Author Topic: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞ [ESP 1st ; GER 2nd, POL 3rd]  (Read 157952 times)

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Offline BrokenCrayon

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #435 on: November 10, 2017, 09:03:42 pm »
Like I have said previously, Hussars have more agility and speed compared to both heavies and Lancers, Heavies have more health and a bigger sword at the cost of a slower horse and less agility, Lancers have the lance and the couch ability, at the cost of both less agility and less speed compared to a hussar, and a primary weapon which cannot block an oncoming attack. The notion that the classes in this game are "unbalanced" is complete and utter nonsense. Look folks, I won’t lie, I am seriously enraged by this vote and I am extremely disappointed. However I acknowledge the need for democracy and I don’t question the votes validity at all. I am disappointed by the fact that despite the progressive moves to allow lancers into this highly revered competition, we still have to neuter its ability to play competitively and to be able to stand a chance in this competition, as by removing one factor from a class automatically unbalances the class against their favour. I understand everyone’s concerns about lancers and I can somewhat understand their fears about facing lancers, However that is neither the class’ nor the players who choose to play that class’ fault, but rather it is the fault of the people who originally decided in ignorance that lancers are over-powered and should not be allowed into the competitive scene of Napoleonic Wars. Like my fellow lancer supporters who have stated over and over again, Lancers are very easily killed providing you understand their skill set, just as is every other class in this game. Now what Clausewitz is suggesting that some of the arguments used to defend lancers is somewhat subjective, and he brings into question the skill of active lancer players, however as we are the main active lancer players in the entire Napoleonic Wars community, we are the ones who truly understand how lancers can play and how they can be defeated, and if our arguments that we can be beaten are satisfactory enough then who’s argument is; Clausewitz? A hussar’s? A heavy’s? Or perhaps it is the lancer indeed? I implore the captains of each nation to reach out to me and engage in a civilised discussion on the issue over teamspeak.
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Offline 4eClausewitz

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #436 on: November 10, 2017, 09:07:19 pm »
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firstly, lack of blocking

The lancer has the saber to do the blocking for him, use it more effectively and this wouldn't be a problem. This is a skill-problem, not an inherent disadvantage of the class.

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secondly, you underestimate the disadvantage that the medium horse brings when taken in conjunction with the lack of blocking

This ties in with what I said before: lancers do not lack the ability to block. This is again not an actual disadvantage of the class but rather the misuse of the class. A skilled lancer would not have this problem to the extent that it could be classed as a disadvantage.

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furthermore, a soft hit with a lance is much worse than a soft hit with a sword, given the animation time of a lance being heavily weighted towards the beginning, so you have over a second in which you can't do anything once your lance soft hit

This could be a minor downside to the lancer class, but it's relatively insignificant on the larger scale of things when compared to other classes (who also have the same problem with soft hits).

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furthermore, lances are more difficult to aim than a sword, making things like jump kills something that are much less reliable

Lances require just as much timing and aiming as any of the other classes, which can all be practiced and again amounts to a lack of skill on your part rather than it being a disadvantage of the lancer class as a whole.

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Furthermore, you are much less likely to kill a horse in one hit with one hit with a lance, and the areas which do more damage like the head and belly are even more difficult to hit than with a sword when you consider the difficulty of the lance to aim.

This seems debatable, with enough speed a lancer is easily able to kill a horse with one hit. To add to that, they have the couch lancing ability which kills in one hit. A sword does not kill in one hit in all instances either and require the horseman to get very close to the opponent, whereas the lancer does not have to do this and can just keep jabbing away at a distance.

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Furthermore, the lancer being extremely manouverable is a misconception brought about by the fact that the lancer can turn very far with the swing on the left side, which can be avoided by going on the right, and is not effective against multiple opponents since to get that manouverability you have to go quite slowly, and there for the falsely coined "manouverable" style of lancer play is incompatible with a team battle format.

I never claimed that lancers were 'extremely maneuverable', they have decent maneuverability at best. This is actually like you say, one of their downsides.

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In addition, the couch is easier to fight than you think, since couching against a mounted requires sufficient predictive skills that not everyone has, and can also be out-ranged with a well timed swing. If you complain about being couched in the back, consider that you could be killed by a sword swing to the back also. Furthermore, there are effective techniques to deal with a slow couch if you are dismounted, which don't work 100% of the time, but neither does else

Couch lancing alone is not the problem, it is the multitude of options the lancer has to his disposal which makes the class unbalanced. If the lancer did not have the sword, for instance, the couch lancing ability would not be a problem because there would be no way for them to block. Is it relatively easy to fight once you get the hang of it? - Sure, but that does not make it any less unbalanced.

So what this entire essay of yours actually amounts to is misconstruing that which I had already pointed out in a previous post, and also pointing out that lancers require skill to use (just like any other class). Furthermore, that's all I have to say about it. Lots of luck to the lancers this year  :-*.

Offline tomascadarn

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #437 on: November 10, 2017, 09:18:14 pm »
Man its a good job they added duel weilding to the latest update so we can block with the saber while we have our lances out, just because you assert what you say as truth doesn't mean that it is so, and your answer has, predictably, about as much accurracy regarding the merits and disadvantages of playing lancer as you do real experience with the class. FURTHERMORE, thanks for the trite comments about my skill with words, it brought a great deal to yor argument and really made you look like a mature person that could be counted on to bring a pertinent opinion to the discussion. X
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Offline tomascadarn

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #438 on: November 10, 2017, 09:19:55 pm »
Oh also, "couched lancing alone is not a problem". Well since lancers have been democractically voted to be allowed and what the current discussion regards is the couch, you'll obviously be in favour of allowing couching then?
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Offline BrokenCrayon

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #439 on: November 10, 2017, 09:26:48 pm »
Quote
firstly, lack of blocking

The lancer has the saber to do the blocking for him, use it more effectively and this wouldn't be a problem. This is a skill-problem, not an inherent disadvantage of the class.

Quote
secondly, you underestimate the disadvantage that the medium horse brings when taken in conjunction with the lack of blocking

This ties in with what I said before: lancers do not lack the ability to block. This is again not an actual disadvantage of the class but rather the misuse of the class. A skilled lancer would not have this problem to the extent that it could be classed as a disadvantage.

Quote
furthermore, a soft hit with a lance is much worse than a soft hit with a sword, given the animation time of a lance being heavily weighted towards the beginning, so you have over a second in which you can't do anything once your lance soft hit

This could be a minor downside to the lancer class, but it's relatively insignificant on the larger scale of things when compared to other classes (who also have the same problem with soft hits).

Quote
furthermore, lances are more difficult to aim than a sword, making things like jump kills something that are much less reliable

Lances require just as much timing and aiming as any of the other classes, which can all be practiced and again amounts to a lack of skill on your part rather than it being a disadvantage of the lancer class as a whole.

Quote
Furthermore, you are much less likely to kill a horse in one hit with one hit with a lance, and the areas which do more damage like the head and belly are even more difficult to hit than with a sword when you consider the difficulty of the lance to aim.

This seems debatable, with enough speed a lancer is easily able to kill a horse with one hit. To add to that, they have the couch lancing ability which kills in one hit. A sword does not kill in one hit in all instances either and require the horseman to get very close to the opponent, whereas the lancer does not have to do this and can just keep jabbing away at a distance.

Quote
Furthermore, the lancer being extremely manouverable is a misconception brought about by the fact that the lancer can turn very far with the swing on the left side, which can be avoided by going on the right, and is not effective against multiple opponents since to get that manouverability you have to go quite slowly, and there for the falsely coined "manouverable" style of lancer play is incompatible with a team battle format.

I never claimed that lancers were 'extremely maneuverable', they have decent maneuverability at best. This is actually like you say, one of their downsides.

Quote
In addition, the couch is easier to fight than you think, since couching against a mounted requires sufficient predictive skills that not everyone has, and can also be out-ranged with a well timed swing. If you complain about being couched in the back, consider that you could be killed by a sword swing to the back also. Furthermore, there are effective techniques to deal with a slow couch if you are dismounted, which don't work 100% of the time, but neither does else

Couch lancing alone is not the problem, it is the multitude of options the lancer has to his disposal which makes the class unbalanced. If the lancer did not have the sword, for instance, the couch lancing ability would not be a problem because there would be no way for them to block. Is it relatively easy to fight once you get the hang of it? - Sure, but that does not make it any less unbalanced.

So what this entire essay of yours actually amounts to is misconstruing that which I had already pointed out in a previous post, and also pointing out that lancers require skill to use (just like any other class). Furthermore, that's all I have to say about it. Lots of luck to the lancers this year  :-*.

I think you fail to realise the fact that if a lancer is put into a situation where he must draw his sword, then the lancer is as good as dead Clausewitz, for example, If I am rooted, in a group fight and I attempt to draw my sabre, I am more likely to die in the middle of switching from lance to sabre therefore making it extremely easy for the enemy to kill rather than dismount, now any lancer that would engage an enemy with a sabre is idiotic as they have a severe speed and agility disadvantage to the them and as such the lancer will always use the lance and therefore nullifying any advantage to using the sabre.
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Offline pearse

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #440 on: November 10, 2017, 09:32:02 pm »
tbf Killing lancers is easy even if they are couching, it would be like not allowing hussars to do a left swing it's making it 10x harder for them to actually play as there chosen class.

Offline 4eClausewitz

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #441 on: November 10, 2017, 09:34:51 pm »
Oh also, "couched lancing alone is not a problem". Well since lancers have been democractically voted to be allowed and what the current discussion regards is the couch, you'll obviously be in favour of allowing couching then?

The fact that you take my comments so personally really speaks volumes about you. I never stated you were/weren't skilled at all, I merely said that the things you pointed out are more likely to be the result of poor judgement and lack of skill in a particular situation, rather than it being a problem of the class as a whole. Unless you want to claim that you are in fact a faultless lancer, I don't see how you could possibly think that was meant as criticism of your particular skill. I don't even know who you are, let alone how good you are.

I'm not in charge of the vote to allow/disallow couch lancing, it's an option that was chosen by the organizer after being pressured to do something about the current situation. I don't think the class as a whole (as it currently stands) should be allowed because of reasons I stated before. It's not the optimal solution at all, but it's better than the class staying and being even more unbalanced. You very poorly keep attempting to put words in my mouth, but have continued to fail to do so.

Offline tomascadarn

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #442 on: November 10, 2017, 09:40:38 pm »
Clausewitz, you very obviously don't know who I am, since these observations are made mainly from the perspective of a hussar (my main class), you don't know how good I am either, although I welcome you to find out if you feel the compulsion. FURTHERMORE, I have at no point attempted to put words in your mouth, I've only been pointing out that said words are based on limited experience, and in my opinion, and in Diarmuid's for that matter, contain more falsity than fact.
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Offline tomascadarn

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #443 on: November 10, 2017, 09:43:10 pm »

Quote
furthermore, lances are more difficult to aim than a sword, making things like jump kills something that are much less reliable

Lances require just as much timing and aiming as any of the other classes, which can all be practiced and again amounts to a lack of skill on your part rather than it being a disadvantage of the lancer class as a whole.


"i never said you were not skilled" clausewitz 2k17 bruh
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Offline Erik le Rouge

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #444 on: November 10, 2017, 09:46:21 pm »
Let it not turn into a personal argument.

Bring new arguments about the couched lance debate if you have some (really no need to repeat what you said in a post you've already made), but if you do not just let it end. You guys don't even know each other.
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Offline StephanGH

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #445 on: November 10, 2017, 09:51:18 pm »
I'd like to point out that I was the one in the BNL that chose to vote YES on this vote, not Clause :D

Offline MrNarsus

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #446 on: November 10, 2017, 11:26:22 pm »
So much petty arguing.

Why can't the Irish team just be happy they got their lancers? Lancers have been banned for the last 3 years of this tournament, now we give them a sweetie and they want the whole bag instead.

You've got your long pointy sticks, you could've said thank you to all the voting captains, but instead you choose to argue about it because you haven't got EXACTLY what you want.

P.S: Lancers are overpowered in NW (and any module for that matter), and yes I am experienced as a lancer so you can't play the "YOU DONT KNOW WHAT UR ON ABOUT" card, so just get on with what you've been given like good little boys and girls and stop crying about everything xoxo

Offline Nr12.Johann

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #447 on: November 10, 2017, 11:44:36 pm »
So much petty arguing.

Why can't the Irish team just be happy they got their lancers? Lancers have been banned for the last 3 years of this tournament, now we give them a sweetie and they want the whole bag instead.

You've got your long pointy sticks, you could've said thank you to all the voting captains, but instead you choose to argue about it because you haven't got EXACTLY what you want.

P.S: Lancers are overpowered in NW (and any module for that matter), and yes I am experienced as a lancer so you can't play the "YOU DONT KNOW WHAT UR ON ABOUT" card, so just get on with what you've been given like good little boys and girls and stop crying about everything xoxo

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Offline Knightmare

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #448 on: November 10, 2017, 11:53:14 pm »
So much petty arguing.

Why can't the Irish team just be happy they got their lancers? Lancers have been banned for the last 3 years of this tournament, now we give them a sweetie and they want the whole bag instead.

You've got your long pointy sticks, you could've said thank you to all the voting captains, but instead you choose to argue about it because you haven't got EXACTLY what you want.

P.S: Lancers are overpowered in NW (and any module for that matter), and yes I am experienced as a lancer so you can't play the "YOU DONT KNOW WHAT UR ON ABOUT" card, so just get on with what you've been given like good little boys and girls and stop crying about everything xoxo
when ur name is narsus but pic is kaneki, no arslan love ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Offline StephanGH

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Re: ♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞
« Reply #449 on: November 10, 2017, 11:56:27 pm »
I... Love this discussion