, oil production, morale, and treatment of the local population by the occupant Wehrmacht should all be taken into account when forming an opinion on whether or not the German armed forces could have won in the East. In my opinion however, any tactical advantages gained by favorable adjustment of those additional variables is dashed by the simplest of mistakes; the Germans, like much of the rest of the world during that time, underestimated their opponent.
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Offline vanKliff

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2018, 11:15:51 pm »
Can we agree that Spartan killed this thread?
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Offline Big Pete

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2019, 07:40:55 am »
Germany could win WWII. Just don't declare on Russia and focus on Africa get to Syria and Kuwait and you got oils for days buddy.

Offline sirkaide

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2019, 10:19:13 am »
Could Germany have won WWII?

Yes, very easily. If they'd not allowed the British to escape at Dunkirk then Churchill would have sued for peace in 1940. The Eastern campaign would have been a walk in the park as a result.

Germany came very close to beating the Soviets in the East too. Hitler knew he needed a quick, psychological victory and he almost got one-had Moscow or perhaps only Stalingrad fallen then the Soviet state would have collapsed.

Churchill and the British government never would of agreed to peace like Vichy France. France lost the political will. There goverment lost unity and whether to accept a peace or fight on. This wasn’t the case with the British who have a Royal Family. The King and only the King can command the Armies and goverments of the Empire. The Dutch continued the fight in the name of their monarch too.Dunkirk only occurred because the French goverment mass-resigned. Otherwise two million Frenchmen were ready to continue the fight.

The betrayal of the Vichy French cannot be glossed over. After WW2  many Vichy French goverment officials were executed on treason charges by the Free French.

At Dunkirk many thousands of French soldiers escaped with British forces, only to be repatirated days later because France signed a peace deal with Germany. The British left thousands of their soldiers behind to save French soldiers on to the ships, for them to surrender days later.

If the French has fought on or given their ships to the British, then there wouldn’t of been a war with Japan as they couldn’t of risked a war against two of the greatest navies. The Italians would of been nonced out of the Med too. Shame the French surrendered.

The Germans practically had no navy, and the Brits still had over a million men under arms across the Empire. The Brits always knew the Americans would come eventually. The Germans had too few landing craft and the airforce was unable to win the Battle of Britain. Thus, land armies meant little in the air.

Canada, Australia and the Royal Navy (largest in the world at the time) would not of sat back and allowed Britain to become a vassal state of the Riech.

Nazi Germany only option was to bomb Britain and force them into a peace. This failed. Operation Sea Lion was a waste of time with no hope of success. The Canadians divisions could of been called upon to defend the Island in the event of a quick attack by German forces - the BEF needed re-mobileisation. The African Campaign shown the Brits to be the tough cookies. As they destroyed the Italian Armies and beat the Germans back into Tunsia. The North African campaign was all but over by the times the Americans arrived.

Many British people at the time seen WW2 to being similar to the Napoleonic Wars, whereby the whole of Europe fought against the Brits. Staying in the fight and holding your nerve is key to the British Empire history. Our Island is our fortresses.


People underestimate Dunkirk, not because of the men that could of been lost or were lost. Rather the amount of resources left behind. Ridiculous amount of ammo, fuel, heavy artillery, food etc. The British left like 22,000 vehicles. All of Britain’s rifles and machine guns were left too. This resulted in the British making the Famous Steg Gun. Which was the AK47 of the 40s and 50s. Very easy to make and cheap. This was mass-produced to give the Brits a sub-machine fun. A very poor weapon when compared to the famous Thomas Sub Machine gun.

The British were the only full motorised Army in 1939. The Germans still had cav that rode horses into battle and were heavily dependent on horses for transport. The Germany Army nearly killed the entire population of Europe’s horses, and stolen all the cars in the occupied countries. Germany never had a fully mechanised army.  What they did do was combine fast light/med tanks with close air support and mobile infantry. However Blitzkrieg ended in 1940. The Germans were unable to replace their loses. Most of the equipment left by the British at Dunkirk was re used by the Germans in Russia.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 11:53:36 am by sirkaide »