♞ Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Nations Cup 2017 ♞ [ESP 1st ; GER 2nd, POL 3rd]

[tomascadarn]

After receiving lots of complaining regarding the fact that lancers were allowed into the tournament, I have been looking for a solution to try and make as many people happy as possible.
There was obviously no way I would ever come back on that decision, due to my personal beliefs that it should be allowed, and the fact that it was decided by a Captains vote.

However yesterday I did host another Captains vote, to decide wether lancers should be allowed to use the couched lance ability or not.
Now that all Captains have voted : the result is as follows:

YES, I think we should forbid the couched lance ability = 8 votes / 12
NO, I do not think we should change anything = 4 votes / 12

Therefore, new rule:

17. Teams playing are lancers are not allowed to use the couched lance ability of the unit. If a player does it, he will be slain. If it continues, points might be taken off the guilty team.

Thank you for taking good notes of it.
Also, this was decided by a vote between all of the 12 captains. I will remind you that the lancer class was allowed into the tournament by the exact same way, therefore I will apply the same "rules" to what's gonna follow on FSE. You may debate it, but any flaming or drama-filled post will be removed instantly. Keep all discussions polite or refrain from posting.

Hopefully this makes for a more fun and balanced tournament.

So in response to accusations that people don't know how to play against lancer, after lancer having been allowed, the mechanic which people don't know how to counter correctly has now been banned, really makes you think. Just because we've lost a lot of experienced players for this years tournament doesn't mean we can let the entire thing descend into degeneracy. I personally don't see why you even went through the motions of allowing a vote about lancers if you were planning to pull out this vote immediately after. Now i'm not saying that you're going back on your word, but i don't think that it'd be a stretch to say that the new decision is a little in bad faith.

[Azhrei]

The reason people didn't want lancers is because they were worried. Many people don't know how to counter them properly. The reason this vote won is the same reason - worried about lancers and don't know how to counter. So, it's shit, since no other melee class is being neutered in any way, and the very idea would never enter into people's minds as it does for lancers.

It's not enough that we get insulted on a daily basis, we have to be limited as much as possible because we're a genuine threat. Not surprised in the least. Surprised people voted for lancers, yes. Not that they voted to neuter them.

[4eClausewitz]

So in response to accusations that people don't know how to play against lancer, after lancer having been allowed, the mechanic which people don't know how to counter correctly has now been banned, really makes you think. Just because we've lost a lot of experienced players for this years tournament doesn't mean we can let the entire thing descend into degeneracy.

It's not a matter of not being able to play against lancers: it's an issue of an already unbalanced class gaining an unfair advantage over the other classes , which do not have these advantages. This way, at the very least, the classes will be somewhat balanced. You can't speak of a fair competition if the odds are tipped in one class' favor from the start. The only argument I've seen raised by lancers thus far is that they haven't encountered hussars who are better them and that therefore the class is not unbalanced, which could easily be the result of a lack of skill on the lancer's part rather than the supposed balance of all the classes. There's too many advantages to playing a lancer in comparison to the other classes, and taking away one of those advantages brings back some much needed balance. Lancers will still be able to use their range and their saber(!), which should be more than enough.

[tomascadarn]

I mean you say that its not that people don't know how to play against it, but if you ask someone like diarmuid about the difference in difficulty facing you for example, and facing someone intimately familiar with the class like myself, he'll tell you that they're very different, if you can 1v1 diar and beat him with a similar scoreline to mine against him then maybe i'll accept the premise that people actually do know how to play vs lancers

[Azhrei]

So in response to accusations that people don't know how to play against lancer, after lancer having been allowed, the mechanic which people don't know how to counter correctly has now been banned, really makes you think. Just because we've lost a lot of experienced players for this years tournament doesn't mean we can let the entire thing descend into degeneracy.

It's not a matter of not being able to play against lancers: it's an issue of an already unbalanced class gaining an unfair advantage over the other classes , which do not have these advantages. This way, at the very least, the classes will be somewhat balanced. You can't speak of a fair competition if the odds are tipped in one class' favor from the start. The only argument I've seen raised by lancers thus far is that they haven't encountered hussars who are better them and that therefore the class is not unbalanced, which could easily be the result of a lack of skill on the lancer's part rather than the supposed balance of all the classes. There's too many advantages to playing a lancer in comparison to the other classes, and taking away one of those advantages brings back some much needed balance. Lancers will still be able to use their range and their saber(!), which should be more than enough.

I can see it now, without the couch and we're facing multiple grounded opponents, the entire thing comes to a halt as we strike and they block, over and over, and we are forced to resort to bumping into them to kill them, which takes time. That's going to be fun for all involved, from the players to the spectators. I don't see people discussing how hussars are able to run away from everyone or how dragoon horses have too much health. For every advantage in every class, there is a disadvantage. I don't couch myself, and wouldn't in the tournament (except on grounded opponents when we're running out of time), so it doesn't affect me, but you are removing a key ability of a melee class which is just as silly an idea to us as removing a hussar's ability to block would be to you.

At this point, changing the class entirely, we may as well not play at all (which would simultaneously make a lot of people very happy as they wipe the sweat off their brows, I know).

[4eClausewitz]

I mean you say that its not that people don't know how to play against it, but if you ask someone like diarmuid about the difference in difficulty facing you for example, and facing someone intimately familiar with the class like myself, he'll tell you that they're very difference, if you can 1v1 diar and beat him with a similar scoreline to mine against him then maybe i'll accept the premise that people actually do know how to play vs lancers

You missed the point of my post entirely. Lancers keep pointing the finger to the opposition by saying they simply cannot play against them and that therefore the class should be allowed. Lancers have range, medium maneuverability and speed, the couch lancing ability and the ability to use a sword. Hussars have good maneuverability and speed, but have a very weak horse and very limited range. Heavies only have significant range and the ability to take more hits than other classes, with the major downside being their horse being incredibly slow. The pros and cons of the other classes are balanced, whereas with the lancer no such thing exists (because the positives outweigh the negatives whilst playing as a lancer). What one particular person experiences does not discredit that.

[tomascadarn]

I mean you say that its not that people don't know how to play against it, but if you ask someone like diarmuid about the difference in difficulty facing you for example, and facing someone intimately familiar with the class like myself, he'll tell you that they're very difference, if you can 1v1 diar and beat him with a similar scoreline to mine against him then maybe i'll accept the premise that people actually do know how to play vs lancers

You missed the point of my post entirely. Lancers keep pointing the finger to the opposition by saying they simply cannot play against them and that therefore the class should be allowed. Lancers have range, medium maneuverability and speed, the couch lancing ability and the ability to use a sword. Hussars have good maneuverability and speed, but have a very weak horse and very limited range. Heavies only have significant range and the ability to take more hits than other classes, with the major downside being their horse being incredibly slow. The pros and cons of the other classes are balanced, whereas with the lancer no such thing exists. What one particular person experiences does not discredit that.

I'd say rather that it was you rather that misunderstood me, in that, my point is that is there are disadvantages to the lancer class, which i take advantage of regularly, the reason we say you don't know how to play against l;ancers is that you don't take advantage of thos openings well enough, if you did, you wouldn't be calling lancers overpowered

[Erik le Rouge]

I can see it now, without the couch and we're facing multiple grounded opponents, the entire thing comes to a halt as we strike and they block, over and over, and we are forced to resort to bumping into them to kill them, which takes time.

You're forgetting that you've got the ability to switch to a saber there. If you find yourself in a situation where you have for instance 6 mounted men, facing 7 or 8 enemy dismounted. Then you can have 3 of your men fighting with their lanced, the other 3 using the saber. The combination of two weapons is and always has been extremely deadly on NW.

You guys must remember that this is the first time that the lancer class is allowed at a CNC. Obviously we can't expect things to be 100% perfect from day 1. We are still making changes to try and make things as balanced as possible. I honestly don't believe the lancer class is nerfed by that vote decision to a point of becoming unplayable. All the good lancers I saw on this game used the normal lance hits a lot more than the couched ability.

[4eClausewitz]

I mean you say that its not that people don't know how to play against it, but if you ask someone like diarmuid about the difference in difficulty facing you for example, and facing someone intimately familiar with the class like myself, he'll tell you that they're very difference, if you can 1v1 diar and beat him with a similar scoreline to mine against him then maybe i'll accept the premise that people actually do know how to play vs lancers

You missed the point of my post entirely. Lancers keep pointing the finger to the opposition by saying they simply cannot play against them and that therefore the class should be allowed. Lancers have range, medium maneuverability and speed, the couch lancing ability and the ability to use a sword. Hussars have good maneuverability and speed, but have a very weak horse and very limited range. Heavies only have significant range and the ability to take more hits than other classes, with the major downside being their horse being incredibly slow. The pros and cons of the other classes are balanced, whereas with the lancer no such thing exists. What one particular person experiences does not discredit that.

I'd say rather that it was you rather that misunderstood me, in that, my point is that is there are disadvantages to the lancer class, which i take advantage of regularly, the reason we say you don't know how to play against l;ancers is that you don't take advantage of thos openings well enough, if you did, you wouldn't be calling lancers overpowered

Again, the advantages of a lancer outweigh the disadvantages compared to the other classes. This continued argument of 'people can simply not play against us' has been worn out and holds very little value at this point. If you want to get the last word in be my guest, but at least try to discredit what I said rather than repeating the same point over and over.

[tomascadarn]

I can see it now, without the couch and we're facing multiple grounded opponents, the entire thing comes to a halt as we strike and they block, over and over, and we are forced to resort to bumping into them to kill them, which takes time.

You're forgetting that you've got the ability to switch to a saber there. If you find yourself in a situation where you have for instance 6 mounted men, facing 7 or 8 enemy dismounted. Then you can have 3 of your men fighting with their lanced, the other 3 using the saber. The combination of two weapons is and always has been extremely deadly on NW.

You guys must remember that this is the first time that the lancer class is allowed at a CNC. Obviously we can't expect things to be 100% perfect from day 1. We are still making changes to try and make things as balanced as possible. I honestly don't believe the lancer class is nerfed by that vote decision to a point of becoming unplayable. All the good lancers I saw on this game used the normal lance hits a lot more than the couched ability.

Its hard to make balance changes while not having any cnc match material to go off to see how balanced it is however

[StephanGH]

*grabs popcorn*

[tomascadarn]

I mean you say that its not that people don't know how to play against it, but if you ask someone like diarmuid about the difference in difficulty facing you for example, and facing someone intimately familiar with the class like myself, he'll tell you that they're very difference, if you can 1v1 diar and beat him with a similar scoreline to mine against him then maybe i'll accept the premise that people actually do know how to play vs lancers

You missed the point of my post entirely. Lancers keep pointing the finger to the opposition by saying they simply cannot play against them and that therefore the class should be allowed. Lancers have range, medium maneuverability and speed, the couch lancing ability and the ability to use a sword. Hussars have good maneuverability and speed, but have a very weak horse and very limited range. Heavies only have significant range and the ability to take more hits than other classes, with the major downside being their horse being incredibly slow. The pros and cons of the other classes are balanced, whereas with the lancer no such thing exists. What one particular person experiences does not discredit that.

I'd say rather that it was you rather that misunderstood me, in that, my point is that is there are disadvantages to the lancer class, which i take advantage of regularly, the reason we say you don't know how to play against l;ancers is that you don't take advantage of thos openings well enough, if you did, you wouldn't be calling lancers overpowered

Again, the advantages of a lancer outweigh the disadvantages compared to the other classes. This continued argument of 'people can simply not play against us' has been worn out and holds very little value at this point. If you want to get the last word in be my guest, but at least try to discredit what I said rather than repeating the same point over and over.

I understand what you're trying to say,  but that relies on the premise that what you are saying is correct, which it isn't... This continued argument of 'the advantages of a lancer outweigh the disadvantages compared to the other classes' has been worn out and holds very little value at this point.

[4eClausewitz]

I understand what you're trying to say,  but that relies on the premise that what you are saying is correct, which it isn't...

Why is my premise not correct? Are there disadvantages other than the medium horse that apply only to lancers, and if so what are they?

[Azhrei]

You're forgetting that you've got the ability to switch to a saber there. If you find yourself in a situation where you have for instance 6 mounted men, facing 7 or 8 enemy dismounted. Then you can have 3 of your men fighting with their lanced, the other 3 using the saber. The combination of two weapons is and always has been extremely deadly on NW.

More like everyone else can, I try not to use the saber if I can get away with it But, good point.

You guys must remember that this is the first time that the lancer class is allowed at a CNC. Obviously we can't expect things to be 100% perfect from day 1. We are still making changes to try and make things as balanced as possible. I honestly don't believe the lancer class is nerfed by that vote decision to a point of becoming unplayable. All the good lancers I saw on this game used the normal lance hits a lot more than the couched ability.

I appreciate that this is the first time, and that you're trying to be as fair and balanced as possible. I won't miss the couch at all, I only would use it because Diarmuid would kill me if I didn't (and I would only use it on grounded opponents!). That's an interesting point about lancers using the couch sparingly, at least next to their main thrusting attacks, I don't know about that as I see some couching quite a bit, but fair enough.

[tomascadarn]

I understand what you're trying to say,  but that relies on the premise that what you are saying is correct, which it isn't...

Why is my premise not correct? Are there disadvantages other than the medium horse that apply only to lancers, and if so what are they?

firstly, lack of blocking, secondly, you underestimate the disadvantage that the medium horse brings when taken in conjunction with the lack of blocking, furthermore, lances are more difficult to aim than a sword, making things like jump kills something that are much less reliable, furthermore, a soft hit with a lance is much worse than a soft hit with a sword, given the animation time of a lance being heavily weighted towards the beginning, so you have over a second in which you can't do anything once your lance soft hits. Furthermore, you are much less likely to kill a horse in one hit with one hit with a lance, and the areas which do more damage like the head and belly are even more difficult to hit than with a sword when you consider the difficulty of the lance to aim. Furthermore, the lancer being extremely manouverable is a misconception brought about by the fact that the lancer can turn very far with the swing on the left side, which can be avoided by going on the right, and is not effective against multiple opponents since to get that manouverability you have to go quite slowly, and there for the falsely coined "manouverable" style of lancer play is incompatible with a team battle format. In addition, the couch is easier to fight than you think, since couching against a mounted requires sufficient predictive skills that not everyone has, and can also be out-ranged with a well timed swing. If you complain about being couched in the back, consider that you could be killed by a sword swing to the back also. Furthermore, there are effective techniques to deal with a slow couch if you are dismounted, which don't work 100% of the time, but neither does else, I'd even teach it to you to prove it, but that's something that i'm not willing to do prior to cnc since it wouldn't be fair for me to teach people ways to counter the irish team. Is that enough disadvantages for you? Since i seem to be able to get by by exploiting them.