Author Topic: The Dutch at Waterloo  (Read 46885 times)

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Offline MaHuD

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2012, 08:45:51 pm »
It's because we have always been multi-cultural, so we are not specificaly focussing on us but rather on interesting events in the Europe, USA and of course imperialism where we mostly get taught how bad our "heroes" of antiquity really are.
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Offline zac

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2012, 09:20:08 pm »
all i can say is that over here in Australia where taught how evil Europeans are and how the brought so many bad things to the world,,believe me most of my history class argues for hours but the teachers wont listen, our government tries to demonize the British etc and our history is so politically correct,many Australians don't even know when our country was founded ,,most of the people my age believe that gallipoli and the Somme were in ww2 etc

Offline Duuring

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2012, 10:29:45 pm »
How does the Somme and Gallipoli have anything to do with political correctness?

Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic.

Edit: found something interesting on the Bylandt Brigade:

In the next hours the brigade stood and fought between their British comrades of the Pack and Kempt brigades (according to all eye-witness reports!). And although the heaviest cavalry attacks of the French were in the centre of the battlefield, the brigade had to form squares several times when the enemy cavalry came too close. It happened also several times that the flank companies of the battalions were sent down the forward slope to protect them from enemy-skirmisher fire. Captain Bronkhorst says that they were sent out three times. Grunebosch says that this skirmish line was there until the evening under the command of the wounded Singendonck. During these skirmisher fights there was probably no immediate danger from cavalry. Captain Bronkhorst (7th Militia), in his skirmish line down the forward slope, did see the Prussians attack at 19.00 hours (78). Most sources declare these skirmisher fights (and the cavalry attacks in the Allied centre) as the 'second attack".

Between 19.00-19.30 hours the French guard attacks. And although this is a different story (as it is happening in the centre of the Allied line) it had some consequences for the Van Bijlandt brigade.

When the Guard advances the Brigade of Kempt and Van Bijlandt were ordered forward as well. Kempt was ordered to advance to the right flank of the advancing guard column (see map). Van Bijlandt was ordered forward to protect Kempts' left flank. And thus once again the brigade came forward, skirmishers out. They went all the way down into the valley. There was little resistance at first. But it seems that this changed soon afterwards. French voltigeurs started to exchange fire. Soon afterwards the brigade ran out of ammunition and was ordered to retreat behind the lines (17).

Holding their position until they ran out of ammo. I believe that can be considered a bit 'heroically'?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 11:04:59 pm by Duuring »

Offline Kator Viridian

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2012, 11:58:21 pm »
How does the Somme and Gallipoli have anything to do with political correctness?

Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic.

Edit: found something interesting on the Bylandt Brigade:

In the next hours the brigade stood and fought between their British comrades of the Pack and Kempt brigades (according to all eye-witness reports!). And although the heaviest cavalry attacks of the French were in the centre of the battlefield, the brigade had to form squares several times when the enemy cavalry came too close. It happened also several times that the flank companies of the battalions were sent down the forward slope to protect them from enemy-skirmisher fire. Captain Bronkhorst says that they were sent out three times. Grunebosch says that this skirmish line was there until the evening under the command of the wounded Singendonck. During these skirmisher fights there was probably no immediate danger from cavalry. Captain Bronkhorst (7th Militia), in his skirmish line down the forward slope, did see the Prussians attack at 19.00 hours (78). Most sources declare these skirmisher fights (and the cavalry attacks in the Allied centre) as the 'second attack".

Between 19.00-19.30 hours the French guard attacks. And although this is a different story (as it is happening in the centre of the Allied line) it had some consequences for the Van Bijlandt brigade.

When the Guard advances the Brigade of Kempt and Van Bijlandt were ordered forward as well. Kempt was ordered to advance to the right flank of the advancing guard column (see map). Van Bijlandt was ordered forward to protect Kempts' left flank. And thus once again the brigade came forward, skirmishers out. They went all the way down into the valley. There was little resistance at first. But it seems that this changed soon afterwards. French voltigeurs started to exchange fire. Soon afterwards the brigade ran out of ammunition and was ordered to retreat behind the lines (17).

Holding their position until they ran out of ammo. I believe that can be considered a bit 'heroically'?

About 50 minutes in:

The Blue coats, around 100-200 men strong fighting around 10,000 men, thats the Blue Coat regiment vs The Parlimentarian Army ... want to stand strong to that?

Or even a single man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Henry_Cain
Think you could stare down a STUG with a Piat gun that can't penetrate its armour whilst kneeling in the middle of a road? ... then get Sharpnelled and carry on the fight for a few more days before eventually running out of ammo for your Piat and instead using a 2" mortor instead?

or staying on the WWII note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill

Lieutenant Jack churchill ... spent most of the war armed with nothing but a Longbow and Broad Sword, that and a lot of time on motor cycles before quoting "People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them."

Or for the "With 30 years" margin of crap situations:

Just a few i'd worth noting out of the British History books, I can happily go through so many more people and regiments through just the Victoria cross list alone. Let alone just the hand picked stuff ... do you see why Britain sees countries that have lasted less than 100-200 years as minor?

TBH any of his statements are just to grab the sales in Britain, thats it, I mean do you think thousands and thousands of Belgians bought his books? if you did and you expected a history book, you should of stopped at "Sharpe".

Offline Duuring

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2012, 10:21:29 am »
Why exactly are you going this off-topic? xD

I'm not saying brits didn't do heroic stuff. But honour those who deserve being honoured!

Offline Kator Viridian

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2012, 03:10:34 pm »
Why exactly are you going this off-topic? xD

I'm not saying brits didn't do heroic stuff. But honour those who deserve being honoured!

Not going to change my opinion on retreating and routing ;)

People who stand their ground or push forward are Hero's even if they do get whiped out, its why that regiment is not considered as one of them for that particular manouver.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2012, 03:39:35 pm »
The Dutch brigade stood their ground until they ran out of ammo. They were already on far below half strength and didn't retreat until they received orders to do and their position was taken over by other units.
And you say they routed? What's tactical retreat in your eyes?

Kator, I'm sorry, but that's just stupid.

Edit: Wait a sec, Cain received a medal in a battle that the allied lost and retreated under the cover of darkeness. How can he do something heroically, as it seems he didn't achieve victory and routed?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 03:44:35 pm by Duuring »

Offline MaHuD

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2012, 05:03:35 pm »
I would say that getting new ammo sounds a lot better than just standing there till the ammo comes to you!
[18:51] <Evanovic> Mahud can I nominate you for best villian 2013?

Offline KillerMongoose

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2012, 05:14:41 pm »
The actions of Bijlandt's Brigade are some of several actions which ensured the Allied victory at Waterloo. The amount of fighting and dying they saw had to be horrendous, to stand your ground and fight through all of it makes you a hero in my opinion. We tend to have a grossly skewed view of what a hero is. Heroes do what they must for a cause, Bijlandt's Brigade fought through Quatre Bras - thus saving Wellington from an early defeat - they held out through Napoleon's artillery barrage, and they fought the French infantry attack fiercely until they had no more ammo. Now Kator, you're saying that to be a hero in your opinion, they would have had to charge with bayonets, likely getting themselves all killed for no reason. I don't think that's heroism, I think that's stupidity. They did more than their fair share of fighting and paid a heavy price for it, they deserve the title of "Heroes"

Offline Duuring

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #84 on: December 23, 2012, 05:42:35 pm »
I would say that getting new ammo sounds a lot better than just standing there till the ammo comes to you!

The Dutch army had a significant less amount of ammo per man then their British allies. I believe most militia units (being armed with the brown bess) had only about 10 shots each, or even less.

a good and accurate site is : http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/8/Docs.html
It's mostly about the 8th Militia, but also gives a good amount of info on the rest of the army (even about your beloved 7th, Mongoose).

Interesting is to read about the unofficial flags that some Dutch regiments carried.

Offline Kator Viridian

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2012, 07:43:50 pm »
Finding this funny where the only thing i've been doing is contradicting everything thats said, you know I know the difference between a tactical retreat and a rout i'm just watching all your reactions to the contradictory. You could say its a form of trolling but its more an assessment of your morals, for example if you look at the way Sharpe is written it is written in a context to boost the British Impericism .. making people beleive Britain were Heroes, exactly the way I have done just now ... only referencing those of British origin or British Nationality or British overseas provinces.

Now I would Duuring compare the morals and speech of Cornwell to yourself, you are extremely adamant to defend Belgium in every way and form where in Europe it was quite minor, much like Switzerland, Sardinia Piedmont, Modena, most of the States of the previous HRE.

The reasons why Cornwell tends not to assess these is because he views them as minor, so can happily pass them by with any comment he likes, for example British public vs Belgian public ... who do you think was the greater numbers? by using his writing to make the Beligians look bad he forced the British side up, this as I have said before is where the majority of his sales are. If he didn't do this then he may of lost sales to British and more the Belgian but considering the majority of his sales are towards British then that is where his vested interest is.

Onto Vested Interest, yours as a Belgian national is to defend it in anyway shape or form, which you do through your intense knowledge of the Belgians during the Napoleonic Era (Which I wouldn't dispute, except for this circumstance to help you assess yourself phsycologically and that of other people), but here you lack the passion to drive it forward, where Cornwell writes a book full of it you sit on the internet arguing with me.

On Money, Cornwell is clearly writing this book for profit, much like many writers of None historical books or "Based on true events" books, for example if you look into the Film industry you will no 100% historically accurate films, because they don't and will never do well. There will be a lot of elements made up to get the specific target audiances, as you can see in Cornwell his target Audiance is the British, your target Audiance is those with historical knowledge and opinions ... you can see where you are loosing out on money here.

Historical accuracy, Cornwell is obviously disputable, but is he really going for historical accuracy or just trying to snag another Audiance? Here you go for the Historical Accuracy vs British Nationalism argument, which is greater? through his works you can clearly see he going for Nationalism over Accuracy ... wether its right or wrong dosn't matter, it was clearly popular, and vastly more popular than Historically accurate books.

Here is a difference for you to think about, Heroes can run away from battles too, but what then makes him a coward? A Hero runs away at the right time, a Coward runs away at the wrong time. This right and wrong can be determined through multiple things, but running away dosn't make you a hero, your either that before or after it happens.

Its quite a puzzling thing this "Hero" business and not really something to delve into ... because well ... its an opinion and I don't want to get into the whole shinanigians of "Good and Bad" ... but the shortness of it is, Good and Bad are the opinons of a society already created, they are not fact ... One says "Good" the other says "Bad" who is the one to determine?

Offline Duuring

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2012, 07:51:56 pm »
*snip*

I'm not Belgian, Kator, I'm Dutch.

You have basically added nothing to this entire thread (Which is about the Netherlands army participation in the Waterloo-Campaign, and never about 'who's a hero?'), so please, next time you are going to post somewhere, please before doing so, think if you are adding something to the conversation.

Offline Kator Viridian

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2012, 10:11:50 pm »
*snip*

I'm not Belgian, Kator, I'm Dutch.

You have basically added nothing to this entire thread (Which is about the Netherlands army participation in the Waterloo-Campaign, and never about 'who's a hero?'), so please, next time you are going to post somewhere, please before doing so, think if you are adding something to the conversation.

But the thing is neither have you, your adds to the thread have been mainly based around your hatred for the "Sharpe series" as a Historical reference, when really no-one here has actually used it as one nor does it claim to be? I think tbh your holding a grudge against the Author than anything else.

Would it be wise to move from it and actually concentrate into what the Original topic should of been about "The Dutch at Waterloo".

So please if your going to tell someone to add something or stick on topic don't drag it into a "Sharpe is wrong" topic when everyone already knows.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2012, 10:18:04 pm »
Well you clearly missed out all the pieces of information and the sites I've given?

Offline KillerMongoose

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Re: The Dutch at Waterloo
« Reply #89 on: December 24, 2012, 05:15:09 am »
Only a fraction of this thread has been about Sharpe, my problem rests with the accounts of Siborne who claimed them to be facts and too many people regard them as facts. Sharpe was only mentioned briefly as more of an annoyance. We're not just talking about Sharpe as you seem to perceive, we're talking about the entirety of the Dutch-Belgian contributions at Waterloo as well as how they've been put down because of wildly inaccurate British bias.

And on the issue of heroes, you say a hero retreats at the right time. Wouldn't being totally out of ammunition and vastly underpowered after long hours of fighting and withstanding artillery barrages be the right time to retreat?