Ukraine

[Duuring]

There were hundreds of thousands protesters. And outside of Kiev, more then half of the regional government buildings were taken over.

And what do you mean with 'destroying'? Building barricades and setting police buses on fire isn't exactly a regular Saturdays activity, but it certainly isn't destruction.

[Archduke Sven]

No, unfortunately I can't speak Russian good enough to listen to Russian news. I just know, that few hundreds of masked people destroying centre of capital isn't "voice of the nation". They're just vandals. By the way, why do you claim, that Russian version is propaganda, and European is truth   

I bet you don't think the Poles who staged the Warsaw Uprising weren't 'just vandals'...

[Raddeo]

Concerning hundreds of thousands, take into consideration, that since riots really started this number melted. Just look at any kind of tv news or online camera. On most of them there are just few bunches of people on Maidan, for sure there are not "hundreds of thousands" at the present.

Destroying pavement, burning cars and buses, building barricades (yup, they're not made of snow). And do you think that "taking over" goernment building isn't connected with breaking doors, windows and everything what is inside? In democracy (which in theory EU supports) government should be chosen in elections, not riots.

Archduke, are you kidding? Tell me, when you see militia killing few hundreds of random Ukrainians who were just walking to their work. Then you'll have right to talk about Warsaw Uprising. Or maybe some concentration camps? It's strange, but I can't find anything like that in Ukraine...

[Duuring]

A few broken doors and windows is all the damage those buildings suffered. Have you actually seen one video of picture of their capture? Protestors walk straight to the governors office and....Remove the presidents picture from the wall. That's it. There has been no looting, which extraordinary to say the least.

There were no barricades until January the 19th. Then the government passed anti-protest laws, which were a direct violation of the rights of the Ukrainian people. Even then, there were no barricades until the police made charges. The barricades are purely a defensive move.

In democracy (which in theory EU supports) government should be chosen in elections, not riots.

So Russia doesn't support democracy? By the way, in a democracy, a government doesn't pass anti-protest laws that makes it illegal to write a anti-protest text. The protests are aimed at new elections. That's what they want - Democracy.

[Archduke Sven]

So Ukrainians aren't allowed to rebel against a non democratic government because then they are just vandals? But when someone else does it it's alright? Ok, nice we got that sorted...

[Raddeo]

Yup I saw videos. When few militiamen (I don't know correct word ) hid inside such building. Peacefull protesters were charging it with battering rams and molotovs...

So they want elections? And then they will choose new govermnet and whose who support Yanukovych will start new riots? Viva democracy Concerning anti-protest law, isn't it normal that when riots starts in middle of country it's duty of government to make law which will allow them to stop these riots?

Archduke, I guess you're still talking about Warsaw Uprising? Then for God's sake read something about Nazis and their occupation of Poland and then compare it with Ukraine. Ukraine is not under occupation of enemy nation, Ukraine is not at war. Warsaw Uprising was part of war agains Germany where Poles were trying to liberate their country.

[Archduke Sven]

Yeah, you know the Ukrainians aren't at all trying to liberate themselves from a fascist government. There totally aren't Ukrainians being oppressed or anything.

[Raddeo]

Yeah, you know it's normal at Ukraine to be killed in the middle of street by militia just because you're Ukrainian. Totally, hundreds of Ukrainians are every day killed in public executions.

[Archduke Sven]

I just find it unbelievable that you say the Ukrainian revolutionaries cause is unjust while that of the Poles was. Extremely ignorant.

Even if the circumstances are different, the cause is similar.

[Raddeo]

Nope, it's just not.
I don't know political situation in Sweden, but what would you think, if communist/fascist/any_other opposition party started riots and demanded earlier elections. Of course, if present goverment won, protesters would say that elections were fake. Don't say that Ukrainians aren't fascist because a) some of them are (yeah, there are a lot of extreme nationalists on Maidan), b) it's not about views, it's about situation.
And what would you think, if foreign coutry invaded your country and then your nation would try to liberate?

btw. do I see it correct, that you have nazi soldier in your avatar?

[Duuring]

Concerning anti-protest law, isn't it normal that when riots starts in middle of country it's duty of government to make law which will allow them to stop these riots?

NO. What on earth are you talking about? All laws concerning public safety are already in place. Making new laws that pretty much takes away your civil rights (without putting martial law in place) is a Orwellian move.

Yup I saw videos. When few militiamen (I don't know correct word ) hid inside such building. Peacefull protesters were charging it with battering rams and molotovs...

Not a 'few militiamen'. More then a hundred soldiers (inner army), and not militia (Berkut)m that were garrisoning the building between the two main plazas (so behind the barricades). The attack on the building was an act of defense, as holding the building would allow the government to disconnect the two plazas. The soldiers refused to leave, after which it was attacked. And by the way, the fight took no longer then a half hour, after which there were negations. The protestors allowed medics in the building to take care of four wounded soldiers, and after a few hours the 'garrison' of the building was allowed to leave peacefully.

So they want elections? And then they will choose new govermnet and whose who support Yanukovych will start new riots? Viva democracy

What's your point? A dictator should be kept in place because there's a slim change the ever-crimping minority that supports him (Don't even start on the 'pro-government rallies') might riot? They haven't so far. There are no pro-government militias, apart from those on the governments payroll.

And besides, it's a democracy, so his supporters have every right to take to the streets, as long as the supporters of the opposition do to.

Don't say that Ukrainians aren't fascist because a) some of them are (yeah, there are a lot of extreme nationalists on Maidan),

Fascist and nationalist is not the same. The posts about fascist presence on the Maidan are ridiculous. One showed a big rally of fascists - In summer weather - claiming he just took that on the maidan. Sure there are a few. Maybe more then a view. The point is that they all want the same - elections. There's really no single political identity.

[Raddeo]

And besides, it's a democracy, so his supporters have every right to take to the streets, as long as the supporters of the opposition do to.

I have always thought that one of biggest "inventions" of democracy are free elections. You're claiming, that those who have stronger supporters ready to fight in riots should rule the country. Great vision...

NO. What on earth are you talking about? All laws concerning public safety are already in place. Making new laws that pretty much takes away your civil rights (without putting martial law in place) is a Orwellian move.

Do you consider right to protest in masks and helmets one of your basic civil right? Or is your freedom established by right to put tents in the middle of the street to block half of the city? Or maybe by right to insult people in internet (yup, it's one of thinks that have been forbidden by "didcator laws"). Good that in all civilised countries treatening policemen isn't considered a crime. So any new laws about public safety are evil? Because all needed laws are already there? You have strange way of thinking. So what is mission of government? Just to look nice on the photos? Of course, some of the new laws were a bit too strict, but emergency situations need emergency laws.

Don't even start on the 'pro-government rallies'

Yup, I know, Western medias claim that they were paid by government. If someone says that Euromaidan was paid by western cuntries (what in fact wouldn't be suprising thing) would you believe it that?

And at the end everything is coming to one simple fact. Klitschko is trying to sell his country to EU (don't tell me how good EU is I can see it just outside my doors). Take also in consideration, that Russia would simply destroy Ukraine if it join EU. Not by war of course, by gas prices which are now veeery low in Ukraine. Big part of Ukrainian economy is addicted to Russia. EU is also just waiting for opportunity to take over Ukrainian economy. So no matter whether Klitschko is right or not, he's going to destroy his country. (I know Klitschko isn't the only opposition leader, i just like to use his surname as kind of shortcut )

No you don't see correct it's a german soldier.

Heh, yeah. That's right, we shouldn't call them Nazis, they were Germans. And Germans, not Nazis started WW2. Thanks for correcting me.

[Duuring]

The EU is a democratic institution. Nobody is forced to join it. Poland and the Ukraine couldn't chose to have capitalist governments.

I'm not seeing it as 'The glorious EU'. It's not a perfect idea. It's not even an idea. It's a collections of treaties, obligations, promises and institutions. It's just ridiculous that people blame it for all their problems. You are claiming the EU doesn't help Poland? Here people claim the Poles are stealing our money and getting too much help by the EU. Who is right? Or are both wrong?

And let's not have that nazi/anti-commie/hitlerfans/hitlerhaters-discussion. We aren't Americans.

[Death by EMP]

I found this to be a good documentary on the event. I know, I know, Vice, booohoo, they do make good documentaries every once in a while.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oei0AoCn2A[/youtube]

[Prince_Eugen]

1) I dont want to go on street and perform illegal acts against goverment, doesnt matter how i view it - the new election will be in 2015, have some patience people, and choose new tyrant
2) Nothing will save this country, then a turning into federation without president and with full decentralisation.
3) I live in this country for 21 year (only 5 of them as actual citizen, when i received passport) and every year since 1991 there's persistent war for president's place. This war hadnt begun this year, it lasted for 23 years already and what is happening now is nothing more then an attempt of opposition to take over rule via illegal act - riot.