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Mount & Blade Warband: Napoleonic Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Menelaos on September 07, 2013, 04:13:48 am

Title: Lancers: Still an Issue AGAINST OTHER CAVALRY
Post by: Menelaos on September 07, 2013, 04:13:48 am
Has anyone noticed that lancer supremacy makes any other cavalry class impossible to play? I realize that this is this has been an apparent problem since MM and somewhat fixed in NW. However, should they be limited in actually ability or numbers? I just haven't seen any rules (at least in the majority of NA/EU events I play in) that limit lancers, which seemed to happened in MM. Would making the lancer cap of 10 benefit smaller cavalry groups or just fuck over lancer tactics in general?

Example:

Cavalry on team 1 is X, Cav on team 2 is Z. If X has 15 lancers and Z is at 10 then clearly Z will lose no matter what. If Z was allowed lancers because they fit a rule that stated that 10 or less allows lancers then Z would have better chances against X.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: ClearlyInvsible on September 07, 2013, 04:19:56 am
Seems fair enough. I mean Lancers are pretty much the end all cavalry in NW, unless you shoot them off the horse before they get close to you you're a dead man.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: McEwan on September 07, 2013, 05:31:51 am
Not the case. If a group of lancers is not extremely well-coordinated, hussars or even heavy cav can easily get in close, disrupt the formation, and cut them down. Multiple times we (PLG) have been hussars (sometimes less than 12-strong) and destroyed 15-man lancer squadrons with only around 5 casualties. Lancers can be killed just as easily other cav units; it just depends on the respective skill of the opposing forces, just like engagements with any other type of cav. If you know how to beat them, you can.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Peppers on September 07, 2013, 05:40:22 am
These threads are pure gold.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: tjdietz on September 07, 2013, 05:41:28 am
I maybe could see your point on a more inexperienced level but when you get better at cav lancers become easy you look for your chance to attack when their bucked and cant block or from behind and unless your running strait at them their rarely going to get a 1 hit kill.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: SeanBeansShako on September 07, 2013, 05:51:20 am
No they are not. Pay attention and shoot them/their horse and they go down easily. Just hope when they get up with the saber you can handle them.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Madbull on September 07, 2013, 06:05:55 am
Down block if there not Couching.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheBoberton on September 07, 2013, 07:58:40 am
Lancers have never really been a problem for someone who has even a rudimentary grasp of situational awareness.

The only issue I've had lately is getting used to using the shortened light cavalry sabre against them. :P
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: regwilliam on September 07, 2013, 11:34:22 am
when you kill their horse don't let them get back they are more dangours when they get back up
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Riddlez on September 07, 2013, 11:39:17 am
The couched lances are easy to dodge, and rarely a lancer (at least in public), have any skill whatsoever.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Partisan on September 07, 2013, 11:47:09 am
People are still arguing this? They ****ed the lancer class. It is still playable but when you think M&M... Stop hating lancers  :'(
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Erik le Rouge on September 07, 2013, 12:43:50 pm
A single lancer, for sure is easy to kill. You just have to be careful with your horse, and keep it alive. Then, a cool block, and you throw yourself on him to slash his face with your sword, he just can't escape.
If you're a cuirassier, then, act like it ! Tank as much as possible, and get your giant sword into the ennemy.
If you're on foot, block and wait for some help :D

But if a cav (hussars for example) regiment face a lancer regiment, which is organized etc, there's way more challenge, and I personnally find this attractive. I'm a cavalry man for 2 years now, and I don't think lancers ruin the game, that's just another way to fight, and it's always good to know how to face a lancer or many.

Anyway, the last time the 7e faced a entire lancer regiment was on MMRussia, against the FK if I'm not mistaken. So yeah, doesn't really matter ;)
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Jelly on September 07, 2013, 01:05:00 pm
(Rider 1)Aim to cut the lancer off in a diagonal movement in-front of him, while blocking downwards.
His horse will rear up, and render the lance useless.
(Rider 2)Quickly follow in and attack the vulnerable rear of the lancer.

*DISCLAIMER*
This method can end up in the death of Rider 1 if not done carefully.
It worked in the KDG.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: MackCW on September 07, 2013, 01:55:45 pm
These threads happen because the PLG changes the tide of battle during NA events.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Dom13WorstNW on September 07, 2013, 02:12:47 pm
These threads happen because the PLG changes the tide of battle during NA events.

PLG cant be Stopped. Need a Nerf 
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Archduke Sven on September 07, 2013, 03:01:28 pm
Seems fair enough. I mean Lancers are pretty much the end all cavalry in NW, unless you shoot them off the horse before they get close to you you're a dead man.

Are you a noob or something? I find it much, much harder to beat hussars than lancers, since lancers are just nooby and all you have to do is downblock, and if they couch the lance you can just jump into their horse and take barely any damage. And when they come back around all you have to do is stand infron of their horse and stab them when they can't hit you back. Not to mention the bayonet outranges the lance.

Lancers are frustrating when playing as cavalry though, but all you have to do is not engage them and let the infantry take care of it instead.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: SeanBeansShako on September 07, 2013, 04:24:00 pm
Or not be dumb, and wait for the enemy to be distracted and hope the map you are playing on isn't a flat featureless waste ground so you can get close enough to hit them in the flanks and run.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Matim on September 07, 2013, 04:26:06 pm
Everytime some experts are spaming again and again about downblocking. Did anyone of those ppl has ever thought that lancer can aim for the horse, which unfortunately isn't allowed to block?
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: MackCW on September 07, 2013, 04:40:50 pm
Everytime some experts are spaming again and again about downblocking. Did anyone of those ppl has ever thought that lancer can aim for the horse, which unfortunately isn't allowed to block?

I think they are talking about playing as infantry.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: fireboy on September 07, 2013, 04:58:35 pm
It just depends on the skill of the individual player in my opinion. For example last night, the Reddit brigade had cav against the PLG, we were UK hussars vs French lancers  (PLG). We won against them about half the  times we engaged because of knowing how to block a lance, and letting them stab first and miss then go in for a strike on their horses. You just have to practice cav to know how to handle lancers,heavy cav, and hussars. There's NA cavalry groupfighting which anyone that wants to can practice on.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: ClearlyInvsible on September 07, 2013, 06:25:34 pm
No I'm not a noob -_-

For God's sake I'm a noob because I have a different opinion than you? WTF is that?
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheSnowHindu on September 07, 2013, 07:21:52 pm
I'd much prefer to fight a good lancer than a good hussar. No matter how good they are you can easily counter lancers with a simple down block, or if they couch just go infront of their horse or stab it as it comes. I can understand why other cavalry get cut up by lancers though, the difference in range between a sword and a lance must be hard to fight. Still, as an infantry Korporal, the only good cavalryman is a dead dehorsed cavalryman so cavalry killing other cavalry bothers me little.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Menelaos on September 07, 2013, 07:48:40 pm
If anyone is curious, I'm not referencing the PLG or infantry v. cavalry. I'm citing the effectiveness of other classes against lancers, which is think is poor unless you have people trained in cavalry.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheBoberton on September 07, 2013, 08:22:50 pm
You're right. I say we take away their lances.

#CavalryEquality
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Dionysus on September 07, 2013, 08:38:44 pm
Lancers aren't OP, they have weaknesses just like any other type of troop.

But please don't think you're skilled at melee or good in general because you backstab people with a spear twice as long as a man, on a horse, with a heavy cavalry sabre.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Riddlez on September 07, 2013, 08:53:37 pm
Why is it nesscary to be a balanced game?
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Thunderstormer on September 07, 2013, 09:01:19 pm
Lancers aren't OP, they have weaknesses just like any other type of troop.

But please don't think you're skilled at melee or good in general because you backstab people with a spear twice as long as a man, on a horse, with a heavy cavalry sabre.

Let it be noted that no lancer unit has a heavy cav sword in the game as a default.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Dionysus on September 07, 2013, 09:37:58 pm
Lancers aren't OP, they have weaknesses just like any other type of troop.

But please don't think you're skilled at melee or good in general because you backstab people with a spear twice as long as a man, on a horse, with a heavy cavalry sabre.

Let it be noted that no lancer unit has a heavy cav sword in the game as a default.

Absolutely! Thank you for the correction, lancers have light cavalry sabres. Even worse because they're faster.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Thunderstormer on September 07, 2013, 09:56:03 pm

Absolutely! Thank you for the correction, lancers have light cavalry sabres. Even worse because they're faster.

Personally I think the heavy cav sword is better than the saber.  Slightly slower but extra range and damage more than make up for the lost speed imo .

and I believe lancers have crappy WPF for swords compared to hussars or any other cav class so even light sabers are slow compared to say a hussar.(someone can correct me if I am wrong about the unit stats)  I am pretty sure lancers have better polearm WPF than they do for swords so they are better off taking a bayo into battle if they are dismounted than a sword.  The lack of WPF for lancers is noticeable for a person like me who plays mostly hussar.

This is just my experience from playing as cav for more than a year now.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Menelaos on September 08, 2013, 12:01:16 am
A single lancer, for sure is easy to kill. You just have to be careful with your horse, and keep it alive. Then, a cool block, and you throw yourself on him to slash his face with your sword, he just can't escape.
If you're a cuirassier, then, act like it ! Tank as much as possible, and get your giant sword into the ennemy.
If you're on foot, block and wait for some help :D

But if a cav (hussars for example) regiment face a lancer regiment, which is organized etc, there's way more challenge, and I personnally find this attractive. I'm a cavalry man for 2 years now, and I don't think lancers ruin the game, that's just another way to fight, and it's always good to know how to face a lancer or many.

Anyway, the last time the 7e faced a entire lancer regiment was on MMRussia, against the FK if I'm not mistaken. So yeah, doesn't really matter ;)

I think my OP was a bit mis-directed. This is the best response, thanks for the input.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: tacticalretreat on September 08, 2013, 01:40:50 am
I swear if these threads about lancers pop up again im going to cry, anyway a very good lancer is I dont want to say it but near impossible to beat. Why? The reach, yes people may tell you to let them thrust and then attack or block down and block there horse. No this doesnt work against the best lancers, I know from experience of playing both, a good lancer when missing there thrust just increases the gap. Sure you have the slightly faster hussar horse but you cannot guess where the enemy is going to move thus making it very easy for a lancer to dodge you and prepare his next attack. Also a smart lancer and cavalry play in general knows to target the horse ^^


But aside from the pros, sure there is a slight imbalance but a good hussar reg will always do well, as in group combat cavalry gets distracted and doesnt see the cav on his left when hes facing right etc. so on a 1v1 base yes its pretty hard to beat lancers, group combat though? no they are beatable
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Riddlez on September 08, 2013, 04:49:15 pm
I swear if these threads about lancers pop up again im going to cry, anyway a very good lancer is I dont want to say it but near impossible to beat. Why? The reach, yes people may tell you to let them thrust and then attack or block down and block there horse. No this doesnt work against the best lancers, I know from experience of playing both, a good lancer when missing there thrust just increases the gap. Sure you have the slightly faster hussar horse but you cannot guess where the enemy is going to move thus making it very easy for a lancer to dodge you and prepare his next attack. Also a smart lancer and cavalry play in general knows to target the horse ^^

You can't beat an expert hussar either.

And anyway, I don't think this game SHOULD b balanced, but be accurate. JUat accept the fact you can't win against superior classes
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: tacticalretreat on September 08, 2013, 05:08:12 pm
you can, hussar sword is nice and short a good infantry can beat a good hussar due to the range ;) a good hussar or any cavalryman will always get a good score but the smaller sword makes a massive difference
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Riddlez on September 08, 2013, 06:39:10 pm
you can, hussar sword is nice and short a good infantry can beat a good hussar due to the range ;) a good hussar or any cavalryman will always get a good score but the smaller sword makes a massive difference

Listen to yourself. You said it's impossible to kill an expert lancer, the same goes for hussars and HC.

And there are, as I said before, barely any skilled lancers pubbing anyway.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Dionysus on September 08, 2013, 07:26:06 pm
This is how I'm sure most of us deal with cavalry and I find works the vast majority of the time. Of course, the easiest way to kill cavalry is to pretend you can't notice them coming up from behind you. lel.  ::)

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi208.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb15%2FExodiaj%2F01_zpsc9bc08e4.png&hash=26c556815d5ab51fea0bbfadee8a2cff221be102) (http://s208.photobucket.com/user/Exodiaj/media/01_zpsc9bc08e4.png.html)
[close]

The most often ways I die from cavalry is if I screw up the timing of this strategy, or wasn't paying attention and got attacked from behind or the sides.

The dangerous cavalry are the ones that are aware of this technique. I have found they will do some of the following:

1) They change directions and come at you from a different angle. Use same strategy and they will either die or -
2) They slow down and continuously proceed inside and outside of the attack zone, tricking you to prematurely attack and often you die. Hold your attacks and place them carefully. 
3) Will totally leave you alone until they believe you are no longer paying attention to them. They will attack from wherever your not facing.

My end point is nothing is "impossible to kill".  ???
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Killington on September 08, 2013, 07:37:55 pm
My preferred method is to just pointblank them, if they were a cavalry, they deserved it.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Salt on September 09, 2013, 04:45:56 pm
Lancers die with a good stabby stabby.  :)
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheZach_Attack on September 09, 2013, 04:53:12 pm
Lancers are usually easy to kill for me. You just taunt then into stabbing you by slowly riding the when they commit you go fast as f get in front of their horse while down blocking get their horse to buck while blocking the thrust then go in for the kill.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Archduke Sven on September 09, 2013, 05:04:11 pm
No I'm not a noob -_-

For God's sake I'm a noob because I have a different opinion than you? WTF is that?

The fact that you can't, or fail to realize that you can block a lance simply by moving your mouse down a bit and right clicking, tells me that you're either a noob, or don't know how to fight cav. That has nothing to do with your opinion, its what you have stated, that you think the only way to kill lancer cavalry is to shoot them, which quite frankly is non sense. Instead of getting offended and typing "WTF" maybe you should have clarified why you said that?
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Menelaos on September 09, 2013, 05:38:44 pm
My preferred method is to just pointblank them, if they were a cavalry, they deserved it.
Lancers die with a good stabby stabby.  :)
Lancers are usually easy to kill for me. You just taunt then into stabbing you by slowly riding the when they commit you go fast as f get in front of their horse while down blocking get their horse to buck while blocking the thrust then go in for the kill.

This is about lancers against other Calvary types.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Killington on September 09, 2013, 05:44:56 pm
My preferred method is to just pointblank them, if they were a cavalry, they deserved it.
Lancers die with a good stabby stabby.  :)
Lancers are usually easy to kill for me. You just taunt then into stabbing you by slowly riding the when they commit you go fast as f get in front of their horse while down blocking get their horse to buck while blocking the thrust then go in for the kill.

This is about lancers against other Calvary types.
I know. Dragoon or officer with a pistol, point blank.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheBoberton on September 09, 2013, 05:45:15 pm
Outmaneuver the lancer, and attack him in such a way that he cannot respond. I find that from behind generally works. As a hussar, you are both faster and more maneuverable, and you have a skill advantage if the lancer draws his sabre.

Heavy cavalry has to just take the hits they will get, not just from lancers, but from hussars and dragoons, as they all are faster.

Dragoons.. well dragoons are dragoons. If you can't figure out which end of the carbine to point at the lancer, I pity you.

And in the end, you need to remember that lancers are equipped specifically to fight other cavalry, so you will, quite often, die. It is quite simple. When fighting against lancers without a significant skill difference, you will die. Death awaits those who engage lancers without being properly prepared. You. Will. Die.

Did I explain that simply enough?
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheZach_Attack on September 09, 2013, 10:01:49 pm
Oh week in that case Mene stay away from guns and use dat op reach get the horse or the guy if he's not blocking and of course use the OP couch GG my boi Mene.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Matim on September 09, 2013, 10:13:49 pm
Spoiler
Outmaneuver the lancer, and attack him in such a way that he cannot respond. I find that from behind generally works. As a hussar, you are both faster and more maneuverable, and you have a skill advantage if the lancer draws his sabre.

Heavy cavalry has to just take the hits they will get, not just from lancers, but from hussars and dragoons, as they all are faster.

Dragoons.. well dragoons are dragoons. If you can't figure out which end of the carbine to point at the lancer, I pity you.

And in the end, you need to remember that lancers are equipped specifically to fight other cavalry, so you will, quite often, die. It is quite simple. When fighting against lancers without a significant skill difference, you will die. Death awaits those who engage lancers without being properly prepared. You. Will. Die.

Did I explain that simply enough?
[close]

Yeap, the problem is that they are more effective against infantry than any other cav units (especially after this fucktarded patch)
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheBoberton on September 09, 2013, 10:39:14 pm
This is about lancers against other Calvary types.
Yeap, the problem is that they are more effective against infantry than any other cav units (especially after this fucktarded patch)

Can you two get together and decide which aspect of lancers you wish to complain about?
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheZach_Attack on September 09, 2013, 11:30:02 pm
This is about lancers against other Calvary types.
Yeap, the problem is that they are more effective against infantry than any other cav units (especially after this fucktarded patch)

Can you two get together and decide which aspect of lancers you wish to complain about?
I think talking about both would be lovely.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Maroon on September 09, 2013, 11:31:58 pm
I agree with the general opinion here that lancers indeed are killable, even as cavalry. The problem, though (from my point of view), is that lancers are a lot easier to get in to. A whack-ass lancer can kill a decent hussar or cuirassier, and a decent lancer has an easier job at killing good cavalry than a decent hussar would have, and I think there should be a way to balance that a bit more, if only FSE were to make another patch. I can live with the way lancers are now, but I'd like to see them downscaled a bit more.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheBoberton on September 10, 2013, 12:30:58 am
The problem, though (from my point of view), is that lancers are a lot easier to get in to. A whack-ass lancer can kill a decent hussar or cuirassier, and a decent lancer has an easier job at killing good cavalry than a decent hussar would have

That is entirely the point of anti-cavalry cavalry. They have a longer weapon to strike their enemy before they can be struck themselves.

I can live with the way lancers are now, but I'd like to see them downscaled a bit more.

How? Shorter lances? No sword? Slower horses? Any of these would take them from being a decent class to the worst possible choice. They already have a lower one-handed skill, and a lower riding skill than hussars, and they can't block with their primary melee weapon (Which every other class in NW can do, with the exception of a Russian partizan with the long pike)

Lancers are, by design, overpowered. And I hope that never changes.



And their ability to kill infantry is simply a side-effect of the fact that they're.. you know.. carrying a spear.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Maroon on September 10, 2013, 01:10:20 pm
Yea, that's the problem, I can't think of a way to downgrade em a bit more without making them completely underpowered.
Also, it's almost impossible to make them the worst possible choice, as long as British Light Dragoons are around. :P
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheBoberton on September 10, 2013, 01:26:09 pm
Yea, that's the problem, I can't think of a way to downgrade em a bit more without making them completely underpowered.

Yes, that is a problem. Lancers are at the lowest point they can be at, and still be a viable choice, and people want to make them worse.

Also, it's almost impossible to make them the worst possible choice, as long as British Light Dragoons are around. :P

The British light dragoons aren't a bad choice at all. Not my kind of cavalry, as I prefer to use a pistol at most, but a viable option nonetheless. And should lancers be 'nerfed' in any fashion, the light dragoons would be better off.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Riddlez on September 10, 2013, 10:43:01 pm
Decrease polearm proficiency:

It's very, very heavy to turn around a long solid piece of wood. It should be quite useless in CQB.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: TheBoberton on September 10, 2013, 11:11:20 pm
It should be quite useless in CQB.

It already is, unless you can chamber damn well, and you're facing someone with a bayonet. It's the same on horseback; If you get within sword swinging distance, and stay there, a lancer is yours to kill, because his lance will bounce all day long.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Curtis on September 11, 2013, 02:51:58 pm
the only issue i have with lancers is the fact that everyone sees 47th_lancs tags and called us the 47th lancers. but other than that, lances are fine
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Jelly on September 11, 2013, 06:51:00 pm
Yea, that's the problem, I can't think of a way to downgrade em a bit more without making them completely underpowered.
Also, it's almost impossible to make them the worst possible choice, as long as British Light Dragoons are around. :P
Maroon, everyone knows British Light Dragoons are the best cav in NW, y u heff to be med at them?
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Rozza on September 11, 2013, 09:24:44 pm
What is the point in this thread?

People have been bitching about lancers since MM. It doesn't matter if they are slightly better than the other classes. You can't nerf lancers to make them equal to other classes, it's simply impossible. There is a reason the lance was the dominant weapon in the Napoleonic Wars!
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue?
Post by: Menelaos on September 11, 2013, 09:40:37 pm
I don't recall making posts about any sort of nerf, I argued for the event regulations of limiting lancers in events versus other cavalry in the OP.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue AGAINST OTHER FUCKING CAVALRY
Post by: TheBoberton on September 11, 2013, 10:38:08 pm
Just lock the thread.
Title: Re: Lancers: Still an Issue AGAINST OTHER FUCKING CAVALRY
Post by: Menelaos on September 11, 2013, 10:55:20 pm
Seeing as nobody reads, I'm going to lock the thread.