Poll

Are the "Oldest Pyramids of the world" that were found in Crimea, the real reason for the War?

Yes! Putin only took Crimea because of the alien pyramids.
13 (61.9%)
Yes! I don't believe that the pyramids were made by aliens, but I do believe that Russia took Crimea because of the incredible cultural treasures hidden inside them.
8 (38.1%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 373948 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4110 on: March 06, 2015, 07:42:55 pm »
Some actions=A bill that made Ukrainian the only official state language. Russian media said 'RUSSIAN LANGUAGE IS FORBIDDEN', and I'm pretty sure those lunatics contributed a lot more to the crisis then the bill, which didn't even make it.

You do need to be a state to claim self-determination. If a certain part of a state wants independence, the government of the state is allowed to crack down on them as hard as they want. Like the Russians did in Chechnya.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 07:45:10 pm by Duuring »

Offline Suede

  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 210
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4111 on: March 06, 2015, 09:12:04 pm »
Quote
some actions were taken against Russian language
Aren't we done with it yet?
1. Ukrainian language always was the only official state language
2. Bill of the Ukraine "On the Principles of State Language Policy"
Документ 5029-17, чинний, поточна редакція — Редакція від 06.09.2014, підстава 1556-18
'Чинний' means valid, real, active, actual, nothing were forbidden or removed or vetoed since this bill was voted

Offline Suede

  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 210
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4112 on: March 06, 2015, 09:26:08 pm »
For example, the inhabitants of New Caledonia don't have a state, they are part of France. However, since we are not fascists and abandoned colonialism a long time ago, we recognize their right to self-determination and they will have the possibility to secede and become an independant country with its own state.
And what about Corsica, Breton? Looks like you do not want to recognize their right to self-determination that much, since they even created radical organizations and betake to the acts of terrorism :) ?

Offline MaxLam

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 1343
  • Founder of Minisiege, EU_Commander & Mininaval
    • View Profile
    • Napoleonic Wars Public
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4113 on: March 06, 2015, 09:27:35 pm »
Quote from: Duuring
You do need to be a state to claim self-determination. If a certain part of a state wants independence, the government of the state is allowed to crack down on them as hard as they want. Like the Russians did in Chechnya.
When the Algerians claimed their right to self-determination, they were part of France. And yet that's exactly what we call self-determination. You confuse sovereignty and self-determination.

Offline Archduke Sven

  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • Posts: 6012
  • I have over 1000 warning points, be careful.
    • View Profile
  • Nick: regimentless sven
  • Side: Union
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4114 on: March 06, 2015, 09:35:52 pm »
Quote from: Duuring
You do need to be a state to claim self-determination. If a certain part of a state wants independence, the government of the state is allowed to crack down on them as hard as they want. Like the Russians did in Chechnya.
When the Algerians claimed their right to self-determination, they were part of France. And yet that's exactly what we call self-determination. You confuse sovereignty and self-determination.

You make no sense. You do realise France fought a brutal war against Algeria when they wanted to become an independent state, along the lines of self-determination due to them being a seperate linguistic, ethnic, culture identities along with being on another continent... And then France doesnt support any independence movements from Corsica, and labels the 'freedom' fighters as terrorists just like in Ukraine.

Your example of New Caledonia is so irrelevant it's laughable. A fucking island on the other side of the planet that France has no real benefit of owning and you think that France is being some kind of savior by allowing an island that couldn't exist by itself to be an independent nation (IF they wanted to)?



told that bih don't @ me

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4115 on: March 06, 2015, 10:18:24 pm »
Algeria and Caledonia are overseas colonies. Crimea isn't.

Offline Turin Turambar

  • Major General
  • **
  • Posts: 3738
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4116 on: March 06, 2015, 10:44:18 pm »
It is called self-determination of nations, not self-determination of countries.
des is apsichtdliche Browokazion etzala ferstest du

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4117 on: March 06, 2015, 10:50:24 pm »
What it's called is meaningless.

Basically, self-determination is outdated by roughly...70 years? Dunno why we still cling on to it.

Offline MaxLam

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 1343
  • Founder of Minisiege, EU_Commander & Mininaval
    • View Profile
    • Napoleonic Wars Public
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4118 on: March 06, 2015, 10:53:28 pm »
Quote
You make no sense. You do realise France fought a brutal war against Algeria when they wanted to become an independent state, along the lines of self-determination due to them being a seperate linguistic, ethnic, culture identities along with being on another continent... And then France doesnt support any independence movements from Corsica, and labels the 'freedom' fighters as terrorists just like in Ukraine.

Your example of New Caledonia is so irrelevant it's laughable. A fucking island on the other side of the planet that France has no real benefit of owning and you think that France is being some kind of savior by allowing an island that couldn't exist by itself to be an independent nation (IF they wanted to)?
France has the second biggest maritime boundaries in the world which represent an incredible geostrategic and economic opportunity. That's all thanks to the "fucking islands on the other side of the planet", because even a tiny fucking island has an enormous EEZ. You insult people without knowing, that's a shame but not surprising. France isn't "supporting" the independance movement, it's recognizing the right of the inhabitants of New Caledonia to self-determination. That's totally different.

Quote
And what about Corsica, Breton? Looks like you do not want to recognize their right to self-determination that much, since they even created radical organizations and betake to the acts of terrorism :) ?
Every people has a right to self-determination. In the case of Brittany and Corsica it wouldn't be democratic to make a referendum because an insignificant part of the population wants it. However if an increasing number of people started struggling for this, the French people would probably do as the English did with Scotland.

Quote from: Suede
And what about Corsica, Breton? Looks like you do not want to recognize their right to self-determination that much, since they even created radical organizations and betake to the acts of terrorism :) ?
For a Frenchman, the idea that Corsica could be anything else than French is laughable, especially since Napoleon himself was Corsican. As for Brittany, this makes no sense. We couldn't imagine our country without Cosmao-Kerjulien, Kerguelen, Anne de Bretagne queen of France. But of course every people has a right to self determination, and if they want their independance, we might consider it. The problem is that there is no Breton people anymore. The overwhelming majority of Bretons don't speak Breton, which has almost disappeared. Therefore it's not possible to compare those regions to New Caledonia, which was/is a colony, and certainly not to the eastern regions of Ukraine, in which most of the population don't speak the national language and where an important part of the population has taken arms against the government.

Quote
Algeria and Caledonia are overseas colonies. Crimea isn't.
Algeria was a French territory divided into départements just like the rest of the French territory. From the point of view of the French government, and the French supportive of this government, Algeria was part of the metropolis. It wasn't a colony. It had been a French territory for more than 100 years. Crimea however, was gifted to Ukraine not so long ago, and moreover they had an important autonomy. In both cases some people thought that this was their territory because they owned it since a few decades but never asked the opinion of the inhabitants.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 10:56:14 pm by MaxLam »

Offline Archduke Sven

  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • Posts: 6012
  • I have over 1000 warning points, be careful.
    • View Profile
  • Nick: regimentless sven
  • Side: Union
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4119 on: March 06, 2015, 11:00:31 pm »
Quote
You make no sense. You do realise France fought a brutal war against Algeria when they wanted to become an independent state, along the lines of self-determination due to them being a seperate linguistic, ethnic, culture identities along with being on another continent... And then France doesnt support any independence movements from Corsica, and labels the 'freedom' fighters as terrorists just like in Ukraine.

Your example of New Caledonia is so irrelevant it's laughable. A fucking island on the other side of the planet that France has no real benefit of owning and you think that France is being some kind of savior by allowing an island that couldn't exist by itself to be an independent nation (IF they wanted to)?
France has the second biggest maritime boundaries in the world which represent an incredible geostrategic and economic opportunity. That's all thanks to the "fucking islands on the other side of the planet", because even a tiny fucking island has an enormous EEZ. You insult people without knowing, that's a shame but not surprising. France isn't "supporting" the independance movement, it's recognizing the right of the inhabitants of New Caledonia to self-determination. That's totally different.

Ok then show me what this 'enormous geostrategic opportunity' is doing for France? All they have to lose is an island and an invisible boundary somewhere on the other side of the planet. It is more interesting to see what happens when it's closer to home, i.e. Corsica where the separatist movement there are branded terrorists.

Plus i saw how you circumvented my part about Corsica, not really surprised though. It's quite obvious you're defending France like a little mug.


told that bih don't @ me

Offline Turin Turambar

  • Major General
  • **
  • Posts: 3738
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4120 on: March 06, 2015, 11:10:40 pm »
What it's called is meaningless.

Basically, self-determination is outdated by roughly...70 years? Dunno why we still cling on to it.
Just because people give a shit about it it's not outdated.
des is apsichtdliche Browokazion etzala ferstest du

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4121 on: March 06, 2015, 11:24:35 pm »
Hahaha. Oh yes. It's outdated. It created Yugoslavia.

Offline Turin Turambar

  • Major General
  • **
  • Posts: 3738
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4122 on: March 06, 2015, 11:38:04 pm »
I find this development kinda interesting. When Crimea joined Russia one year ago most of the NATO-Ideologists just said: "That's against the law of nations."

That was obviously utter bullshit. The exact opposite was the case. So now, one year later they say: "There is no law of nations."

I just read an article from DIE WELT where an ex-communist explained me that religion, nationalism and ofc the law of nations were an evil that we had to exterminate.
One of the first sentences was: "But this law does not exist. Instead we have the European Union."

To me that's like saying "There is no press freedom. Instead we have censorship."
des is apsichtdliche Browokazion etzala ferstest du

Offline MaxLam

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 1343
  • Founder of Minisiege, EU_Commander & Mininaval
    • View Profile
    • Napoleonic Wars Public
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4123 on: March 06, 2015, 11:44:40 pm »
Quote from: Sven
Ok then show me what this 'enormous geostrategic opportunity' is doing for France? All they have to lose is an island and an invisible boundary somewhere on the other side of the planet.
Nickel on the island, and maybe oil in the so-called "invisible boundary", which is still a EEZ.


Quote
It is more interesting to see what happens when it's closer to home, i.e. Corsica where the separatist movement there are branded terrorists.

Plus i saw how you circumvented my part about Corsica, not really surprised though. It's quite obvious you're defending France like a little mug.
No I answered to Suede who made the same point. Moreover we call them independantists, not terrorists. Independantists are allowed to run in elections in both regions. There is some bombings every year, but only a part of the independantists are doing that, it's rare that those bombings target civilians or actually kill people. Comparing that to actual terrorist activities, like what is happening in the Middle East, would be a real shame.

Offline Akko

  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4124 on: March 07, 2015, 12:50:29 am »
Shit, for some reason I completely glossed over it because of his spelling. Fuckin Poles.

Lelelelelelel