Flying Squirrel Entertainment

Developer's Corner => News & Announcements => Topic started by: Olafson on December 23, 2018, 09:13:48 pm

Title: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8
Post by: Olafson on December 23, 2018, 09:13:48 pm
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Zülfikar on December 23, 2018, 09:22:46 pm
first again
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Aztir on December 23, 2018, 09:25:06 pm
A nice extra present. Thanks FSE <3
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Marks on December 23, 2018, 09:27:01 pm
Merry christmas  ;D Nice blog glad you're following suit with pushing replacing kicking 
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Blue2volf on December 23, 2018, 09:28:39 pm
https://youtu.be/KxW867OGQ2k?t=4348

*Cheering soldier sounds*
A real mellee system !
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Gretel on December 23, 2018, 09:30:04 pm
Dat backflip though, best feature
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Blue2volf on December 23, 2018, 09:34:19 pm
double post oppsie
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Olafson on December 23, 2018, 09:35:42 pm
Merry christmas  ;D Nice blog glad you're following suit with pushing replacing kicking

We had it first, and you know that. We had it in first Alpha build in 2016.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Shadow on December 23, 2018, 09:38:04 pm
Merry christmas  ;D Nice blog glad you're following suit with pushing replacing kicking

We had it first, and you know that. We had it in first Alpha build in 2016.

8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Painmace on December 23, 2018, 10:04:52 pm
Already looks much better than all other similar games out there in EA
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Painmace on December 23, 2018, 10:06:32 pm
Merry christmas  ;D Nice blog glad you're following suit with pushing replacing kicking

We had it first, and you know that. We had it in first Alpha build in 2016.
I think cRPG had it first
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Siwi on December 23, 2018, 10:37:32 pm
Fuckin dope. That pushing people down will in no way be abused lol
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Admiral on December 23, 2018, 10:45:39 pm
The trick is to switch to mellee mode while you're down, that's how you won't get pushed down anymore. Well, unless you got stabbed while being down.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Thunderstormer on December 23, 2018, 10:46:00 pm
Merry christmas  ;D Nice blog glad you're following suit with pushing replacing kicking

We had it first, and you know that. We had it in first Alpha build in 2016.
I think cRPG had it first
didn't they have some nudge thing, rather than a push.  i haven't played that mod in 4-5 years. 
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Siwi on December 23, 2018, 11:04:21 pm
The trick is to switch to mellee mode while you're down, that's how you won't get pushed down anymore. Well, unless you got stabbed while being down.
Oh I didn’t even catch that there was a melee/shooting difference, I skimmed
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Admiral on December 23, 2018, 11:08:30 pm
The trick is to switch to mellee mode while you're down, that's how you won't get pushed down anymore. Well, unless you got stabbed while being down.
Oh I didn’t even catch that there was a melee/shooting difference, I skimmed

There is, and it's quite important. The first time we tested it and before I figured I could switch mid-action I just got pushed down to death at the end  ^^
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: MadWolf on December 23, 2018, 11:47:49 pm
Nice blog and I like the Melee system!
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Marks on December 23, 2018, 11:48:45 pm
Merry christmas  ;D Nice blog glad you're following suit with pushing replacing kicking

We had it first, and you know that. We had it in first Alpha build in 2016.

I dont really remember anything
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Olafson on December 24, 2018, 12:45:10 am
Its the 3rd ark, it has destroyed your brain.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Marks on December 24, 2018, 01:15:37 am
Its the 3rd ark, it has destroyed your brain.

*HISSSSSSSSSSSSSS*
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on December 24, 2018, 10:14:25 am
Very happy to see BCOF is sticking to its roots with the melee system which is what NW so fun and competitive. I like the push animation as well, it's a nice variation of the kick although I wonder why we can't have both?

Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Syncmaster667 on December 24, 2018, 11:38:10 am
Loving the look of the new melee stuff, should help people like me who are still shit at melee after 5 years of NW xD
Nice little snow gif at the bottom aswell, guessing yous have got more weather types then rather than just sunny days :D

Just a quick question as ive noticed some devs post sometimes thought my years of seeing the FSE forums, how many do you currently have on your team?

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: baz44331 on December 24, 2018, 03:43:40 pm
cant wait guys. look great!
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: lucsa27 on December 24, 2018, 05:30:47 pm
This looks damn good!
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Savolainen5 on December 24, 2018, 07:26:26 pm
Cool stuff! Have a nice holiday!
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Knightmare on December 24, 2018, 08:40:47 pm
Quote
We have programmed a chambering system just like the one in Napoleonic Wars. Obviously timings are currently slightly different so players used to Napoleonic Wars will have to get used to the new timings. Chambers work just like you would expect, they allow the defending player to counter the attackers strike with a counter swing of the same attack direction.
yea no
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 24, 2018, 09:08:28 pm
If chambering is in this game then I don't think I will buy it.

Not because I was bad and didn't like it, because I think its a shit mechanic that produced alot of toxicity and dependance by alot of players and allowed those who have low ping to essentially be gods among men compared to the latter, will this not also alienate new players compared to NW veterans? Why not just base the combat on Teamwork which will appeal more to your wider target audience?

What reasons are there really to keep it here rather than to appeal to a small, select group?

IMO do it the other way around, if the melee feels stale and there are no other ideas, then add it. Have time for people to test it. Openly. Not just your alpha testers who paid some extra money.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Thunderstormer on December 24, 2018, 10:32:14 pm
Loving the look of the new melee stuff, should help people like me who are still shit at melee after 5 years of NW xD
Nice little snow gif at the bottom aswell, guessing yous have got more weather types then rather than just sunny days :D

Just a quick question as ive noticed some devs post sometimes thought my years of seeing the FSE forums, how many do you currently have on your team?

Keep up the good work!
With the addition of a new programmer, there are 5 devs.(i dont think the new guy has an account here.)   there are a fair amount of people helping with things like making maps, or other stuff as well. 
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Olafson on December 24, 2018, 11:13:45 pm
If chambering is in this game then I don't think I will buy it.

Not because I was bad and didn't like it, because I think its a shit mechanic that produced alot of toxicity and dependance by alot of players and allowed those who have low ping to essentially be gods among men compared to the latter, will this not also alienate new players compared to NW veterans? Why not just base the combat on Teamwork which will appeal more to your wider target audience?

What reasons are there really to keep it here rather than to appeal to a small, select group?

IMO do it the other way around, if the melee feels stale and there are no other ideas, then add it. Have time for people to test it. Openly. Not just your alpha testers who paid some extra money.

In any situation you will punish players with bad ping. That is just the way it works. Unless you make a turn based game, player with higher ping will always be handicapped. But please remember, that this is also not the Warband engine. We have a very different netcode. Currently high ping is actually not as much of a problem as it was in Warband.

Chambering is a mechanic that is difficult to master and only experienced players will be able to perform it on a regular basis. It is a feature that will require experience and skill. As such, players that regularly play the game will be rewarded for that with the ability to perform chambers.

IF, it turns out that it will not be fun or break gameplay we will remove it. But there is no reason for us to think that it will. This will be seen in the testing phase of the game, which is also when we will be making a lot of changes to melee. As stated in the blog, we will continue working on melee even after release, so that we can bring it to the most balanced and stable state possible.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Knightmare on December 25, 2018, 01:48:36 am
IF, it turns out that it will not be fun or break gameplay we will remove it.
hello this is player speaking from closed alpha, chambering is broken and needs to be removed
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 25, 2018, 02:49:37 am
will this not also alienate new players compared to veterans?
Chambering is a mechanic that is difficult to master and only experienced players will be able to perform it on a regular basis. It is a feature that will require experience and skill. As such, players that regularly play the game will be rewarded for that with the ability to perform chambers.
So essentially you are?

Skill and Experience should be a reward of its own, not seal clubbing new players.

Lets use World of Tanks as an example. You get your first Tier 4 tank, you get matched up against lots of experienced players driving around in their Tier 6 tanks with big derp guns that 1 shot you. Without anything you can do about it. That game has been suffering upwards of 10% of player loss a year with even less people signing up and playing past tier 6 which is actually when the game gets fun.

BCoF, New player steps in, attacks someone, gets chambered instantly and dies not understanding why he couldn't block etc. In NW us reg leaders teach our members for hours how to chamber enough to counter the regiments we face (competitively speaking), thats alot of time we have to spend just because of a flawed system but thats because there is no casual community. Do you not want one in BCoF?
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Olafson on December 25, 2018, 02:59:57 am
As I said, if it turns out to be a silly feature we will remove it. But as it stands right now, I see no problem with making a more "advanced" melee system.

Yes, you could only have blocking and attacking. But then more experienced players are still going to be better at the game. It won't change a thing. It will just remove a feature from the game. And that makes no sense. Removing features from a game shouldn't happen unless there is a real reason for it.

With your logic, would you also want to remove reduced aiming sway/shake when bayonets aren't fixed? Or a Fuse lenght timer for artillery? Or a realistic bullet system with bullet drop and ricochets? All of this are features that only experienced players will really profit from.

Of course you can make a game extremely casual, but whats the point. You want players to return back to the game and try to get better. You want to offer stuff that requires time to master. What you want is a system that is easy to get into, but difficult to master. That will make players play the game because they want to get better. Casuals can still play the game without further knowledge of these features, as they won't be gamebreaking or off putting. You don't have to master them to play the game. It is simply offering additional depth to the game.

The entire melee system of blocking and attacking with 4 swing directions is already complicated in itself. There are almost no games that have it. Do you want to remove that to appeal to casual players only? You would end up with a game that has no unique features and is boring to play for more than 2 minutes. You would know about all of the features of the game after playing one round. There would be nothing new to learn and discover. As a player, there would be nothing to specialize in.
In BCoF there will be some people that are extremely good at shooting, others that are extremely good in melee and others that are extremely good at artillery. Do you want to get rid of that by making the game so simple and casual that there is no point in specializing? That there is no point in spending additional time in the game to get better than others?


"All the best games are easy to learn and difficult to master."
If everything is easy to learn and there is nothing to master, the game is just boring. People won't return back to it.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 25, 2018, 03:42:44 am
What actually are you talking about? You have twisted my point then gone on a rant whilst avoiding the topic I began.

At no point did I say "Make the game easier just so its completely casual", what I actually said was "Don't implement BS melee features that will seal club new players".

Try to keep in mind that if a player comes in, doesn't have a good experience and just gets seal clubbed, they will refund the game not think "Oh I am going to devote 20 hours next week just learning melee mechanics just so I can play the game". Try to remember those players are going to be heavily outnumbered by NW players are they not? I have never once seen any public announcement or Demo from this game. So who will buy it and play it because 2/3 of the NW players who you announced this to have actually entered adulthood now.

I'm all for making melee more advanced/adding a parry system, but you specifically used the word CHAMBERING. So we are going off what it looks like in NW. I remember being taught to chamber back in 2011 when I was a Cadet in the 84e, I remember jumping on 84e siege and literally racking up hundreds of kills just because nobody understood how to counter a chamber, and this stayed the same until 2014 when the competitive scene really came into full swing. If its a differen't system do please enlighten me.

Anyways, this is my opinion and whether or not you take it in is up to you. My advice is protecting the players will protect the growth of your game not the other way around.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: HaroldW on December 25, 2018, 04:53:02 am
I've been playing public servers for the past four years, so believe me when I say chambering is in no way as common, or even viable, as you are making it out to be. Chambering is extremely situational and relies upon your opponent being very predictable. Hell in most cases, ping + rotation during combat make chambering highly impractical and nigh impossible.

I suggest you turn your attention towards spintards and feint spammers - a far more unrealistic and annoying problem.


Update: I just went on deathmatch and successfully chambered around 85.7% of the players. For a brief, fleeting moment I forgot just how moronic and docile the average NW player is.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 25, 2018, 05:36:54 am
Yup
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Zülfikar on December 25, 2018, 07:37:37 am
chriseh ur retarded so stfu pls
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Marks on December 25, 2018, 08:12:39 am
Gamers rise
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Thunderstormer on December 25, 2018, 11:28:41 am
I don't really get why you are focused on chambering of all things when it comes to melee, and calling it seal clubbing.  Most of the casuals and new players can barely block(if they even tried) and were slaughtered regardless, after you blocked their attack then stabbed them.  Most didn't even bother to watch their back, and were backstabbed without even knowing enemies were there.  Add on to the fact that many of the "experienced" players would abuse animations and have a seizure while they were feinting making it impossible for the casual to know what the attack was.  Chambering wasn't even all that effective, as you had to be close enough to do it, and not mess up while doing it.  The higher the ping, the more challenging it is.  Against most players, you were just better off blocking then attacking.  If they knew how to block, then you started throwing in chambers, more feints, holds, spams, and kicks. 

Heck, even most of the experienced players can't block a sword.  I am always amazed over the years, at least on NA, how many of the "best" meleers would melt like butter the moment they fought a sword.  If you want to know what real seal clubbing is in NW, play cav during a steam sale.  i guess most regs never bothered to try fighting people with swords to get better at it.  same with cav.    Probably one reason why events keep throwing in stupid rules in to try to curtail cav. 

Anyways, as olaf said.  We will be doing a lot of testing on melee in our builds, and tests with others as the game gets closer to release.  Its going to be something we spend a lot of time working on.  We will do what we can to make it fun for all players.     Something to keep in mind too is that shooting will be deadlier in BCoF.  The weapons are more accurate and deadlier in general.  So just ramboing around meleeing everyone wont be as easy, unless you are on a part of a map that is more conducive to getting in close to the enemy.(or weather making shooting accurately harder)  Shooting and melee are still being worked on, and maps are still being made/worked on.   All of which will effect how the game plays. 
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Syncmaster667 on December 25, 2018, 01:27:39 pm
Loving the look of the new melee stuff, should help people like me who are still shit at melee after 5 years of NW xD
Nice little snow gif at the bottom aswell, guessing yous have got more weather types then rather than just sunny days :D

Just a quick question as ive noticed some devs post sometimes thought my years of seeing the FSE forums, how many do you currently have on your team?

Keep up the good work!
With the addition of a new programmer, there are 5 devs.(i dont think the new guy has an account here.)   there are a fair amount of people helping with things like making maps, or other stuff as well.

Oh thats cool, so i guess yous tell them what to make ect ye? So like a map maker makes a LB style map for yous but someone else maybe makes a new object with texture for that map.
Will we possibly get a blog on either maps or gamemodes that might be available at a public launch excluding your private alpha testers.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Thunderstormer on December 26, 2018, 10:45:12 am
Loving the look of the new melee stuff, should help people like me who are still shit at melee after 5 years of NW xD
Nice little snow gif at the bottom aswell, guessing yous have got more weather types then rather than just sunny days :D

Just a quick question as ive noticed some devs post sometimes thought my years of seeing the FSE forums, how many do you currently have on your team?

Keep up the good work!
With the addition of a new programmer, there are 5 devs.(i dont think the new guy has an account here.)   there are a fair amount of people helping with things like making maps, or other stuff as well.

Oh thats cool, so i guess yous tell them what to make ect ye? So like a map maker makes a LB style map for yous but someone else maybe makes a new object with texture for that map.
Will we possibly get a blog on either maps or gamemodes that might be available at a public launch excluding your private alpha testers.
not necessarily.  we discuss at our meetings what we want to do next, and what will be needed to make it done.  my job is just to figure out what to do and make it work, after we discuss what we want.  after i get it working, i tell them how to make it work on the map.  then its on to testing, refinement, bug fixing, and possibly rework if its something we want to do differently. 

as for maps and gamemodes, i would assume when we have plenty of maps done to fill a blog, we will show them off, highlighting certain parts of the map.   As for game modes, we have several of them done.  They will need to be tested for both bugs and possibly tweaks to the "rules" for the game modes to make them more enjoyable.  Not to mention map balance and any bugs that may be on a specific map.    There is only so much we can test as devs, so much of this will be tested in the more public versions of the game. 

and of course there is UI that will need to be worked on for them.   
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Steinmann on December 26, 2018, 05:56:55 pm
Looks better then holdfast atleast
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Miller786 on December 27, 2018, 12:09:38 am
I personally don't understand the big deal about chambering, it's risky and requires pretty good timing to pull off.
New players will be clubbed even without chambering by experienced players that know how to melee, that's just the way it is. Also in my opinion chambering adds a layer of depth to melee combat that would otherwise be boring, it is useful to break the attack/block stalemate that always happens between two experienced players, the ability to chamber could be the factor that determines the better one and will prevent a fight from lasting 20 minutes.
I don't see how this feature is any different from learning the normal melee system...
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Sleek on December 27, 2018, 01:21:17 am
I personally don't understand the big deal about chambering, it's risky and requires pretty good timing to pull off.
New players will be clubbed even without chambering by experienced players that know how to melee, that's just the way it is. Also in my opinion chambering adds a layer of depth to melee combat that would otherwise be boring, it is useful to break the attack/block stalemate that always happens between two experienced players, the ability to chamber could be the factor that determines the better one and will prevent a fight from lasting 20 minutes.
I don't see how this feature is any different from learning the normal melee system...

chambering is literally braindead and not risky if you know how to play the game
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Steinmann on December 27, 2018, 02:02:01 am
I personally don't understand the big deal about chambering, it's risky and requires pretty good timing to pull off.
New players will be clubbed even without chambering by experienced players that know how to melee, that's just the way it is. Also in my opinion chambering adds a layer of depth to melee combat that would otherwise be boring, it is useful to break the attack/block stalemate that always happens between two experienced players, the ability to chamber could be the factor that determines the better one and will prevent a fight from lasting 20 minutes.
I don't see how this feature is any different from learning the normal melee system...

chambering is literally braindead and not risky if you know how to play the game
reeee I NEVER LEARNED HOW TO CHAMBER I WANT THIS REMOVED NOW!
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Vincenzo on December 27, 2018, 09:49:57 am
I programmed the melee and chamber system in BCoF so maybe i have some insight.
First of all it will not be EXACTLY like in NW/Warband, diffirences of timings will exist as well as animations.
Stuns naturally are difirent too.

All of this is still under development/testing as such once we open it up for public alpha you guys can come in, both melee pro as melee hater. and give your opinion on the system, we have a very dynamic one, and we can change any timing, any variable and change any speed of animation at any stage quite easily so we can ensure we get melee RIGHT.

For me personally it is one of the most important parts of NW/Warband and I will make sure that it is good.

I understand the argument about experienced players vs new ones, but you will always have that with a game like this. that is something a tutorial can help in a bit, but people don't play that anyway, the best thing is they jump on some public siege server or something and start shooting away, and learn melee slowely.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 27, 2018, 01:56:51 pm
Yeah like I was saying before, its not so much the implementation of it, its more HOW its implemented. We will see when the time comes.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Vincenzo on December 27, 2018, 02:10:53 pm
I saw you mentioning ping as being a big factor in NW, I can assure you in bcof things are programmed very differently and ping has a much lower impact on the experience.

Things are being processed and send much faster than in the warband engine and things will have much lower delays.

This will result in a much lower impact that high ping has on the gaming experience. and also extreme low ping will have no advantage.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 27, 2018, 02:19:53 pm
Yeah that all sounds good to me, obviously when the word "Chambering" gets thrown around NW players will immediately think of the NW model of chambering so.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Miller786 on December 27, 2018, 02:32:54 pm
I personally don't understand the big deal about chambering, it's risky and requires pretty good timing to pull off.
New players will be clubbed even without chambering by experienced players that know how to melee, that's just the way it is. Also in my opinion chambering adds a layer of depth to melee combat that would otherwise be boring, it is useful to break the attack/block stalemate that always happens between two experienced players, the ability to chamber could be the factor that determines the better one and will prevent a fight from lasting 20 minutes.
I don't see how this feature is any different from learning the normal melee system...

chambering is literally braindead and not risky if you know how to play the game
Oh yea, so that's the reason that every "experienced player" only chambers because other attacks are not even worth it since chambering is so easy, so good and so OP. Yea right, gotcha.
Oh and by the way, if it's so easy im sure it won't be a problem for new players to learn it and be successful with it as well.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 27, 2018, 02:44:34 pm
Calm it down there budskie.

Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Waste-Too-Cool on December 27, 2018, 02:49:07 pm
I personally don't understand the big deal about chambering, it's risky and requires pretty good timing to pull off.
New players will be clubbed even without chambering by experienced players that know how to melee, that's just the way it is. Also in my opinion chambering adds a layer of depth to melee combat that would otherwise be boring, it is useful to break the attack/block stalemate that always happens between two experienced players, the ability to chamber could be the factor that determines the better one and will prevent a fight from lasting 20 minutes.
I don't see how this feature is any different from learning the normal melee system...

chambering is literally braindead and not risky if you know how to play the game
Oh yea, so that's the reason that every "experienced player" only chambers because other attacks are not even worth it since chambering is so easy, so good and so OP. Yea right, gotcha.
Oh and by the way, if it's so easy im sure it won't be a problem for new players to learn it and be successful with it as well.
I mean chambering is a pretty simple concept. Once you explain to someone how it works and they successfully do it a couple times you don't even have to think about it.

Also every "experienced player" doesn't only chamber? Chambers can be good yeah but they're easily counterable.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 27, 2018, 02:59:16 pm
As with any game its just a case of trying to make it so that its not just a brain dead system. Like it currently is, but as there is no tutorials etc. for it (other than a good little search on Youtube) players don't understand what it is until they join a regiment and they learn it.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Knightmare on December 27, 2018, 03:21:56 pm
As with any game its just a case of trying to make it so that its not just a brain dead system. Like it currently is, but as there is no tutorials etc. for it (other than a good little search on Youtube) players don't understand what it is until they join a regiment and they learn it.
wtf u never taught me how to chamber??
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 27, 2018, 03:30:39 pm
As with any game its just a case of trying to make it so that its not just a brain dead system. Like it currently is, but as there is no tutorials etc. for it (other than a good little search on Youtube) players don't understand what it is until they join a regiment and they learn it.
wtf u never taught me how to chamber??
Thats because you didn't pay the fee wtf
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Sleek on December 27, 2018, 03:38:57 pm
I personally don't understand the big deal about chambering, it's risky and requires pretty good timing to pull off.
New players will be clubbed even without chambering by experienced players that know how to melee, that's just the way it is. Also in my opinion chambering adds a layer of depth to melee combat that would otherwise be boring, it is useful to break the attack/block stalemate that always happens between two experienced players, the ability to chamber could be the factor that determines the better one and will prevent a fight from lasting 20 minutes.
I don't see how this feature is any different from learning the normal melee system...

chambering is literally braindead and not risky if you know how to play the game
Oh yea, so that's the reason that every "experienced player" only chambers because other attacks are not even worth it since chambering is so easy, so good and so OP. Yea right, gotcha.
Oh and by the way, if it's so easy im sure it won't be a problem for new players to learn it and be successful with it as well.

Experienced players only chamber? Showing you’re not an experienced player tbh
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Olafson on December 27, 2018, 04:55:06 pm
We are probably the worst meleers in history. Do you know how many tries it took us to get that footage of the chamber ? :P
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Shadow on December 27, 2018, 05:21:04 pm
We are probably the worst meleers in history. Do you know how many tries it took us to get that footage of the chamber ? :P

Haha
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Miller786 on December 27, 2018, 05:37:35 pm
Calm it down there budskie.
You can't tell me what do, you're not my real dad!
Also im not your budskie, guy.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Windflower on December 27, 2018, 05:54:29 pm
We are probably the worst meleers in history. Do you know how many tries it took us to get that footage of the chamber ? :P
zomg ft7 me right now FSE devs, loser leaves town

(https://i.imgur.com/gj7Ea2V.gif)
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on December 27, 2018, 06:02:28 pm
Does this mean we can challenge the almighty sperg lords of FSE for the deed to the FSE forums?

Where do I sign up?
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: HaroldW on December 27, 2018, 06:33:45 pm
Being absolutely terrible at the game you’re developing = true video game dev
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Vincenzo on December 27, 2018, 06:44:04 pm
typical happens when i'm not there to record the blog content ;D
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Olafson on December 27, 2018, 07:14:54 pm
HAH!
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Aztir on December 27, 2018, 07:21:21 pm
1v1 me Vince.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on December 27, 2018, 07:59:35 pm
Playing against Vince in any game is just no fun.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Rutger Müller on December 27, 2018, 09:46:24 pm
hopping into the alpha like
(https://www.fsegames.eu/images/vaulting2.gif)
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Rutger Müller on December 27, 2018, 09:51:07 pm
We are probably the worst meleers in history. Do you know how many tries it took us to get that footage of the chamber ? :P
zomg ft7 me right now FSE devs, loser leaves town

(https://i.imgur.com/gj7Ea2V.gif)
>zomg
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.com%2Fr%2Fmem.gif&hash=db95bc0770e684aeea39b61609098139)
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Vincenzo on December 27, 2018, 10:27:59 pm
Playing against Vince in any game is just no fun.
Remember that time you asked me to join you in world of war planes which you had countless hours invested into, and i never played before and absolutely dominated you?   :-*


I'm quite a good melee player in NW anyway, you can ask one of the old guys.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Steinmann on December 27, 2018, 11:43:26 pm
Being absolutely terrible at the game you’re developing = true video game dev
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on December 28, 2018, 01:20:28 am
Playing against Vince in any game is just no fun.
Remember that time you asked me to join you in world of war planes which you had countless hours invested into, and i never played before and absolutely dominated you?   :-*


That is exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote that. I'm still salty, damn it. Fucking joysticks.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: 72ndPA on January 01, 2019, 12:14:52 pm
I wonder what the next update will be :) ;D
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Charles Caldwell on January 05, 2019, 04:18:42 pm
From what I understand, actual Melee was very rare in the ACW. How do you stop it becoming the mainstream for less skillful teams and thus turning what should be a Musketry game into a hand to hand combat game?
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Noorwegian on January 05, 2019, 06:08:47 pm
From what I understand, actual Melee was very rare in the ACW. How do you stop it becoming the mainstream for less skillful teams and thus turning what should be a Musketry game into a hand to hand combat game?

Surely, melee combat will be a large portion of this game, and for many, the reason they will enjoy playing it for a longer time. The developers are not looking to force any specific style of gameplay onto people, and would rather allow the players to choose how they would like to play the game themselves instead.

The 'competitive' side of regiments, similar like in NW, will definitely be most interested in the melee aspect of the game. However, the game should also have another side of both regiments and players, who enjoy roleplaying and playing the game more realistically, who will undoubtedly have a bigger focus on musketry. While I don't speak for the devs, I think I can safely say that the developers aren't going to favour melee over shooting or shooting over melee, but rather develop two well-made mechanics of the game that will provide the players with challenging and interesting gameplay. In the end, both event organizers and server hosts will have the availability to set forth the kind of rules they'd like to on their server/event, letting everyone get the kind of gameplay that they would like to play. Then it will be up to you as a player to decide which regiments you would like to play with, and what servers/events you would like to play in. :)
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Vincenzo on January 05, 2019, 07:19:03 pm
Yes, Noorwegian is right, we make good mechanics for gameplay reasons, something that is fun to play for both groups, and events can choose what to do with that.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Furrnox on January 05, 2019, 08:53:03 pm
(https://www.fsegames.eu/images/vaulting2.gif)

Most realistic way to climb a window.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Charles Caldwell on January 05, 2019, 11:57:32 pm
My experience of competitive play within NW was an overly unrealistic and restrictive one. If you are hoping to encourage those rules, and to only cater for the current NW Community in competitive play then you'll do your game a disservice.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: DaMonkey on January 06, 2019, 12:51:41 am
From what I understand, actual Melee was very rare in the ACW. How do you stop it becoming the mainstream for less skillful teams and thus turning what should be a Musketry game into a hand to hand combat game?

Hopefully not by doing something silly and making one mechanic worse (let's say perhaps requiring two stabs to kill people for some reason) instead of making the other mechanic better (improving gunplay / opening engagement distances).
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Charles Caldwell on January 06, 2019, 12:13:00 pm
Hopefully not by doing something silly and making one mechanic worse (let's say perhaps requiring two stabs to kill people for some reason) instead of making the other mechanic better (improving gunplay / opening engagement distances).

Perhaps you think I'm some sort of WoRs fanboy, who'll jump to its defence.... I actually agree with you, the Melee in WoRs is a joke. I'm also surprised by the comment from FSE that they think WoRs is ultra realistic?!? Whats realistic about not being able to crouch and move? Whats realistic about having to reload again if the reload was interrupted? Whats realistic about not being able to gain more ammo? The list goes on.....

As I say I'm looking forward to seeing how both games approach the genre and how they deal with the issues both games face.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: John Price on January 06, 2019, 12:24:51 pm
Whats realistic about not being able to gain more ammo? The list goes on.....
Js that was quite common for that age of fighting.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Charles Caldwell on January 06, 2019, 12:35:05 pm
Whats realistic about not being able to gain more ammo? The list goes on.....
Js that was quite common for that age of fighting.

Not true, it was quite common to take it off the dead or wounded!
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Noorwegian on January 06, 2019, 01:46:58 pm
My experience of competitive play within NW was an overly unrealistic and restrictive one. If you are hoping to encourage those rules, and to only cater for the current NW Community in competitive play then you'll do your game a disservice.

What did you not like about competitive play in NW? What did you find restrictive? How would you like to see competitive play in BCoF?

Hopefully not by doing something silly and making one mechanic worse (let's say perhaps requiring two stabs to kill people for some reason) instead of making the other mechanic better (improving gunplay / opening engagement distances).
Perhaps you think I'm some sort of WoRs fanboy, who'll jump to its defence.... I actually agree with you, the Melee in WoRs is a joke. I'm also surprised by the comment from FSE that they think WoRs is ultra realistic?!? Whats realistic about not being able to crouch and move? Whats realistic about having to reload again if the reload was interrupted? Whats realistic about not being able to gain more ammo? The list goes on.....

From what I understand, WoR is trying to be a realistic game, and more of a re-enactment simulator than a game, really. The gameplay in WoR is really restrictive, as they try to force everyone to work together and play in this one 'realistic', roleplay-style vision that they have for their game. FSE does not have this vision for BCoF, and like Vincenzo commented earlier, FSE is making the mechanics of the game for gameplay reasons, so that the game is fun to play, and the players themselves choose how to play it.

Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on January 06, 2019, 01:55:45 pm
Quote
WoR is trying to be a realistic game, and more of a re-enactment simulator than a game, really.

That's the thing though. WoR is not a civil war simulator, it's a re-enactor simulator. Including all the silly mistakes and assumptions a lot of re-enactors make. Their loading animation takes the freaking cake though. They made a loading animation that is not only entirely inaccurate, but it's also more difficult to do then just following the actual drillbook.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Dazzer on January 06, 2019, 03:55:41 pm
Why is it inaccurate?
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: TheBoberton on January 06, 2019, 06:26:01 pm
Assuming you're asking about the reload animation, rather than the game in general, it's in the handling of the ramrod. When reversing the ramrod in accordance with the drill manuals (Literally every drill manual, dating back to at least the French Napoleonic drill), as well as in accordance with common sense, you reverse the ramrod by simply turning the hand that withdrew it from the gun. In War of Rights, you do so by transferring the ramrod from your right to your left hand, then back.

Simply put, they added more steps into the process, and if you attempted to reload the way the game portrays in real life under fire, you would drop your ramrod. Multiple times.

They and their community then attempted to defend the choice by stating that troops would disregard the drill manual and willingly introduce complexity into their manual of arms.
It might have been amusing if it hadn't been so Goddamn frustrating. Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory. (https://www.warofrightsforum.com/showthread.php?2807-Reload-Animation-is-wrong)
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: TrustyJam on January 06, 2019, 06:47:28 pm
Assuming you're asking about the reload animation, rather than the game in general, it's in the handling of the ramrod. When reversing the ramrod in accordance with the drill manuals (Literally every drill manual, dating back to at least the French Napoleonic drill), as well as in accordance with common sense, you reverse the ramrod by simply turning the hand that withdrew it from the gun. In War of Rights, you do so by transferring the ramrod from your right to your left hand, then back.

Simply put, they added more steps into the process, and if you attempted to reload the way the game portrays in real life under fire, you would drop your ramrod. Multiple times.

They and their community then attempted to defend the choice by stating that troops would disregard the drill manual and willingly introduce complexity into their manual of arms.
It might have been amusing if it hadn't been so Goddamn frustrating. Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory. (https://www.warofrightsforum.com/showthread.php?2807-Reload-Animation-is-wrong)

Here's my reply from the thread you posted:

We've forwarded this topic to our Historical Advisor. Thank you for the report. We'll look into it in the future but at the moment we have bigger fish to fry animation wise.

- Trusty

Hardly trying to defend anything I'd say.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: TheBoberton on January 06, 2019, 07:13:33 pm
You were indeed not defending it; my inclusion of the entire development team in that condemnation was poorly considered.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on January 06, 2019, 07:26:01 pm
We actually tried it out with our 1777 Charlevilles. It's not just adding more steps, it's making the reload so much more difficult. You're giving the ramrod with your free hand to the hand holding the gun. Now, suppose I were to do this while still holding the musket between thumb and finger, I would have to apparantly hold the ramrod with my middle finger, ringfinger or pinky. You wil most likely drop the ramrod right here. Stuffing it between the index finger and musket also obviously doesn't work.

They literally could have realized this is a retarded reloading animation by holding a gun and trying it out.

Two more issues with the reloading animation.

One, the way the player rams down is just ridicious. He appears to apply absolutely no force, holding the ramrod between thumb and index finger and just wiggling a bit. That's just not how it works. Drill manuals usually tell you to forcefully ram down the charge with one or two moves. In the French Napoleonic manual for example, you hold the ramrod in your hand with all fingers over it and the thumb firmly on top to apply as much force as possible.

Two, the stupid pinky finger at the end. Try pushing down a ramrod with just a pinky. It won't work. You have to use the whole hand, it's just that the pinky finger is the finger that actually touches the ramrod. A wrong interpretation of the drill manual. A re-enactorism, with other words.

Assuming you're asking about the reload animation, rather than the game in general, it's in the handling of the ramrod. When reversing the ramrod in accordance with the drill manuals (Literally every drill manual, dating back to at least the French Napoleonic drill), as well as in accordance with common sense, you reverse the ramrod by simply turning the hand that withdrew it from the gun. In War of Rights, you do so by transferring the ramrod from your right to your left hand, then back.

Simply put, they added more steps into the process, and if you attempted to reload the way the game portrays in real life under fire, you would drop your ramrod. Multiple times.

They and their community then attempted to defend the choice by stating that troops would disregard the drill manual and willingly introduce complexity into their manual of arms.
It might have been amusing if it hadn't been so Goddamn frustrating. Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory. (https://www.warofrightsforum.com/showthread.php?2807-Reload-Animation-is-wrong)

Here's my reply from the thread you posted:

We've forwarded this topic to our Historical Advisor. Thank you for the report. We'll look into it in the future but at the moment we have bigger fish to fry animation wise.

- Trusty

Hardly trying to defend anything I'd say.

Someone calls out WoR for one of their inaccuracies and TrustyJam appears within a few hours. I don't know what you're paying your informants, but pay them more.

Quote
Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory.

Uh, I actually did read it and I regret doing so. And then people claim the FSE community is toxic.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: TrustyJam on January 06, 2019, 07:32:57 pm
Thank you for your feedback.

My answer remains the same as it was when the thread was created. We will look into it in the future but it is not a priority to us at the moment.

Oh please. I've been a donator of this game for longer than I can remember.

- Trusty

We actually tried it out with our 1777 Charlevilles. It's not just adding more steps, it's making the reload so much more difficult. You're giving the ramrod with your free hand to the hand holding the gun. Now, suppose I were to do this while still holding the musket between thumb and finger, I would have to apparantly hold the ramrod with my middle finger, ringfinger or pinky. You wil most likely drop the ramrod right here. Stuffing it between the index finger and musket also obviously doesn't work.

They literally could have realized this is a retarded reloading animation by holding a gun and trying it out.

Two more issues with the reloading animation.

One, the way the player rams down is just ridicious. He appears to apply absolutely no force, holding the ramrod between thumb and index finger and just wiggling a bit. That's just not how it works. Drill manuals usually tell you to forcefully ram down the charge with one or two moves. In the French Napoleonic manual for example, you hold the ramrod in your hand with all fingers over it and the thumb firmly on top to apply as much force as possible.

Two, the stupid pinky finger at the end. Try pushing down a ramrod with just a pinky. It won't work. You have to use the whole hand, it's just that the pinky finger is the finger that actually touches the ramrod. A wrong interpretation of the drill manual. A re-enactorism, with other words.

Assuming you're asking about the reload animation, rather than the game in general, it's in the handling of the ramrod. When reversing the ramrod in accordance with the drill manuals (Literally every drill manual, dating back to at least the French Napoleonic drill), as well as in accordance with common sense, you reverse the ramrod by simply turning the hand that withdrew it from the gun. In War of Rights, you do so by transferring the ramrod from your right to your left hand, then back.

Simply put, they added more steps into the process, and if you attempted to reload the way the game portrays in real life under fire, you would drop your ramrod. Multiple times.

They and their community then attempted to defend the choice by stating that troops would disregard the drill manual and willingly introduce complexity into their manual of arms.
It might have been amusing if it hadn't been so Goddamn frustrating. Be forewarned, the thread here has the usual War of Rights community condescension in all its glory. (https://www.warofrightsforum.com/showthread.php?2807-Reload-Animation-is-wrong)

Here's my reply from the thread you posted:

We've forwarded this topic to our Historical Advisor. Thank you for the report. We'll look into it in the future but at the moment we have bigger fish to fry animation wise.

- Trusty

Hardly trying to defend anything I'd say.

Someone calls out WoR for one of their inaccuracies and TrustyJam appears within a few hours. I don't know what you're paying your informants, but pay them more.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on January 06, 2019, 07:36:53 pm
I was not replying to you, just putting emphasis on the fact it's retarded and anyone with a gun should be able to tell you that. You might not defend it, but other WoR developers do, and so do so many WoR players. Mind you, you don't even admit it's retarded and wrong, just 'that you will look into it'. Tell me, TrustyJam, do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: TrustyJam on January 06, 2019, 07:41:15 pm
I was not replying to you, just putting emphasis on the fact it's retarded and anyone with a gun should be able to tell you that. You might not defend it, but other WoR developers do, and so do so many WoR players. Mind you, you don't even admit it's retarded and wrong, just 'that you will look into it'. Tell me, TrustyJam, do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?

Why are you so aggressive in the manner which you conduct yourself?

If you wish for me to provide you with any information please ask me properly without insulting myself and my dev team.

- Trusty
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Charles Caldwell on January 06, 2019, 07:48:18 pm
My experience of competitive play within NW was an overly unrealistic and restrictive one. If you are hoping to encourage those rules, and to only cater for the current NW Community in competitive play then you'll do your game a disservice.

What did you not like about competitive play in NW? What did you find restrictive? How would you like to see competitive play in BCoF?


It was along time ago so correct me if Im wrong. Where do I begin.... Lets start at the top, the inability to target Officers. I mean really, its the first natural choice of target surely! Cut off the head and the body fails.

Some rules like Line only, no Skirmishers, Light, Flag bearers or Musicians. Lets get rid of Trees, Hills and cover completely and fight in a perfectly flat Arena shall we!!!!!

Whats with the strict rule on Skirmish spacing (if even allowed in game). Skirmishers surely should take advantage of terrain and cover, and not be concerned by the 3-4 spaces between them and their fellow skirmisher.

Lets move on to gaps in the line and firing rule, it happened as the chaos of battle and as soldiers drop.... why penalise a regiment in the heat of battle for some gaps in the line?

Movement in Line only!?!?!?! Why????

I mean you build a game, and then start saying we dont want to build in restrictions. No need, the player based restrictions are worse and hamstring the game completely! They put me off taking NW or HF seriously. If you are building a game for the old NW crowd and their competitions then be honest and tell us, otherwise give us some game built options to help promote the game we wish to play (Realism/Hardcore/Arcade).


How would you like to see competitive play in BCoF?


For a start lose the competition reference, surely every game is a competition between sides. A winner, loser or draw! By pushing the Competition label, you are cheapening the experience. Making a two tier game, the one plebs play and then the self called 'Pros!' Cant they play together with game applied rules and experience the game together?

The key to any type of musketry game is maintaining the Lines, Regiments and Cohesion. Penalise Lone wolves or kill count players and push TEAM play, whether that be bonuses to players who plays as a unit with extra tickets, points or quicker spawns for collective play. Make going alone cost the side dearly, make not being a teamplayer a huge disadvantage to the team and to the player as well. Killed out of Line - extra time to spawn, extra points lost, unless of course you are a Skirmishers (unique rules apply).

Make Team objectives the priority over Kill reports or personal achievements.... I'd ban personal kill counts, over Regiment/Company kill counts any day!

Make moving in formation quicker. We've all run alone and felt it. Run with a group and time flies. No lagging behind when 30 plus guys shout 'get your arse moving'.

There are so many things the game can do better than player 'artificial' rules, just needs the will and the way.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on January 06, 2019, 07:51:21 pm
I was not replying to you, just putting emphasis on the fact it's retarded and anyone with a gun should be able to tell you that. You might not defend it, but other WoR developers do, and so do so many WoR players. Mind you, you don't even admit it's retarded and wrong, just 'that you will look into it'. Tell me, TrustyJam, do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?

Why are you so aggressive in the manner which you conduct yourself?

If you wish for me to provide you with any information please ask me properly without insulting myself and my dev team.

- Trusty

Where am I being aggressive? Where am I being insulting? I ask you quite straightforward and directly whether you think this reloading animation makes practical sense and if it's historical accurate. 

Now, if you don't want to answer that question, that's fine. Can't force you. But don't throw the 'Insults!'-cards because you lack a proper answer. It's too easy to pretend you misinterpret the directness in which I ask these questions, because I'm sure you understand just fine. We're both adults. Nowhere did I insult you or your dev team, and anyone can see that. So let me ask again:

Do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: TrustyJam on January 06, 2019, 07:58:25 pm
I was not replying to you, just putting emphasis on the fact it's retarded and anyone with a gun should be able to tell you that. You might not defend it, but other WoR developers do, and so do so many WoR players. Mind you, you don't even admit it's retarded and wrong, just 'that you will look into it'. Tell me, TrustyJam, do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?

Why are you so aggressive in the manner which you conduct yourself?

If you wish for me to provide you with any information please ask me properly without insulting myself and my dev team.

- Trusty

Where am I being aggressive? Where am I being insulting? I ask you quite straightforward and directly whether you think this reloading animation makes practical sense and if it's historical accurate. 

Now, if you don't want to answer that question, that's fine. Can't force you. But don't throw the 'Insults!'-cards because you lack a proper answer. It's too easy to pretend you misinterpret the directness in which I ask these questions. Nowhere did I insult you or your dev team, and anyone can see that. So let me ask again:

Do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?

Thank you for not calling us nor our project retarded in every other sentence.

The load animation was done after video material recorded by our historical advisor.

As you and several others have pointed out it has some errors which will be corrected at some point - but it is not a priority to us animation-wise currently.

I do not lack a proper answer - I give you the same answer I gave in the thread that was linked to.

There's no great cover-up movement or the like which you seem to believe you've uncovered.

- Trusty
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on January 06, 2019, 08:07:12 pm
Quote
Thank you for not calling us nor our project retarded in every other sentence.

I didn't. I never did. I called the animation retarded. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim I've insulted you.

Quote
I do not lack a proper answer - I give you the same answer I gave in the thread that was linked to.

And I asked whether you think the animation itself is accurate or not. Which you did not answer in the WoR thread nor on this one until just now. Thank you for answering my question.

Quote
There's no great cover-up movement or the like which you seem to believe you've uncovered

I don't believe I uncovered anything, and I don't see the added value of this remark. The criticism on the animation is easily backed up with several arguments and wildly shared. Asking whether you think it is correct seems a valid question and you spend most of your post either claiming I insulted you (Which I did not, and again, anyone can read back and see that my criticism is entirely directed towards the animation) or demeaning my criticism with remarks like this.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: TrustyJam on January 06, 2019, 08:20:16 pm
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Thank you for not calling us nor our project retarded in every other sentence.

I didn't. I never did. I called the animation retarded. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim I've insulted you.

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I do not lack a proper answer - I give you the same answer I gave in the thread that was linked to.

And I asked whether you think the animation itself is accurate or not. Which you did not answer in the WoR thread nor on this one until just now. Thank you for answering my question.

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There's no great cover-up movement or the like which you seem to believe you've uncovered

I don't believe I uncovered anything, and I don't see the added value of this remark. The criticism on the animation is easily backed up with several arguments and wildly shared. Asking whether you think it is correct seems a valid question and you spend most of your post either claiming I insulted you (Which I did not, and again, anyone can read back and see that my criticism is entirely directed towards the animation) or demeaning my criticism with remarks like this.

I stated close to two years ago that I'd pass it onwards to our historical advisor (in the thread that was linked to).

I would not have done so had I believed it was flawless.

I won't be taking up more space here when this thread and forum is dedicated to another game.

- Trusty
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: JoseyWales on January 06, 2019, 08:22:12 pm
WoR is not a civil war simulator, it's a re-enactor simulator.
Well said m8!
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duke Of LongTree on January 06, 2019, 08:36:46 pm
WoR is not a civil war simulator, it's a re-enactor simulator.
Well said m8!

hes not wrong ...
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: TrustyJam on January 06, 2019, 08:46:51 pm
WoR is not a civil war simulator, it's a re-enactor simulator.
Well said m8!

hes not wrong ...

We're thrilled if we've come as close as reenacting. :)

- Trusty
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on January 06, 2019, 08:57:27 pm
If historical accuracy is your goal, then you really shouldn't.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: TrustyJam on January 06, 2019, 09:00:43 pm
If historical accuracy is your goal, then you really shouldn't.

Historical authenticity/Immersion is our goal - we're quite pleased to be compared to a digital form of reenacting.

- Trusty
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Xethos on January 06, 2019, 09:04:07 pm
It was along time ago so correct me if Im wrong. Where do I begin.... Lets start at the top, the inability to target Officers. I mean really, its the first natural choice of target surely! Cut off the head and the body fails.

Some rules like Line only, no Skirmishers, Light, Flag bearers or Musicians. Lets get rid of Trees, Hills and cover completely and fight in a perfectly flat Arena shall we!!!!!

Whats with the strict rule on Skirmish spacing (if even allowed in game). Skirmishers surely should take advantage of terrain and cover, and not be concerned by the 3-4 spaces between them and their fellow skirmisher.

Lets move on to gaps in the line and firing rule, it happened as the chaos of battle and as soldiers drop.... why penalise a regiment in the heat of battle for some gaps in the line?

Movement in Line only!?!?!?! Why????

All of these things vary from event to event. I can't speak to EU event, but no combined arms event in NA bans officer aiming. A lot of events had rules (or less strict enforcement) allowing skirms to use cover as they saw fit.

In regard to competitive play itself, all of the rules that pop up in league rules are intended to isolate skill at the game (whether they're successful is a different question). There were attempts to do more realistic competitive battles if memory serves, but they all died out from a lack of sustained interest. People who want to pretend they're actually a soldier in 1812 and people who sweat just haven't mixed well,

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I mean you build a game, and then start saying we dont want to build in restrictions. No need, the player based restrictions are worse and hamstring the game completely! They put me off taking NW or HF seriously. If you are building a game for the old NW crowd and their competitions then be honest and tell us, otherwise give us some game built options to help promote the game we wish to play (Realism/Hardcore/Arcade).

If nobody else wanted to play the way you want to play, that's not the game's fault. That's the fault of everybody who didn't make the event or host the server with the rules you want (or if they did, the fault of everybody who didn't play on those servers). It's less the case today, but for three or four years after NW released, you could go to a dozen different servers at any given time and get a different experience, plus the myriad of different linebattles or competitive play that took several different approaches.

My understanding at this point is that BCoF's server settings will be extensive enough to allow for different kinds of game play. You could probably prevail on somebody who runs a server to get the kind of setup you want with enough convincing (or get your own server if you have the means). If that's what people want to play, you won't have any problems, and if they don't, well, I don't think it'd be a weakness of the game to give them the choice to play a different way on a different server.

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For a start lose the competition reference, surely every game is a competition between sides. A winner, loser or draw! By pushing the Competition label, you are cheapening the experience. Making a two tier game, the one plebs play and then the self called 'Pros!' Cant they play together with game applied rules and experience the game together?

Competitive NW was pretty much always player-driven. For a long time, there were less serious players in competitive, but they slowly either quit playing or quit doing competitive over time (again, speaking from NA experience). That was entirely a community push. You can read the event threads to see why people didn't want to deal with it forever, especially as the game put on years.

In combined arms events, pub events, whatever you want to call them, there has always been a mix of people who need to win and everybody else. I don't think anybody unironically wakes up in the morning and thinks, you know what would make this a perfect day? Losing! But there are plenty of people who just don't care. Plenty of people just jump on the game to meme with their friends or walk into cannonballs, or plant sapper crates in earthworks to try to blow up enemies charging artillery even if it would have been more effective to run to the rest of the team and melee with them. Those sorts of people were never interested in competitive. They try to win, sure, but they're more interested in fun. But the things that make the casual players laugh are the things that make competitive players flip tables (e.g., having the entire line deleted by a howitzer shell).
I guess what I'd ask is you think that split could actually be fully overcome without sacrificing the interests of either group, realizing as well that there is a crossover of players who like doing both at different times.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Charles Caldwell on January 06, 2019, 09:31:55 pm

My understanding at this point is that BCoF's server settings will be extensive enough to allow for different kinds of game play. You could probably prevail on somebody who runs a server to get the kind of setup you want with enough convincing (or get your own server if you have the means).

I dont just think its me but I get your point. I'm encouraged that you feel a more 'realistic' gameplay is possible currently with BCoF. I do however get the impression BCoF is and will be heavily influenced by the NW Competitive community, whether thats a good thing or bad we'll see.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duke Of LongTree on January 06, 2019, 09:56:02 pm

My understanding at this point is that BCoF's server settings will be extensive enough to allow for different kinds of game play. You could probably prevail on somebody who runs a server to get the kind of setup you want with enough convincing (or get your own server if you have the means).

I dont just think its me but I get your point. I'm encouraged that you feel a more 'realistic' gameplay is possible currently with BCoF. I do however get the impression BCoF is and will be heavily influenced by the NW Competitive community, whether thats a good thing or bad we'll see.

lol the NW Comp community just do group fights and 1v1 linebattles they are not really influencing Bcof ...
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Charles Caldwell on January 06, 2019, 10:50:13 pm

lol the NW Comp community just do group fights and 1v1 linebattles they are not really influencing Bcof ...

Well reading between the lines and knowing the love of Melee only comps within the NW Community, It seems Melee within BCoF is being given equal prominace in what is predominantly musketry game. Im sure we might find other concessions as the game progresses.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Dazzer on January 06, 2019, 10:56:31 pm
Two, the stupid pinky finger at the end. Try pushing down a ramrod with just a pinky. It won't work.
1:42

https://youtu.be/VCAYXQ1Z6q4?t=101
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duke Of LongTree on January 06, 2019, 11:13:20 pm

lol the NW Comp community just do group fights and 1v1 linebattles they are not really influencing Bcof ...

Well reading between the lines and knowing the love of Melee only comps within the NW Community, It seems Melee within BCoF is being given equal prominace in what is predominantly musketry game. Im sure we might find other concessions as the game progresses.

so what you saying is no melee combat in a war that had a good deal of bayonet combat yes its not the most historical bayonet fighting but its there to make the game fun unless you just want a click fest like verdun and war of rights
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Charles Caldwell on January 06, 2019, 11:24:01 pm
Did I say no melee combat should be used?
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duke Of LongTree on January 06, 2019, 11:33:43 pm
Did I say no melee combat should be used?

im not saying you did but im saying its based off the mount blade system of melee combat which was around before comp stuff like dad always said if it aint broke dont fix it
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Aztir on January 06, 2019, 11:59:27 pm
Plenty of people just jump on the game to meme with their friends or walk into cannonballs, or plant sapper crates in earthworks to try to blow up enemies charging artillery
even if it would have been more effective to run to the rest of the team and melee with them. Those sorts of people were never interested in competitive. They try to win, sure, but they're more interested in fun.

This, is why i still play NW daily and enjoy the game after 8 years of playing.
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Duuring on January 07, 2019, 12:56:43 pm
Two, the stupid pinky finger at the end. Try pushing down a ramrod with just a pinky. It won't work.
1:42

https://youtu.be/VCAYXQ1Z6q4?t=101

Fair enough, you got me there. But (of course there's a but) let me rephrase that: It's unnecessarily making your life more difficult for no good reason. Try that with a ramrod that's been in the weather or has been slightly bend, as so often happens when you use the ramrod as a tool to cook (Which is something mainstream re-enactors won't do exactly because it will bend the ramrod). It will be much more resistent and you can apply absolutely no force with just your pinky.

This is what it says in Casey's drill, which is identical to Hardee in this section, by the way:
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(Third motion.)  Force the rammer home by placing the little finger of the right hand on the head of the rammer; pass the left hand down the barrel to the extent of the arm, without depressing the shoulder.

Now, this often gets interpreted, as in this video, that one must place the little finger and the little finger only on the ramrod. But you can place the little finger on the rammer and still use the (whole force of the) hand. My guess is they specifically mention the little finger, as placing another finger would place part of the hand over the loaded barrel. There is no mention of this movement in Napoleonic drill manuals, and again my presumption is that they added is as they realized rammers don't just slide down the gun freely.

As an little addition, this re-enactor does not follow the actual instruction on how to use the rammer.

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6. Ram—CARTRIDGE.

Insert the rammer as far as the right, and steady it in this position with the thumb of the left hand; seize the rammer at the small end with the thumb and fore-finger of the right hand, the back of the band to the front; press the ball home, the elbows near the body.

He does it the re-enactor way, which you can also see in WoR. Wiggling the ramrod down four times, without much force. Of course, this works because he's using a small charge, no bullet and no paper. In real life, when loading with paper and a realistic charge, even without a bullet, you can't just wiggle the ramrod a little and expect result. You grab the end of the ramrod and ram it down, with force, in one go, and immediatly return the rammer. As it says in the drill manual: You press the ball home. In the 1791 Napoleonic drill, it says (translated from Dutch)

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One stretches the arm as long as one can, with the right hand climbing up, to grab the rammer with the extended thumb and bend first finger, while the others remain closed. One stamps twice with force into the barrel [...]

Note that specify the amounts of times you ram down, exactly to avoid wasting time. There's some discussion whether or not to place the thumb on top of the ramrod, or alongside. For safety reasons, we tend to place it alongside but it's harder to apply force that way.

Speaking of re-enactor drill, god, 2:08 made me cringe. That rear-rank barrel is so close to that front-rank man. STEP FORWARD WHEN FIRING DAMN IT.
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183. The rear-rank men, in aiming, will each carry the right foot about eight inches to the right, and towards the left heel of  the man next it the right, inclining the upper part of the body forward.

Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Sturk on January 12, 2019, 01:23:48 pm
there's chambers? take my money
Title: Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
Post by: Maple™ on January 12, 2019, 09:24:13 pm
Why would you want to dumb down a melee system that already is very easy to learn? I think FSE should try to make it more advanced and complex if anything.
Because the primary focus of the competitive melee scene is bayonets, at a certain level of skill fights become very monotonous due to the game rewarding ultra passive, low-risk styles (To be fair though this mostly only affects 1v1 duels, but dueling is still a huge part of the competitive scene).
Once you play the game long enough, feints don't really phase you since there are only 2 animations for attacks. You could close your eyes and you'd have a 50/50 chance of blocking it.
A simple fix would be to increase the speed in feinting animations, or just speed up the game in general.
Another thing I think should be looked at is glances/pokes. In NW glances add a huge RNG factor to the melee because there doesn't seem to be a reliable way to determine whether or not you will glance.
(Off topic, but another idea I think would be neat is to add an option to play as your own customized character alongside the pre-set ones; like being able to choose your own outfit/ weapon skin)