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Community / Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« on: November 09, 2013, 07:25:34 pm »
Yes, people fought in the war for many different reasons, but slavery was what brought about the conflict.
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Off Topic / Re: Do you have any Middle Age ancestors?
« on: November 01, 2013, 05:44:53 am »
That's quite impressive to trace ones ancestry back to the middle ages 
I know virtually nothing about my family history, except that my dads family seems to come mostly from the South (USA), although I'm not sure how far back. They are kind of all over the place and not very close, and I don't really know any of them, so I'll probably never really know my family history 
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I know virtually nothing about my family history, except that my dads family seems to come mostly from the South (USA), although I'm not sure how far back. They are kind of all over the place and not very close, and I don't really know any of them, so I'll probably never really know my family history .
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General Discussion / Re: Why BCOF is a silly idea for a sequel to NW
« on: October 30, 2013, 03:20:44 am »
I don't know about you, but I am able to take interest in historical events and periods, even if my country was not directly involved in it. I'm sure that plenty of Americans played NW, even though it's not directly about our national history....And just because you didn't study it in school, doesn't mean that it isn't an interesting topic, and maybe by playing the game you will learn something .
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Off Topic / Re: What Country are you from?
« on: October 30, 2013, 03:13:42 am »
I live in the USA Born and raised in Michigan, but currently residing in Tennessee.
Born and raised in Michigan, but currently residing in Tennessee.
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Off Topic / Re: What state,county,province,etc are you from?
« on: October 30, 2013, 03:08:38 am »
I was born and raised in Michigan, USA. I am currently residing in Tennessee, near Nashville.
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Historical Discussion / Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« on: October 30, 2013, 02:12:09 am »
I'm going to go with Lincoln and Grant. Lincoln was a great and principled leader, who saw the US through the toughest time in its history, and ultimately helped assure its preservation as one nation. He also issued the emancipation proclamation, and championed hard for the 13th amendment which liberated many people from bondage. Grant was a great military general who stepped up to the challenge posed by Lee, and outdid him, at a time when it was needed most. He had a tough time as president, but that wasn't really all his fault, considering the challenges of the reconstruction.
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Historical Discussion / Re: "Lincon was a tyrant"
« on: October 30, 2013, 01:42:54 am »
Did all of those people need to die in a bloody Civil War? No, the war didn't HAVE to happen, but were those deaths the fault of Lincoln? not necessarily. Why would it make sense to put all of the blame on Lincoln, for the bloodshed and death toll in the war, but not put the same blame on Jefferson Davis? It was actually the Confederates who attacked first, at Fort Sumter, so it was not Abraham Lincoln or the Union military which initiated the armed conflict. Some have said that slavery was a national institution, and not just a thing of the South, in order to claim that slavery was not the cause of the Civil War. It is true that slavery existed all over the Union, but by the time Lincoln became President, only four of the 26 states which would remain loyal to the Union, still had legalized slavery: Missouri, Kentucky, Rhode Island, Delaware; and many of the Midwestern and far western states, never had legalized slavery during their history as States.
Many argue that Lincoln was a tyrant, based on the idea that other nations had ended slavery without civil wars, usually by paying money to the plantation owners. This is a misnomer, not only because political and social conditions of the US were unique, but because the Southern States did not even give Lincoln and his administration a chance to do anything like this, since they seceded before he even took office. Also, someone argued that Lincoln could have freed slaves in the North, in order to avoid bloodshed. This is a funny argument from people who criticize Lincoln for overstepping Constitutional boundaries, and then say he should have outright declared slavery illegal. It took the passage of the 13 amendment to make slavery illegal, and even then, Lincoln and others had to do a lot of wrangling to get it passed. Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that the Southern leaders would have ever even entertained this idea, since they were so paranoid in their perception of Lincoln's plans toward slavery, that they did not even allow his name to put on the voting ballots. Lincoln did not cause the Civil War, and the Union did not start the armed conflict. It is not rational or logical to put all of the blame for the carnage of the war on Lincoln, and not, at the same time, put blame on the Confederate leadership; especially since the Confederacy fired the first shots.
Many argue that Lincoln was a tyrant, based on the idea that other nations had ended slavery without civil wars, usually by paying money to the plantation owners. This is a misnomer, not only because political and social conditions of the US were unique, but because the Southern States did not even give Lincoln and his administration a chance to do anything like this, since they seceded before he even took office. Also, someone argued that Lincoln could have freed slaves in the North, in order to avoid bloodshed. This is a funny argument from people who criticize Lincoln for overstepping Constitutional boundaries, and then say he should have outright declared slavery illegal. It took the passage of the 13 amendment to make slavery illegal, and even then, Lincoln and others had to do a lot of wrangling to get it passed. Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that the Southern leaders would have ever even entertained this idea, since they were so paranoid in their perception of Lincoln's plans toward slavery, that they did not even allow his name to put on the voting ballots. Lincoln did not cause the Civil War, and the Union did not start the armed conflict. It is not rational or logical to put all of the blame for the carnage of the war on Lincoln, and not, at the same time, put blame on the Confederate leadership; especially since the Confederacy fired the first shots.
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Community / Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« on: October 29, 2013, 11:10:45 pm »
I did not claim that every, or even most, individuals who fought in the war, did so over convictions about slavery. I said that slavery, as an institution, was the cause of the war. The Southern leaders seceded from the Union because they saw Abraham Lincoln, a moderate abolitionist, as plotting to end slavery across the nation. They were so afraid of his intentions toward slavery, that the Southern states refused to even put him on the ballot. The South was largely agrarian at the time, which was in contrast to the rapidly industrializing North, and to the people in power in the Southern States, the slave labor force was an important part of their economy. As for the assertion that the Southern states did not have representation or power within the Federal government in the years leading up the secession, this is completely untrue. The Southern states elected Congressmen, Senators and representatives, on a regular basis, just like the Northern states, and had all of the same voting rights and legislative authority.
If there is any doubt as to the motivations of the Southern leaders at the time, just read South Carolina's delcaration of secession:http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp It is very clear that their main grievances were over the perceived threat to slavery. Here are a couple of choice quotes "For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution" and as to their feelings on Lincoln "He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.".
And from the Mississippi declaration: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world." Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA, further enumerated on slavery as the cause of secession, in his famous Cornerstone Speech, which I will let you Google for yourselves. This is not to demonize Confederates, because plenty of them were good people, and Robert E. Lee, was personally opposed to slavery. The individual soldiers probably did not care about slavery so much, but felt like they were righting for their states. Regardless, however, of whom was personally motivated for or against slavery, it is is clear that the Confederate leadership, at the time of secession, had slavery on their minds. It is also worth re-iterating that the Confederacy fired the first shots of the war; meaning the Union was not the aggressor side in the conflict.
If there is any doubt as to the motivations of the Southern leaders at the time, just read South Carolina's delcaration of secession:http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp It is very clear that their main grievances were over the perceived threat to slavery. Here are a couple of choice quotes "For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution" and as to their feelings on Lincoln "He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.".
And from the Mississippi declaration: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world." Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA, further enumerated on slavery as the cause of secession, in his famous Cornerstone Speech, which I will let you Google for yourselves. This is not to demonize Confederates, because plenty of them were good people, and Robert E. Lee, was personally opposed to slavery. The individual soldiers probably did not care about slavery so much, but felt like they were righting for their states. Regardless, however, of whom was personally motivated for or against slavery, it is is clear that the Confederate leadership, at the time of secession, had slavery on their minds. It is also worth re-iterating that the Confederacy fired the first shots of the war; meaning the Union was not the aggressor side in the conflict.
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Community / Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« on: October 29, 2013, 10:28:40 pm »
I picked the Union, and I have to say that I am a bit disheartened to see so many people choosing the Confederacy. Maybe some people just like an underdog? . I know it is just a video game, and I will probably play as both sides in the game, just for fun . That being said, the Confederates were not fighting for a 'just cause', or rather, the Confederacy did not form out of a struggle against oppression, because the Southern states were not being oppressed. I saw comments on here stating that the Confederates wanted to govern themselves, but they already had the same levels of state-autonomy as any of the Northern states. This is not like the American revolution, where you had the Colonists rebelling against a government that they did not have any representation in, because the Southern states of the time had full representation within the US Congress.
Slavery was the cause of the civil war, and that is not to say that everyone who fought in the war was motivated for or against slavery, but it was the Institution of slavery that created the geopolitical and economic conditions which made this conflict happen. All of the other issues about 'states rights' and what not, are byproducts of slavery. The Southern states seceded because the leaders felt that slavery was under threat from the growing abolitionist movement in the North, sparked by the Dred Scott Case, and bolstered by the increasing political and economic clout of the free-states during the Industrial revolution. The Union only attacked after the Confederacy struck first at Fort Sumter, so it was actually the Confederacy which started the Civil war. So slavery WAS the cause of the Civil War, and the Confederacy was not fighting against an oppressive government.
. I know it is just a video game, and I will probably play as both sides in the game, just for fun . That being said, the Confederates were not fighting for a 'just cause', or rather, the Confederacy did not form out of a struggle against oppression, because the Southern states were not being oppressed. I saw comments on here stating that the Confederates wanted to govern themselves, but they already had the same levels of state-autonomy as any of the Northern states. This is not like the American revolution, where you had the Colonists rebelling against a government that they did not have any representation in, because the Southern states of the time had full representation within the US Congress.Slavery was the cause of the civil war, and that is not to say that everyone who fought in the war was motivated for or against slavery, but it was the Institution of slavery that created the geopolitical and economic conditions which made this conflict happen. All of the other issues about 'states rights' and what not, are byproducts of slavery. The Southern states seceded because the leaders felt that slavery was under threat from the growing abolitionist movement in the North, sparked by the Dred Scott Case, and bolstered by the increasing political and economic clout of the free-states during the Industrial revolution. The Union only attacked after the Confederacy struck first at Fort Sumter, so it was actually the Confederacy which started the Civil war. So slavery WAS the cause of the Civil War, and the Confederacy was not fighting against an oppressive government.
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Historical Discussion / Re: Movie "Lincoln"
« on: January 03, 2013, 01:21:51 am »
I have not seen Lincoln yet, but I hope to at least get it on video. I will say though, that I think Lincoln was a great leader, and his legacy has become very mythologized, but negatively and positively. Lincoln expressed his moral opposition to the institution of slavery, many times, both in his personal writings, and in speeches, but he did not campaign for full abolition for most of his career. The reason is that, he simply did not know how to go about abolishing slavery outright, and even though he felt that slavery was evil, to him, preserving the nation was always the first priority. He campaigned heavily to stop the expansion of slavery into the North, but felt that aggressive attempts to end slavery would result in a civil war (which happened anyway). His election came at a time of a strong revival of the abolitionist movement, brought about largely by the Dredd Scott Case. This abolitionist sentiment, and the increasing economic power and population of the free states, due to the industrial revolution, are what got him elected.
The Southern states seceded because they felt that he was conspiring to end slavery, and they feared the increasing economic and political power of the free states, within the Federal government; Slave labor was crucial to the economics of the agrarian South. So yeah, I feel that Lincoln was a great leader in many ways, and while he was not a saint (who is?) He did personally oppose slavery as a moral wrong, and he did campaign to stop its expansion, and he did campaign very hard, and more than any other individual, for the passage of the 13th amendment, which abolished slavery permanently. He does deserve the moniker of 'Great Emancipator' and contrary to the notion that he was a war monger, it was the Confederacy that fired the first shots.
The Southern states seceded because they felt that he was conspiring to end slavery, and they feared the increasing economic and political power of the free states, within the Federal government; Slave labor was crucial to the economics of the agrarian South. So yeah, I feel that Lincoln was a great leader in many ways, and while he was not a saint (who is?) He did personally oppose slavery as a moral wrong, and he did campaign to stop its expansion, and he did campaign very hard, and more than any other individual, for the passage of the 13th amendment, which abolished slavery permanently. He does deserve the moniker of 'Great Emancipator' and contrary to the notion that he was a war monger, it was the Confederacy that fired the first shots.
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