Ukraine

[MarshalKim]

Nigel is entertaining but seems to be building up a dossier for UK elections. Also the UKIP founder calls him a racist twit and started another fringe party.
Also Nigel doesn't really like Romanians but I do enjoy his parades within the EU.

Irony is that hes the most Right Wing republican-esque person to come out of the UK. Many Americans would love him.

[MaxLam]

I believe that we should respect the right of people to self-determination. If western Ukrainians want to be ruled by their "chocolate king" and his Svoboda and Right Sector lackeys, so be it. If the mostly Russian-speaking inhabitants of Donbass want their independance, this is their right too. If the right of people to self-determination had been respected from the very beginning, Ukraine could have remained a united country. Unfortunately, national hatred and stupidity led to this kind of situation (including of course Yanukovych's own stupidity).

[Riddlez]

I believe that we should respect the right of people to self-determination. If western Ukrainians want to be ruled by their "chocolate king" and his Svoboda and Right Sector lackeys, so be it. If the mostly Russian-speaking inhabitants of Donbass want their independance, this is their right too. If the right of people to self-determination had been respected from the very beginning, Ukraine could have remained a united country. Unfortunately, national hatred and stupidity led to this kind of situation (including of course Yanukovych's own stupidity).

And start off with actually argumenting your viewpoints, perhaps?
You're on to a good start anyways...

[MarshalKim]

I believe that we should respect the right of people to self-determination. If western Ukrainians want to be ruled by their "chocolate king" and his Svoboda and Right Sector lackeys, so be it. If the mostly Russian-speaking inhabitants of Donbass want their independance, this is their right too. If the right of people to self-determination had been respected from the very beginning, Ukraine could have remained a united country. Unfortunately, national hatred and stupidity led to this kind of situation (including of course Yanukovych's own stupidity).

Everyone knows that and some of this information is irrelevant to the problem. The debate is centered around "who to believe" because the government in Ukraine does everything to kill all legitimacy about Donetsk and the East pro Russian sentiments. Saying that the people there are a minority and sub human.


But no even your hippie, peaceful and considerate opinion is denied by the U.S and the Ukrainian government.


#1 Ukraine's constitution doesn't allow separation and any territorial change without a vote to which the WHOLE of Ukraine takes part in.
(In Quebec, there is separatist parties and everyone recognizes them. Only the people of that province vote on the separation.)
(Almost everyone in the world supports the idea of a kurdish state and how it's unfair their self determination is denied.)

So the U.S and Ukraine enforce an unfair constitution on the basis that it's not fair and freedom loving to not follow ones own constitution.
Implying that laws and rights are unquestionable, 100% legit and everyone should adhere to them.


There is no problem about Western Ukraine electing who ever they want as long as they respect UN established human rights. As a start Ukraine should start reporting hate crimes too because according to Alexander Feldman, president of the Association of National and Cultural Unions of Ukraine, "People attacked on racial grounds do not report the incidents to the police and police often fail to classify such attacks as racially motivated and often write them off as domestic offence or hooliganism".

There is no government data collection or regular public reporting expressly on violent hate crimes. The most reliable information is produced by NGO and IGO monitoring. Thus, it is impossible to see the full extent of the problem. Human Rights First and Amnesty International released reports on the dramatic rise of hate-motivated violence in Ukraine.

[Bruin]

Lithuania wants Ukraine back.D:<

[MaxLam]

It's funny that you consider a fundamental principle such as the right of people to self-determination "hippie", but not the usual western jingle about "human rights", which you are using there too, except it's supposedly directed against pro-western positions. The question of self-determination is certainly much more important since this war didn't start because of a lack of respect for "human rights", but rather because of an infrigement of basic democratic principles.

If my "hippie" right of people to self-determination was respected by the US and western-European governments, they would:
1. Recognize that Crimea is part of Russia.
2. Recognize the right of the Donbass population to hold a referendum like Scotland did a few days ago.
Yet they don't.

[MarshalKim]

It's funny that you consider a fundamental principle such as the right of people to self-determination "hippie", but not the usual western jingle about "human rights", which you are using there too, except it's supposedly directed against pro-western positions. The question of self-determination is certainly much more important since this war didn't start because of a lack of respect for "human rights", but rather because of an infrigement of basic democratic principles.

If my "hippie" right of people to self-determination was respected by the US and western-European governments, they would:
1. Recognize that Crimea is part of Russia.
2. Recognize the right of the Donbass population to hold a referendum like Scotland did a few days ago.
Yet they don't.

I meant that presenting everything in morally guided manner while conventionally forgetting about the geopolitical implications is hippie.
I never professed that human rights was  more or less hippy then self determination. It's indeed irrelevant... Because what matters isn't what I deem to be more important but rather the blatant double standards enforced by the U.S and Ukraine.

Your beliefs on self determination and if they were respected are irrelevant not because they are incorrect. (note I fully support your point). Both sides argue that they "respect" the right to self determination, other UN crap and so forth.

The U.S and Ukraine claim that the people in Donbass and Crimea don't actually want self determination. They are being pushed around by evil Putin and misguided by evil Russian lies and so THEY are the ones who are truly guided by real moral standards.
This is all bullshit, morality has no place in geopolitics. Who ever is abusing its citizens the least or who ever has the more rational arguments is probably the "good guy" or at-least the guy that should be achieving it's geopolitical objectives.


The Ukrainian constitution doesn't even permit the right to self determination. It says you cant do any territorial change unless the whole country votes on it.


Don't get me wrong I fully agree with your point of view and the Scotland referendum is a perfect example of something that needs to be respected. Hence the only way forth to ensure nations like Kurdistan could ever be born. I'm just saying that this conflict is beyond having morally guided ideals. The only way to gain any ground is to prove that the opposition is an asshole and expose the double standards of all sides.

[MarshalKim]

Lithuania wants Ukraine back.D:<

I love you. Nice post.

[KL4R1N0G4MPR0S]

Another thoughtful contribution to the discussion on the issues at hand.

2XDOUBLEPOSTZ FTW

[MaxLam]

The right of people to self-determination isn't a question of morale, it's a political principle (or position) and the best way to solve the national question in general. For this very reason we should all support the right to self-determination. Of course both sides can argue that they respect this right, but both don't, and the western side especially doesn't.

The right to self-determination is the right to decide for your own people, and this imply that you can choose separation, autonomy, or something different. The right to self-determination doesn't necessarily mean independance, it means freedom to decide. So as long as you refuse the right of a population to hold a free referendum on its future, with options such as autonomy and independance, or even union, this right isn't respected. A population can't refuse self-determination. They can refuse independance, but they can't refuse self-determination.

Had the eastern Ukrainians been given the freedom to vote at the very beginning of this conflict, the overwhelming majority would have refused secession and probably chosen more autonomy. All opinion polls proved that. Ukraine would have remained united this way. But since the Kievan so-called nationalists refused any kind of compromise, and tried to crush the rebellion with the most violent means, and since they made this crackdown on Russian language, they lost everything. They lost Crimea, and important cities in the East, and above all their national pride. What a pity for a "nationalist"!

Of course imperialist interests in the West, and also in the East, don't care about the right of people to self-determination (except when it's in their interest). But I don't own a coal mine or a pipeline, I'm a simple citizen as probably most people on this forum. So when I defend the right of people to self-determination, it's not a question of morale, it's in my interest, and in the interest of the overwhelming majority of the population of Ukraine.

It's probably not in the interest of the Chocolate King indeed. It's not even in the interest of Russian oligarchs. I understand perfectly why they go at war, but I'm not playing a wargame with them. Also note that in the USSR geopolitics as an academic discipline were forbidden and considered fascist. That's not what you meant of course, but that's probably what the duginists mean when they talk about geopolitics.

[Augy]

Thats all well and all but their powers of self-determination ends once they have pointed at somebody and say, “lead us".
Until the next election, their opinions no longer matter.

[Archduke Sven]

Spoiler

[close]

nigel could not be more correct

[MaxLam]

That's rather a problem of democracy. What we usually mean by self-determination is the possibility to determinate as a people or as a nation, i.e. the fact that the internal problems of a people are decided amongst this people and not by foreign powers. The question of who rules inside this country comes after that, it's secondary since democracy would be pointless if your country is ruled by foreign powers. This is true for the Ukrainian eastern regions of course, those guys felt oppressed after Maidan's victory. However we have to recognize that this is also true for the western Galicians, who feel oppressed by Russia. We mustn't forget that, no matter which side we support in this war.

[Duuring]

Thats all well and all but their powers of self-determination ends once they have pointed at somebody and say, “lead us".
Until the next election, their opinions no longer matter.

That idea is as short-sighted as it is untrue. A politician is not chosen to do as his voters please, but to represent them. Democracy is about finding middle ground - you should understand that, being such a big fan of 'workplace' democracy.

[MaxLam]

It's obvious that if someone don't agree with those who elected him, he can't "represent" them very well. And there is different kinds of democratic systems. You can have "consensus democracy" in which a tiny minority can oppose a veto, but quite often democracy is rather about the victory of 51% of the population against 49%, and how you reach those 51% depends on the country. If you are right-wing and have a strong far right in your country, your will probably lean to the right. That's not consensus democracy, quite the contrary actually.