Author Topic: Let's discuss: Reenacting!  (Read 85246 times)

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Offline Duuring

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1950 on: September 02, 2017, 10:32:41 am »
Charges in Napoleonic Re-enactment are kinda retarded anyway.

Online Olafson

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1951 on: September 02, 2017, 12:53:49 pm »
Charges in Napoleonic Re-enactment are kinda retarded anyway.

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Offline Cara

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1952 on: September 02, 2017, 07:10:21 pm »
Charges in Napoleonic Re-enactment are kinda retarded anyway.

And quite unhistorical.

Online Olafson

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1953 on: September 02, 2017, 08:02:47 pm »
Charges in Napoleonic Re-enactment are kinda retarded anyway.

And quite unhistorical.

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Online Riddlez

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1954 on: September 03, 2017, 04:17:27 pm »
Lol, at Wavre I got almost stabbed in the face by a loaded rifle. Almost busted that man's head in. Decided to direct my aggression to at least slamming the barrel away from my face.

Could've gone by fucking Harvey Dent from that point, had it fired.

The complete cunt.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Online Olafson

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1955 on: September 03, 2017, 04:43:11 pm »
See- Just don't charge, run away.

It is a shame though that you have only been at pretty crappy events so far...

Online Toffee

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1956 on: September 03, 2017, 07:24:11 pm »
See- Just don't charge, run away.

It is a shame though that you have only been at pretty crappy events so far...
does riddlez do france?

Online Riddlez

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1957 on: September 03, 2017, 07:36:41 pm »
Riddlez does yes.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1958 on: September 03, 2017, 07:47:39 pm »
Then I suppose you can run away ayyy

Online Olafson

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1959 on: November 15, 2017, 11:08:53 am »
Dearest Olafson,

The 21eme is not required to listen to keyboard warriors. We welcome constructive criticism with pleasure face to face. Over here we strive for steadily improving our drill and impressions over time. We don't appreciate fellows with too much time on their hands and without proper manners trying to force their opinions and criticism down our throats.
Do we have small inaccuracies here and there? Certainly. We work on them and always strive to improve our impressions. We will however always carry our eagle into battle if we have it available, it means far more to us than any other reenactment unit, at least in this United Kingdom.
You may continue to complain and criticise how we do things if you wish, but I'm afraid such grievances from you will fall on deaf ears as you've sadly given yourself a poor impression. Being our own regiment means we have the liberty to operate how we please as we strive to improve our already considerable authenticity. And, more importantly, we bear the fact in mind that none of us are real soldiers. You're not really soldiers. We are everyday people taking a weekend off to socialise with friends and bring education and enjoyment to the public along the way.
So if you'd like to come over here and demonstrate your superiority or discuss drill with us face to face we welcome you to do so. We wait with baited breath. Hope we don't end up waiting as long as people have waited for Battle Cry of Freedom.

Kindest Regards

Amen Mr T, I even came back to this sad echo chamber just to say that. Vive La 21eme! <3

So I noticed that I was blocked from the 21e Facebook page, which assured me that my assumption was correct. You do not want to change.

Below is a picture I made to show some of the stuff that is wrong. I only took pictures from the official Facebook pages.
I do not claim that everything on this is correct, I am sure I am wrong on some points (Especially regarding officers and formation drill (Still learning that)). Please correct me if I am.
Oh yeah, plenty of spelling mistakes. But you will understand what I mean anyway.

Warning, huge picture:
Spoiler
[close]

So before you claim that our stuff is wrong too and that we do not want to change, I took some pictures from our official Facebook page and did the same with them:
Spoiler
[close]

Additionally here is a list that I do know that is wrong with our impressions (OMG I ACTUALLY ADMIT THAT THERE IS STUFF WRONG??? WOAAAAH):
- Cotton shirts
- Short cotton gaiters
- Short black gaiters
- No brass underneath shako covers
- Using 1809 Habits when we do events before 1809...
- Wrong pompoms
- I THINK (But am not sure yet) that the lining on our habits is wrong.

Here is everything wrong with our depot gear:
- One of the canteens is a wicker canteen
- Short Cotton gaiters
- Some of the shoes are the wrong model
- Some of the backpacks are the wrong model
- Some of the gilet vests are without arms
- Some of the habit vestes do not have fusilier epaulettes (They have none at all)
- Some of the trousers are cotton
- Artillery style Bonnet de police
- Some of the bayonet scabbards are the wrong model
- Wrong pompoms
- No brass underneath shako covers
- One of the shako covers is the wrong model

Why is there so much wrong with the Depot stuff?
Quite simple, because I put everything in the depot that we once had and exchanged with more proper gear.
So the depot stuff is a mix of good and bad stuff. Over the years I will get more and more good stuff and exchange the bad stuff in the Depot gear too, but it obviously takes time.
I want to be there in 1.5 - 2 years.

What we are currently working on/getting:
Linen Shirts (Means we can exchange 2 of the cotton shirts in depot with linen ones too)
New backpacks
Long Grey Gaiters
Long Black Gaiters
New and more Canteens
New Marmite
New Pompoms for all Periods (i.e. 3 different models * 10 (Because I also want to exchange the depot pompoms at the same time) = 30 new pompoms)

What we want to do soon (Sometime next year):
Shoes
Greatcoats
Woolen breeches
Proper neckties

Some of the stuff that is not completely done yet:
Shako brass - We have some of it done, but it takes time and is expensive.

Here is some recent proof that we do want to change:
Spoiler
[close]
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 12:44:28 pm by Olafson »

Offline Duuring

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1960 on: November 15, 2017, 12:42:15 pm »
Silly Olafson, everybody knows that seniority beats historical accuracy.

And to be totally fair, we're still researching the gloves-thing. If anyone has any historical drawings/paintings of these types of gloves (with half, cut-off fingers) being used, please send them to me.

Offline Duke Of LongTree

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1961 on: November 15, 2017, 03:17:55 pm »
When he is made enough to close Arma 3


Online Olafson

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1962 on: February 16, 2018, 05:37:45 pm »
Here is something I wrote yesterday regarding the 85e. I am 100% sure it also applies to the 21e. So have fun reading.
Quote
Hello there.
I would like to address some things I have noticed that I really would like to see addressed.
I am only listing the most important issues. Most importantly I am growing sick of the formation drill that is being done. It is extremely confusing and not historically inaccurate. Often times I do not understand where I am supposed to stand or to walk, because for some reason the NCOs are all over the place, not where they are supposed to be. Just like Privates, Officers and NCOs do have a designated spot in the line. There are also a bunch of commands given that never existed or were ordered like that, which just adds to the confusion. So below you will see my suggestions regarding these issues. I will also include a list with drawings and short explanations for various maneuvers. I hope this will help some of you, as I do have the feeling that some of you have never even looked into the manuals.

But first of all, if I write “85e” I mean the reenactment 85e not the historical one. I am going to ignore the British file for now, as it is not often that the Dutch and British file act together.
Additionally, in 95% of all cases, we see the 85e operating alone as a single peloton not attached to a battalion. As such, to keep this simple I am only going to address the most common manoeuvres the 85e executes on events. All of the stuff said below is only referring to a single peloton split from its battalion, so operating independently. If the peloton is acting in a battalion, all of this will be slightly different. A lot of the movements in the manual (i.e. almost all) assume that the Peloton is acting within a battalion. As such a lot of the movements will end up with the Chef de Peloton in front of his line. However, when a Peloton is not in column of companies, it will usually not have the officer in front of the line, but in the front rank on the right. So keep this in mind. I did not adjust the drawings of the Chef de Peloton to this fact. I did however, adjust the drawings of the Left Guide to it. The drawings might be a bit confusing as most of them are read from the bottom to the top. Just look at the big numbers on each frame, so you look up the correct order of each movement.

I am obviously not going through all the maneuvers a peloton can do, but I am going to cut all of this down to a reenactment sized unit and am only going to include ranks that the 85e actually has.

To start with, what ranks do you need in reenactment sized peloton, and what can you do with the ranks the 85e has “access” to.

Ranks and positions in the line
So let’s start listing what ranks there are available to the 85e at the moment.

Sous-Lieutenant
Sergent
Caporal-Fourrier
Caporal

Now if we would put them in their historical places we would have a very weird looking line.
But we are a small sized reenactment unit, so let’s compose them into something more logical.

What is the absolute minimum of positions a Peloton needs to have to function (more or less) properly?

Several Privates
Guide de droite
Guide de gauche

However, this makes it impossible to do a whole bunch of movements (like forming section columns), so it is preferable to have at least:

10 Privates (5 per section, as anything less than 5 per section makes no sense)
Chef de peloton
Guide de droite
Guide de gauche
Chef de 2e section   

How could the 85e fill those positions with their currently available ranks? It is not possible. To do it, we have to cheat. We have to put several people in positions which they would not have been in, but I guess that is acceptable for a reenactment peloton.

Chef de Peloton - Sous-Lieutenant
Guide de Droite - Caporal
Guide de gauche - Caporal
Chef de 2e Section - Sergent

Order of Battle
So here is a drawing of how it would look when in order of battle:
https://abload.de/img/peletonorderofbattlenlsk0.png

Marching by the Flank
The line now wants to form a marching column to the right or left and start marching off. Usually, the line just does a right face and left face and that is about it. However, this is wrong.
The chef de peloton should do a right face then do a step to the left,
the guide de droite should do a right face then also a step to the left.
The guide de gauche should move into the supernumerary file at the end of the line.
Everyone else simply does a right face.
https://abload.de/img/parleflanc29sy0.png

Forming into order of battle from marching by the flank
To go back to a line of battle the Chef de Peloton can give several commands. However, most commonly and the only one I am going to address for now is “Par Peloton en Ligne”.
Important to note here is that the soldiers do NOT wheel. They, as the manual says, simply “put forward the right shoulder” which basically means they turn 45 degree to the left, i.e. they do a half left face. Once they get in the same line as the right guide, they align to him and continue marching forward in battle order.
(edit: the image says “half right face” it should be “half left face”):
https://abload.de/img/parpeletonenligne5jsis.png

Firing in order of battle
Alright. So let’s say the line wants to start firing and is in battle order and standing still.
The Chef de Peloton will give the command for what type of firing he wants and then the guides will start moving behind the line into the supernumerary file. The Chef de Peloton will place himself in the center of the line 2 steps behind the serre file.
https://abload.de/img/feudepeletonzcsy5.png

Forming a column of sections
The line stopped firing and now wants to form sections to the right and move in a column of sections. The Chef de Peloton will order: “Par section a droite” and he will start moving 2 steps in front of his section. The Chef de 2e Section will move in front of his section. In this case the right guide does NOT step forward. He keeps his current position. Once everyone is in position, both section leaders will order “Marche” upon which they will start moving forward to the point where the end of his section (including guide) will be. The rightmost soldier on the front rank will do a right face and the rest of both sections will start wheeling. Both section leaders will order “halte” once the wings of their sections are 2 steps away from their intended targets. Upon the order of “halt” both guides will immediately start moving to their new positions right in front of their respective section leaders. Their left arms will lightly touch the breasts of their section leaders. Once the guides are in place, the section leaders will order to dress to the left and inspect if their men are in a proper straight line. Upon ordering “fixe” they will move back in front of their sections, ready to move out. Forming it to the left is the same just inverted.
https://abload.de/img/parsectionadroite2msmz.png

How do you do this when the line is moving / to the front? It is a lot more simple. The Chef de Peloton will order “Rompez le Peloton” upon which he and the leader of the second section will place them self in front of their respective sections. Once the Chef de 2e Section is in his position, he will order his section to mark the step. Once the first section which keeps marching forward has passed them, he will give the order to march to the left oblique. As soon as the second section leader is behind the first section leader he will give the order to march forward.
There is an important thing to note here. Oblique marching when forming a column of sections WHILE marching forward is done differently. Instead of keeping the shoulders straight, the soldiers will do a half right face and march like this until ordered to march forward again.
https://abload.de/img/rompezlepeletonyeszo.png

Forming into order of battle from a column of sections
Alright, let’s form a line again. The Chef de Peloton will shout “Formez le Peloton” and then give the order to oblique march to the right. (This time, it is the “real” oblique marching). At the same time, the right guide will move to the right side of his section. Once the left wing of the section has reached the right wing of the 2nd section, the Chef de Peloton will order the first section to “Marquez les Pas”. Just at the moment that the 2nd section meets up with the first section, he will tell give the order to march forward. At this moment, the Chef de 2e Section will move back into the supernumerary file, and the Chef de Peloton in front of the Peloton.
https://abload.de/img/formezlepeletonulst2.png

Additionally to forming a line to the front, you can form a line to the left or the right. Both ways are slightly different. Here is how you form it to the left from a column of sections.
First thing the chef de peloton has to do is to stop the column. Both section leaders will give the corresponding command. Right after the command has been given they will move to the left outside, facing the sections 2 steps away from the guides. They will then order to dress to the left. Once that is done, they will move back in front of their companies and the Chef de Peloton will give the order “ A gauche en bataille - Marche”. On “Marche” the two leftmost frontrank men will do a left face. The guides will stay in place. Both section leaders will wheel together with their men. Once their sections are almost in place, they will call “Halte”. At this point they will move to their respective positions in order of battle, the Chef de Peloton to the rightmost point and the Chef de 2e Section behind the center of the 2nd section. Once both are in their place, the Chef de Peloton will order to dress to the right. Once all the men are dressed the order “Guides a vos Places” is given, and the guides return to their positions in order of battle.
https://abload.de/img/agaucheenbattaile6zstr.png

Forming a line to the right from a section column is a little bit more complicated. Reason for that   is that the sections can not just go to the right as they would be the wrong way around.
First order that will be given is the order to move the guides to the right side of the line. This is important, because they will have to turn to the right in the next movement.
Once both guides are on the right of the line, the Chef de Peloton will order his section to turn to the right “Tournez a droite - March” Do not confuse tournez with conversion or oblique. It is something in between. The right guide will simply make a right face and keep marching forward. The rest of the section will turn their left shoulder forwards (I.e. doing a half right face) and they will march on the shortest way possible (WITHOUT RUNNING) to their respective places next to the guide. Once they reach the line of the guide they will align to him and march forward together. The 2nd section meanwhile will keep marching forward. Once the first section is in place of where the Chef de Peloton wants it to be, he ordered it to halt. Immediately after the right guide moves right in front of his leftmost file, facing towards the right and the Chef de Peloton moves to his position in order of battle. He will then tell his men to dress to the right.
Once the 2nd sections front rank is as high as the leftmost file of the first section the Chef de 2e Section will order his men to turn right. They will execute it the same way the 1st section did.
As soon as the Left Guide (Right guide of the section) is 2 steps away from the rear rank of the 1st section he will order it to halt. He will then immediately move 2 steps in front of the line of battle, facing his section. The Left guide will move to the position of his leftmost file, facing towards the right. Once both are in place, he will order the 2nd section to dress right. Immediately upon doing so, he will move back to his supernumerary file behind the line of battle. Once the Chef de Peloton has made sure that the line is properly dressed he will order the guides back to their places in line of battle.
https://abload.de/img/surladroiteenbattaileigsrk.png

Counter Marching / Turning around
Let’s assume that the line is facing direction A, but has to turn around to face direction B.
To do this, the Chef de Peloton will order “Contre-Marche, Peloton Par le flanc droite, a droite”
Upon which the line will form a marching column to the right as usual but for the exception of the left guide. He will instead stay in his place but turn around 180 degrees. Once this is done, the Chef de Peloton will give the order to start moving by files left. However, this time by files left is done 180 degrees instead of 90. The Chef de Peloton will lead his company two steps behind the left guide and will order them to halt and to face left. But instead of stepping back into line of battle, he will step forward to the right 2 steps away from the left guide. He will then order the line to dress to the right upon which they will dress towards the left guide, the right guide stepping behind him. Once everyone is in place he will order “Fixe” and all the guides will move back to their usual positions. The Chef de Peloton will place himself in front of his company.
https://abload.de/img/contremarcherns9r.png

Column of Companies
Lastly, the line wants to start moving forward in a column of companies. To do that, the Chef de peloton will move 2 steps in front of the center of the Peloton and give the command to start marching.
https://abload.de/img/peletonorderofbattlemdwsf0.png

Inspection of Arms/Knapsacks/Whatever (OPENING RANKS)
To open ranks, you do not simply tell the 2nd rank to march several steps backwards. The manual actually explicitly states that the soldiers DO NOT count steps.
So how do you do it? Simple. The Chef de Peloton orders the men to shoulder arms and then orders “Ouvrez vos Rangs” upon which the left and the right guide both move onto the line of the serre-file. Once they are in the supernumerary file, they face towards the center of the line.
The Chef de Peloton will then order “Marche”. The rear rank and the Chef de 2e Section then begin to slowly move backwards until the soldiers reach the space between the left and right guide. They automatically stop moving once they are in the right line. As soon as all soldiers stopped moving, the right guide will order them to dress left. Once dressed left, the right and left guide will both face front. To close, the Chef de Peloton simply orders “Serrez vos Rangs, Marche” (Ofc. the soldiers need to be in shoulder arms to do so) upon which the entire line returns to order of battle.
https://abload.de/img/ouvrezvosrangs39sy7.png

So that's it about formation drill stuff for now. The above list is obviously not complete. It is missing a bunch of stuff, but the most basic stuff is there. Anyway there are a few more things I would like to address.

Carrying Arms as Officer or NCO
Just like NCOs and Officers do have designated places in the line, they also do have designated ways on how to carry their weapons.
https://abload.de/img/1796951_6592841807939egsh0.jpg

Sergeants and acting Sergeants carry their guns in the right arm, just like on Fig.1.
Caporals DO NOT carry their guns like this (Unless they are acting as Sergeants). Caporals carry their guns just like normal soldiers. They also do load and fire just like normal soldiers do.

Officers (and I guess if you do not have a gun as Sergeants (but you should have a gun), do the exact same) can carry their sword in 2 different ways. Fig.2 shows how it is carried when the officer is standing in the line. Fig.3 shows how the officer carries his sword when he is not inside the line.

A few more things about ways to carry guns
When ordering “Serrez vos Rangs” every soldier automatically goes to “L’arm au bras”.
Upon ordering “Halte” every soldier automatically goes to “Portez vos Arm”
When static and the order to “L’arm au bras” is given, the soldier does not grab his gun with the right hand. When moving, and the same order is given the soldier is free to grab the gun with his right hand. While technically optional, evidence shows this was almost always done (because why make yourself more tired then you need to be?). The drill instruction says that the soldier is also allowed to carry the weapon ‘comfortable’ while marching in Au Bras. Evidence suggests this developed into this pose:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-smQHFfxEEo4/UW1Tigp8dMI/AAAAAAAAEmY/oS2PFHsFc1M/s640/resolver+(3).jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/c9/ec/e8/c9ece88dc0418f75982ddd616e9b6ec4.jpg

About shooting stances
I noticed recently that new members are not being teached proper firing stances. This is very dangerous as it can easily lead to someone tripping over if the recoil becomes to much. Just look at the 0:19 mark on this video. I was not standing properly and my front leg was slightly bend which almost caused me to trip over due to the heavy recoil. I have seen way worse from the new members, from completely bend legs to backwards bend bodies. Recoil on flintlocks is very unpredictable so teaching a good firing stance is important.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sChMpfH3sL3HhBEv1tHbn7EaLS-dso3t/view

Placements of Drummers in the Peloton
Now, while this is not super historically accurate, I do recommend putting the Drummers either in the Supernumerary file behind one of the sections, or 2-6 steps behind the Chef de 2e Section. This is neither more or less accurate as whatever is done right now, but at least it is consistent.

Firing commands with drums
For some reason in the past firing commands have been issued with a drum roll, which is complete bullshit. A drum roll indicates to cease fire. Firing at the end of a drum roll makes absolutely no sense.

Placement of Eagles in the line

First of all, if you are operating as a single company what is the point of having an Eagle. It is very unlikely that a single company carried an Eagle. It is a thing to indicate the center of the battalion and to align the battalion along that Eagle. A single company does not really have the need for it. Additionally, where would that Eagle be placed. In reality, the company to the right center of the battalion would carry the Eagle. The Eagle would be, including its Eagle guards be placed on the left flank of the company. This would result in the Eagle being in the perfect center of the battalion. Now for a single company placing the Eagle on the left would not make much sense. Placing it in the center however would not be accurate either. That would mean that company is basically a battalion, which it is not…
So what to do? I have no idea. Maybe just leave the Eagle at home unless you are actually acting in a battalion. Otherwise it serves no purpose and makes no sense. Also, if you absolutely have to have an eagle, please place your Caporal-Fourrier next to it, so that that ranks finally serves a purpose.

Numbering of files
Historically the NCO/Chef de Peloton would give each file a number from 1-however many files there are. This is very important as that way the Chef de Peloton can easily address each file with their number. It also helps with certain movements like forming a Stack of Arms, as each file will know what they have to do.

Height of soldiers and forming ranks
When forming a company, the NCO/Chef de Peloton will arrange them in a single file, from the right to the left. The smallest men are on the left, the tallest men are on the right.
He will then split the line evenly into 3 parts (For reenactment 2) the third part on the right will be the front rank and therefore be made out of the tallest men, the third part on the left will be the second rank and therefore be made out of the smallest men. The remaining part will be the third rank and will be all remaining men. This makes sense, as the tallest men in the front will look the most impressive when marching to the front. When shooting, the front rank will also crouch down, making it much easier for the 2nd rank to fire over the first rank and the 3rd rank is naturally slightly taller than the 2nd rank, so they will not have a hard time aiming either.



Online Riddlez

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1963 on: February 19, 2018, 05:09:11 pm »
Well... I said what I had to say in a response to this on facebook...
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Online Olafson

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Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #1964 on: February 19, 2018, 09:47:57 pm »
I know. This is just for the 21e. So I can piss them off.