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The Lounge => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: Odysseus on February 07, 2013, 03:06:43 am

Title: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Odysseus on February 07, 2013, 03:06:43 am
I think the whole War of 1812 fits the title. Anyway, discuss stupid mistakes in military history here!
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Scrat555 on February 07, 2013, 03:23:06 am
I'd say the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Karth on February 07, 2013, 04:18:42 am
^I agree... Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan was just a waste, and a sort of forgotten war.   
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Nipplestockings on February 07, 2013, 04:24:26 am
Battle of Cannae
Napoleon's invasion of Russia
Hitler's invasion of russia
Various wars that the Teutonic Order staged against its adversaries
Franco-Prussian war
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Rogov on February 07, 2013, 04:40:04 am
The Battle of Carrhae
The Fourth Crusade (although the Venetians did rather well for themselves :P)
The Winter War
The Dieppe Raid
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on February 07, 2013, 08:23:30 am
Not every failed campaign is a blunder :p
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Mr T on February 07, 2013, 08:43:22 am
Not every failed campaign is a blunder :p
Very true old chap!

Charge of the Light Brigade, terrible blunders.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Connzcdf on February 07, 2013, 10:29:24 am
Napoleons invasion of Russia.
Napoleons failure to go to Spain, while Arthur Wellesley was there.

EDIT: And Marshal Grouchy's failure to pursue the Prussians after the battle of Ligny.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Tali on February 07, 2013, 11:52:28 am
Operation Barbarossa.

It is very, very stupid to start two-front wars.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoldenEagle on February 07, 2013, 01:30:31 pm
Battle of Gallipoli
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on February 07, 2013, 02:48:51 pm
Operation Barbarossa.

It is very, very stupid to start two-front wars.

The western front was silent, britain was recovering, and there's still one great enemy left. Hitler had no choice but to invade Russia. Mind you, the operation went very succesful at the start.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Tali on February 07, 2013, 03:12:35 pm
Operation Barbarossa.

It is very, very stupid to start two-front wars.

The western front was silent, britain was recovering, and there's still one great enemy left. Hitler had no choice but to invade Russia. Mind you, the operation went very succesful at the start.

Russia and Germany had a stable Non-Aggression pact. Hitler ought to have focused on breaking UK and remove any staging areas for northern europe invasion, and when Western Europe was secure, a invasion of Russia would have been fitting if launched in spring, and with proper planning and resources to see any eventual winter war trough.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: KillerMongoose on February 07, 2013, 03:44:03 pm
Battle of Pydna, the Macedonian phalanx was beating the Roman army but when the Romans withdrew over rough terrain, Perseus ordered his phalangites to press forward and pursue but the rough terrain disrupted the phalanx formation and Roman legionnaires were able to push through and break the phalanx. Perseus' decision to send his phalangites over rough terrain caused his lines to break allowing the Romans to shatter the phalanx.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Ililsa on February 08, 2013, 12:17:04 am
The retreat and destruction of Elphinstone's army during the First Anglo Afghan war.

Firstly, a show of British force following the murder of Sekundar Burnes may have quelled the Afghans, but the practically infirm Elphinstone instead wasted the time by dithering in the British cantons.

He then lost a party of political officers in a meeting with tribe leaders and did nothing.

The next bit can't quite be all Elphinstone's fault. The British army was meant to be granted safe passage through the Khyber by Akbar Khan, instead, throughout the passage through the frozen Khyber, the army was relentlessly hounded by the ghazis, losing huge numbers to both the tribesmen and the snow. Elphinstone, of course, did nothing.

Then Akbar Khan came forward again and took the married officers and their wives under his protection. While I don't believe anything ill happened to these prisoners, their loss did weaken the army further.

Perhaps the full destruction of the army could be seen with the last stand of the 44th East Essex. In the end, as I recall, only one man made it to the Army's destination (which I forget but I think it was Kandahar.)
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: James Grant on February 08, 2013, 12:31:42 am
The retreat and destruction of Elphinstone's army during the First Anglo Afghan war.

Firstly, a show of British force following the murder of Sekundar Burnes may have quelled the Afghans, but the practically infirm Elphinstone instead wasted the time by dithering in the British cantons.

He then lost a party of political officers in a meeting with tribe leaders and did nothing.

The next bit can't quite be all Elphinstone's fault. The British army was meant to be granted safe passage through the Khyber by Akbar Khan, instead, throughout the passage through the frozen Khyber, the army was relentlessly hounded by the ghazis, losing huge numbers to both the tribesmen and the snow. Elphinstone, of course, did nothing.

Then Akbar Khan came forward again and took the married officers and their wives under his protection. While I don't believe anything ill happened to these prisoners, their loss did weaken the army further.

Perhaps the full destruction of the army could be seen with the last stand of the 44th East Essex. In the end, as I recall, only one man made it to the Army's destination (which I forget but I think it was Kandahar.)

It was Jallilibad I believe which was being held (under siege) by a sizable detachment which had been sent back to India to try cut expenditure. Curious to think whether had they not been sent home whether they'd have died with the rest or would the man in charge of those battalions have been the saving grace of the army?


I'd say the Crimea War as a whole, though not the Charge of the Light Brigade (far more Russians died in that charge than British) every nation which fought in that war made a ridiculous amount of blunders. Britain should have stormed Sebastopol straight away when they and the French outnumbered the garrison 3-1 but instead they settled into a futile siege. Futile because they didn't have the fort surrounded. The field battles were generally successful for the British and French because of having superior cavalry and infantry, though the officers were extremely questionable.
But it was also the first modern war so was that essential war of fuck ups which taught nations how to fight in a new age.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Ililsa on February 08, 2013, 12:38:35 am
Ah, yes. I think it's spelt Jalallabad, though there might well be several different spellings in the Latin alphabet. Not sure where I got Kandahar.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Dordak_the_Lost on February 08, 2013, 12:41:59 am
Battle of Ball's Bluff(1861)
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: MackCW on February 08, 2013, 05:07:28 am
Marye's Heights  :o
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: 34th Artimus on February 08, 2013, 06:27:53 am
Battle of Gallipoli

Military defeats aren't blunders.

The blunder that always gets me is Boudica trapping herself and her army in with the Romans because they were so confident of victory. Damn wagons.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoldenEagle on February 08, 2013, 03:10:31 pm
Battle of Gallipoli

Military defeats aren't blunders.

The blunder that always gets me is Boudica trapping herself and her army in with the Romans because they were so confident of victory. Damn wagons.

Yes, but the Allies had too little supplies and thought they could just steam roll over the Turkish army, it was like the mistake Hitler did in ww2 I guess. (If I don't remember wrong)
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Slick on February 08, 2013, 03:13:33 pm
The Vietnam war, what a waste.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Nipplestockings on February 08, 2013, 03:32:43 pm
The Vietnam war, what a waste.
That wasn't really a blunder, but it was a waste. We didn't come out any worse after the conflict and we kind of just decided to pull out because we didn't feel like defending the south Vietnamese anymore.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Slick on February 08, 2013, 04:06:33 pm
We didn't come out any worse after the conflict

58,000 dead isn't worse off?

I feel that "oh, we don't feel like defending the southern vietnamese anymore, oh and yeah 58,000 confirmed dead." is a total blunder
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Nipplestockings on February 08, 2013, 04:09:44 pm
We didn't come out any worse after the conflict

58,000 dead isn't worse off?

I feel that "oh, we don't feel like defending the southern vietnamese anymore, oh and yeah 58,000 confirmed dead." is a total blunder

American and co. total dead: 430,538–714,564
Communist and co. total dead 451,462-1,166,462

Not a waste.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Odysseus on February 08, 2013, 04:53:45 pm
So we should kill people because they believe in a different political system?

Vietnam wasn't a blunder, but a truly terrible event.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Nipplestockings on February 08, 2013, 04:55:33 pm
So we should kill people because they believe in a different political system?

Vietnam wasn't a blunder, but a truly terrible event.
Last I checked the North Vietnamese, who were backed by the Chinese and the Russians were the aggressors in the situation, because, ya know, they invaded south vietnam.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoldenEagle on February 08, 2013, 05:04:17 pm
USA had to leave Vietnam because there was no public support of this battle. Atleast thats what they teach us in Norway  :P
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Odysseus on February 08, 2013, 05:06:03 pm
I still think the US and it's allies could have been a lot more careful during the whole operation. But alas, the tragedy is behind us.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Nipplestockings on February 08, 2013, 05:10:21 pm
Vietnam was fairly tame compared to many other wars. Wars will never, ever end. You should be glad we live in the civilized society that we do now and stop complaining about every bit of violence in the world. It will never stop regardless of how much money you donate to charity, or often you go to Washington to protest.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Karth on February 08, 2013, 05:13:44 pm
Vietname War Topic now I see  8)

A decade prior to the start of the war, The United States had been a signatory to SEATO (Southeast Asia Treaty Organization), in which the U.S., France, Great Britain, New Zealand, Australia, the Philippines, Thailand, and Pakistan pledged to prevent communism from gaining ground and spreading in South Asia.  Lyndon B. Johnson saw two scenarios, do nothing and let North Vietnam control South Vietnam , and potentially allow communism to spread all over South Asia; OR interfere and ally with South Vietnam and potentially win the war to stop communism in that region.  But no matter how many troops L.B.J. sent, the US could not win the war as the North Vietnamese were too strong, and the US troops did not really have any morale as over 58,000 troops were killed.  Also back home, there were huge anti-war protests and people raging over innocent Vietnamese being killed (and sometimes raped) by American forces.  In terms of it being a blunder or not, it could have been a blunder militarily strategy wise, as we should have had way more intel on the amount of VietCong, tactics and all that; AND also that 2 years after in 1975, North Vietnam overran an unsuspecting South Vietnam and currently Vietnam is "communist", but its more socialist now; Once North Vietnam controlled the South, the South, corruption was wide spread and it didnt really pan out well.  So maybe military wise it was a blunder, but overall I believe it was just a waste, as the end result would have been the same (maybe with a less amount of communists), but yea.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Slick on February 08, 2013, 06:40:04 pm
We didn't come out any worse after the conflict

58,000 dead isn't worse off?

I feel that "oh, we don't feel like defending the southern vietnamese anymore, oh and yeah 58,000 confirmed dead." is a total blunder

American and co. total dead: 430,538–714,564
Communist and co. total dead 451,462-1,166,462

Not a waste.
Hmm... Yeah, that looks like a pretty big waste to me
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Nipplestockings on February 08, 2013, 08:31:23 pm
We didn't come out any worse after the conflict

58,000 dead isn't worse off?

I feel that "oh, we don't feel like defending the southern vietnamese anymore, oh and yeah 58,000 confirmed dead." is a total blunder

American and co. total dead: 430,538–714,564
Communist and co. total dead 451,462-1,166,462

Not a waste.
Hmm... Yeah, that looks like a pretty big waste to me
Not anymore than any other wars. Stop being angsty.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoldenEagle on February 08, 2013, 08:46:58 pm
We didn't come out any worse after the conflict

58,000 dead isn't worse off?

I feel that "oh, we don't feel like defending the southern vietnamese anymore, oh and yeah 58,000 confirmed dead." is a total blunder

American and co. total dead: 430,538–714,564
Communist and co. total dead 451,462-1,166,462

Not a waste.
Hmm... Yeah, that looks like a pretty big waste to me
Not anymore than any other wars. Stop being angsty.

Maybe all wars are big waste  ;)
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Nipplestockings on February 08, 2013, 08:59:22 pm
We didn't come out any worse after the conflict

58,000 dead isn't worse off?

I feel that "oh, we don't feel like defending the southern vietnamese anymore, oh and yeah 58,000 confirmed dead." is a total blunder

American and co. total dead: 430,538–714,564
Communist and co. total dead 451,462-1,166,462

Not a waste.
Hmm... Yeah, that looks like a pretty big waste to me
Not anymore than any other wars. Stop being angsty.

Maybe all wars are big waste  ;)
That was my point. Modern day teenagers like to think that they live in a special time where wars now are somehow different than they've been for thousands of years.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Landrik on February 08, 2013, 09:37:16 pm
Battle of Halbe (South of Berlin)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Halbe
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on February 08, 2013, 10:01:09 pm
We didn't come out any worse after the conflict

58,000 dead isn't worse off?

I feel that "oh, we don't feel like defending the southern vietnamese anymore, oh and yeah 58,000 confirmed dead." is a total blunder

American and co. total dead: 430,538–714,564
Communist and co. total dead 451,462-1,166,462

Not a waste.
Hmm... Yeah, that looks like a pretty big waste to me
Not anymore than any other wars. Stop being angsty.

Maybe all wars are big waste  ;)
That was my point. Modern day teenagers like to think that they live in a special time where wars now are somehow different than they've been for thousands of years.

The wars fought today ARE different. Are do we still not fire on the enemy after dinner call, do not spread propaganda about eachother, do only a few men die of battle in a year?
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Nipplestockings on February 08, 2013, 10:21:10 pm
Huh?
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on February 08, 2013, 10:39:26 pm
The general sense of warfare has changed a lot during the last hundreds of years. In 1800s, firing on sentries was simply against the rules if there was no attack behind it.

Today, it's ENGAGE THE ENEMY!!!111
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Nipplestockings on February 08, 2013, 11:45:45 pm
Tell me, in the 1800's, when the British fought the Indians, or the Americans fought the Native Americans, did they go by those "rules" for warfare? Nope. Same goes for today. There haven't been many conventional wars between major western powers lately, so we can't judge accurately, but I'd say the UN, the international laws, and the sanctions against powers who commit human rights abuses are pretty similar. The United States is at war with terrorists in Afghanistan, and France is at war with terrorists is Mali. It's the same kind of war that happened in the 1800's when the British fought Indian rebels.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Bluehawk on February 08, 2013, 11:48:47 pm
Whites shot at fellow white sentries and officers all the time. Stop reading your mother's romance novels.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on February 09, 2013, 01:00:03 pm
I'm sorry? Are we going to have a discussion of THAT kind?
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Slick on February 09, 2013, 05:12:30 pm
Not anymore than any other wars. Stop being angsty.

So, every other war that has ever been fought was just as much a waste as the Vietnam war? Okay lol
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: KillerMongoose on February 09, 2013, 06:49:49 pm
How about we get back on topic?
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on February 09, 2013, 07:18:27 pm
Right, you guys want to know a military blunder? The Convention of Alkmaar.

Yeah, We got a combined army of Russians and Brits by the balls...and we let them go peacefully, with all their loot. WHY?
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Tali on February 09, 2013, 07:28:27 pm
Right, you guys want to know a military blunder? The Convention of Alkmaar.

Yeah, We got a combined army of Russians and Brits by the balls...and we let them go peacefully, with all their loot. WHY?

Perhaps the french republic wanted to improve relations with the UK, whom was hell-bent on destroying them and reinstating monarchy.

There's more to war politics then to kill the enemy, y'know.  ::)
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on February 09, 2013, 09:27:17 pm
But having your ally poor and fleetless sounds kinda lame too.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: zizbird55 on February 15, 2013, 12:18:09 am
The third day at Gettysburg. Almost all of Lee's choices snowballed until Pickett's charge failed which is when that snowball hit lee right in the face.

Here is a clip from the movie Gettysburg.

http://youtu.be/hQDAL819oPg
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoblinOverlord on March 02, 2013, 12:05:36 am
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on March 02, 2013, 12:25:43 am
Wellingtons acts during Waterloo the campaign.

I mean, people always tell me how genius he was, and granted, he probably was, but he REALLY messed up at the Waterloo by ordering the Allied army to concentrate on Nivelles, therefor pulling a gap between him and Blucher in which Ney could have marched his part of the French army.
He really was saved by the 2nd Dutch division (which was 55% German, but who cares? ;) ) as they deployed at Quatre-Bras. when he found out he was wrong, he quickly did what was necessary, so I'm sure he was a smart guy after all.

But still, an obvious blunder he completely covered up.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: DeoVindice61 on March 02, 2013, 03:46:36 am
The Battle of Cold Harbor (1864)

The main part of the battle was when Grant ordered a frontal assault on Lee's foritifcation, unfortunately, the union lost around 7 thousand less than an hour. But there were several reports that most of the damage was done under 15 minute. Imagine few thousand men going right into the battle and instantly killed in minutes...   It was Grant's horror, he carried that regret on his shoulder. But that's Civil War, Napoleonic Tactics mixing with rifled guns was a-confusing time. 

On side note, I felt really bad for Lee too, during the battle, Lee lost his another great commander, JEB Stuart at Yellow Tavern. Many people say Gettysburg is the start of the Confederate downfall. But you really notice how desperate and hopeless the war went on after The Wilderness and Cold Harbor....the diaster of Petersburg. Where a Brigade charged a exploded crater in Confederate line, they ended up trapped in the bottom of crater and being gunned down by Confederate suriviors. It was also a blunder for Burnside.  But yeah, War is hell.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoldenEagle on March 02, 2013, 08:29:23 am
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(

The Byzantines was heavily out numbered, they were isolated from rest of the world that meant no fresh food, the Ottomans pushed their boats with their hands, oxes and logs under the boats over the golden horn and then put the boats back into the water again. They had much more advanced artillery. It was just a matter of time. I have seen nowhere a claim of a small gate being left open. If you have sources, can you give me a link?
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoblinOverlord on March 02, 2013, 01:14:37 pm
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(

The Byzantines was heavily out numbered, they were isolated from rest of the world that meant no fresh food, the Ottomans pushed their boats with their hands, oxes and logs under the boats over the golden horn and then put the boats back into the water again. They had much more advanced artillery. It was just a matter of time. I have seen nowhere a claim of a small gate being left open. If you have sources, can you give me a link?

Much more advanced artillery? I hope you don't mean Urban's gun.....   ;)
I have it in a book here (about the kerkaporta), It's called ''Great battles of history''. And here a link, read under ''the final assault'' alinea 3, sentence 2: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars14011600/p/Byzantine-Ottoman-Wars-Fall-Of-Constantinople.htm
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoldenEagle on March 02, 2013, 02:20:18 pm
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(

The Byzantines was heavily out numbered, they were isolated from rest of the world that meant no fresh food, the Ottomans pushed their boats with their hands, oxes and logs under the boats over the golden horn and then put the boats back into the water again. They had much more advanced artillery. It was just a matter of time. I have seen nowhere a claim of a small gate being left open. If you have sources, can you give me a link?

Much more advanced artillery? I hope you don't mean Urban's gun.....   ;)
I have it in a book here (about the kerkaporta), It's called ''Great battles of history''. And here a link, read under ''the final assault'' alinea 3, sentence 2: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars14011600/p/Byzantine-Ottoman-Wars-Fall-Of-Constantinople.htm

Thanks for source

And of course im talking about Urban's gun. He first offered the Byzantines his help, but they rejected, then he asked the Ottomans who accepted his offer, the rest of the story we all know. BUT not only that cannon, the cannons of the Ottomans outranged the Byzantines. Ottomans could just sit back and fire the city to the ground if they wanted to basically
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoblinOverlord on March 02, 2013, 02:25:32 pm
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(

The Byzantines was heavily out numbered, they were isolated from rest of the world that meant no fresh food, the Ottomans pushed their boats with their hands, oxes and logs under the boats over the golden horn and then put the boats back into the water again. They had much more advanced artillery. It was just a matter of time. I have seen nowhere a claim of a small gate being left open. If you have sources, can you give me a link?

Much more advanced artillery? I hope you don't mean Urban's gun.....   ;)
I have it in a book here (about the kerkaporta), It's called ''Great battles of history''. And here a link, read under ''the final assault'' alinea 3, sentence 2: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars14011600/p/Byzantine-Ottoman-Wars-Fall-Of-Constantinople.htm

Thanks for source

And of course im talking about Urban's gun. He first offered the Byzantines his help, but they rejected, then he asked the Ottomans who accepted his offer, the rest of the story we all know. BUT not only that cannon, the cannons of the Ottomans outranged the Byzantines. Ottomans could just sit back and fire the city to the ground if they wanted to basically

They could, but Urban's Gun was really innacurate and could only be fired a few times a day. And the Byzantines were brilliant fortifiers. They could try to repair the walls, which they did. The Byzantines COULD've won ,but the Ottomans would come again and again, and eventually Constantinople would fall anyway.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoldenEagle on March 02, 2013, 04:25:57 pm
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(

The Byzantines was heavily out numbered, they were isolated from rest of the world that meant no fresh food, the Ottomans pushed their boats with their hands, oxes and logs under the boats over the golden horn and then put the boats back into the water again. They had much more advanced artillery. It was just a matter of time. I have seen nowhere a claim of a small gate being left open. If you have sources, can you give me a link?

Much more advanced artillery? I hope you don't mean Urban's gun.....   ;)
I have it in a book here (about the kerkaporta), It's called ''Great battles of history''. And here a link, read under ''the final assault'' alinea 3, sentence 2: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars14011600/p/Byzantine-Ottoman-Wars-Fall-Of-Constantinople.htm

Thanks for source

And of course im talking about Urban's gun. He first offered the Byzantines his help, but they rejected, then he asked the Ottomans who accepted his offer, the rest of the story we all know. BUT not only that cannon, the cannons of the Ottomans outranged the Byzantines. Ottomans could just sit back and fire the city to the ground if they wanted to basically

They could, but Urban's Gun was really innacurate and could only be fired a few times a day. And the Byzantines were brilliant fortifiers. They could try to repair the walls, which they did. The Byzantines COULD've won ,but the Ottomans would come again and again, and eventually Constantinople would fall anyway.

Thats why they bring alot of soldiers I guess...............
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoblinOverlord on March 02, 2013, 04:44:52 pm
Spoiler
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(

The Byzantines was heavily out numbered, they were isolated from rest of the world that meant no fresh food, the Ottomans pushed their boats with their hands, oxes and logs under the boats over the golden horn and then put the boats back into the water again. They had much more advanced artillery. It was just a matter of time. I have seen nowhere a claim of a small gate being left open. If you have sources, can you give me a link?

Much more advanced artillery? I hope you don't mean Urban's gun.....   ;)
I have it in a book here (about the kerkaporta), It's called ''Great battles of history''. And here a link, read under ''the final assault'' alinea 3, sentence 2: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars14011600/p/Byzantine-Ottoman-Wars-Fall-Of-Constantinople.htm

Thanks for source

And of course im talking about Urban's gun. He first offered the Byzantines his help, but they rejected, then he asked the Ottomans who accepted his offer, the rest of the story we all know. BUT not only that cannon, the cannons of the Ottomans outranged the Byzantines. Ottomans could just sit back and fire the city to the ground if they wanted to basically

They could, but Urban's Gun was really innacurate and could only be fired a few times a day. And the Byzantines were brilliant fortifiers. They could try to repair the walls, which they did. The Byzantines COULD've won ,but the Ottomans would come again and again, and eventually Constantinople would fall anyway.

Thats why they bring alot of soldiers I guess...............
[close]

Heh, yeah indeed. It all went wrong after Manzikert. Do you know another blunder? Hattin perhaps?
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Ililsa on March 02, 2013, 05:39:08 pm
Not exactly a military act, but it was a precursor to the American Civil War, so The Harper's Ferry Raid.

Basically doomed from the outset; the plan was to cause slave rebellions over the south, then lead them into the mountains and arm them with pikes.
Yes. Pikes.

In the end, of course, the raid was an utter disaster, which is what happens when you're lead by a charismatic but militarily hopeless religious bandit. They even managed to succeed in shooting a freed slave, but they had some grand plans, even took George Washington's great-grandnephew hostage and made him surrender Washington's sword to them.

In the end though, things turned into a hostage situation, and who turns up, but Robert E. Lee and the then Lieutenant J.E.B. Stuart with the militia and US Marines in full dress. When no surrender came, the Marines stormed the engine house the abolitionists were holed up in with their hostages, already given orders not to fire any shots in case the hostages were wounded, they bayoneted the abolitionists within, John Brown was attacked by the Marine Lieutenant Israel Greene, and this is where things get interesting.

Greene, given the Marines orders to be in full dress, only had a flimsy dress sword with him. He managed to injure Brown, but couldn't kill him, and at some point his sword bent double. Subsequently Brown was captured and subject to trial, which naturally, didn't go well for him since he was hanged.

The possibility is that if he had died in the engine house, the North would never have perceived him as a martyr, which outraged the south. Not saying the civil war wouldn't have happened, but it would be one less cause for tension.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on March 02, 2013, 06:25:11 pm
A sword bent double? Even for a dress sword that sounds utterly ridiculous. It might break, but certainly not BENT.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoldenEagle on March 02, 2013, 06:31:58 pm
Spoiler
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(

The Byzantines was heavily out numbered, they were isolated from rest of the world that meant no fresh food, the Ottomans pushed their boats with their hands, oxes and logs under the boats over the golden horn and then put the boats back into the water again. They had much more advanced artillery. It was just a matter of time. I have seen nowhere a claim of a small gate being left open. If you have sources, can you give me a link?

Much more advanced artillery? I hope you don't mean Urban's gun.....   ;)
I have it in a book here (about the kerkaporta), It's called ''Great battles of history''. And here a link, read under ''the final assault'' alinea 3, sentence 2: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars14011600/p/Byzantine-Ottoman-Wars-Fall-Of-Constantinople.htm

Thanks for source

And of course im talking about Urban's gun. He first offered the Byzantines his help, but they rejected, then he asked the Ottomans who accepted his offer, the rest of the story we all know. BUT not only that cannon, the cannons of the Ottomans outranged the Byzantines. Ottomans could just sit back and fire the city to the ground if they wanted to basically

They could, but Urban's Gun was really innacurate and could only be fired a few times a day. And the Byzantines were brilliant fortifiers. They could try to repair the walls, which they did. The Byzantines COULD've won ,but the Ottomans would come again and again, and eventually Constantinople would fall anyway.

Thats why they bring alot of soldiers I guess...............
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Heh, yeah indeed. It all went wrong after Manzikert. Do you know another blunder? Hattin perhaps?

Im sorry, never heard of that battle before  :-\
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on March 02, 2013, 06:46:34 pm
Spoiler
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(

The Byzantines was heavily out numbered, they were isolated from rest of the world that meant no fresh food, the Ottomans pushed their boats with their hands, oxes and logs under the boats over the golden horn and then put the boats back into the water again. They had much more advanced artillery. It was just a matter of time. I have seen nowhere a claim of a small gate being left open. If you have sources, can you give me a link?

Much more advanced artillery? I hope you don't mean Urban's gun.....   ;)
I have it in a book here (about the kerkaporta), It's called ''Great battles of history''. And here a link, read under ''the final assault'' alinea 3, sentence 2: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars14011600/p/Byzantine-Ottoman-Wars-Fall-Of-Constantinople.htm

Thanks for source

And of course im talking about Urban's gun. He first offered the Byzantines his help, but they rejected, then he asked the Ottomans who accepted his offer, the rest of the story we all know. BUT not only that cannon, the cannons of the Ottomans outranged the Byzantines. Ottomans could just sit back and fire the city to the ground if they wanted to basically

They could, but Urban's Gun was really innacurate and could only be fired a few times a day. And the Byzantines were brilliant fortifiers. They could try to repair the walls, which they did. The Byzantines COULD've won ,but the Ottomans would come again and again, and eventually Constantinople would fall anyway.

Thats why they bring alot of soldiers I guess...............
[close]

Heh, yeah indeed. It all went wrong after Manzikert. Do you know another blunder? Hattin perhaps?

Im sorry, never heard of that battle before  :-\

It was a battle during the Crusades, where the Crusaders got sincerely beaten by Saladin. It's 'famous' because its aftermath is shown in 'Kingdom of Heaven'. It was more of a genius victory for Saladin then a utter blunder for the Crusasders, though.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoldenEagle on March 02, 2013, 07:32:06 pm
Spoiler
Definately, DEFINATELY the Byzantine blunder in the defence of Constantinople. Someone left a small gate (Kerkaporta) open through which the Ottomans rushed in and opened more gates. The Byzantines got overwhelmed. They could've won, but there are the small mistakes in battles that can tip the balance.  :'(

The Byzantines was heavily out numbered, they were isolated from rest of the world that meant no fresh food, the Ottomans pushed their boats with their hands, oxes and logs under the boats over the golden horn and then put the boats back into the water again. They had much more advanced artillery. It was just a matter of time. I have seen nowhere a claim of a small gate being left open. If you have sources, can you give me a link?

Much more advanced artillery? I hope you don't mean Urban's gun.....   ;)
I have it in a book here (about the kerkaporta), It's called ''Great battles of history''. And here a link, read under ''the final assault'' alinea 3, sentence 2: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars14011600/p/Byzantine-Ottoman-Wars-Fall-Of-Constantinople.htm

Thanks for source

And of course im talking about Urban's gun. He first offered the Byzantines his help, but they rejected, then he asked the Ottomans who accepted his offer, the rest of the story we all know. BUT not only that cannon, the cannons of the Ottomans outranged the Byzantines. Ottomans could just sit back and fire the city to the ground if they wanted to basically

They could, but Urban's Gun was really innacurate and could only be fired a few times a day. And the Byzantines were brilliant fortifiers. They could try to repair the walls, which they did. The Byzantines COULD've won ,but the Ottomans would come again and again, and eventually Constantinople would fall anyway.

Thats why they bring alot of soldiers I guess...............
[close]

Heh, yeah indeed. It all went wrong after Manzikert. Do you know another blunder? Hattin perhaps?

Im sorry, never heard of that battle before  :-\

It was a battle during the Crusades, where the Crusaders got sincerely beaten by Saladin. It's 'famous' because its aftermath is shown in 'Kingdom of Heaven'. It was more of a genius victory for Saladin then a utter blunder for the Crusasders, though.

Ah interesting. I will check that movie out  ;)
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Ililsa on March 02, 2013, 07:32:27 pm
A sword bent double? Even for a dress sword that sounds utterly ridiculous. It might break, but certainly not BENT.

Greene wrote: "Instinctively as Brown fell I gave him a saber thrust in the left breast. The sword I carried was a light uniform weapon, and, either not having a point or striking something hard in Brown's accouterments, did not penetrate. The blade bent double."
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on March 02, 2013, 07:40:46 pm
In that case, I wonder why he decided to go to battle with a sabre obviously not meant for fighting.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Ililsa on March 02, 2013, 07:44:09 pm
Seems to be because of the order that the Marines appear in full dress, perhaps the order included the swords, or Greene just interpreted it that way.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoblinOverlord on March 02, 2013, 07:45:56 pm
Of course Hattin was a military blunder of the Crusaders. They went into the desert with thirsty and tired troops, without a good water supply. At the battle the main Christian force went past the rearguard and marched to the nearest water (they didn't succeed ofcourse). The knights charged against lightly armed horse archers, who quickly outran them and peppered them with arrows. This defeat gave Saladin a free path to Jerusalem.  :)
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on March 02, 2013, 08:58:12 pm
Which was exactly what Saladin had planned all along.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Praetorian on March 02, 2013, 09:46:05 pm
The failure of Admiral Nagumo to send in the  third wave into Pearl Harbor to destroy the fuel dumps and other infastructure which was very important to the Pacific Fleet.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: TheBoberton on March 09, 2013, 06:51:09 am
The Battle of Karánsebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes)

It may have never happened, but if it did..

"The hussars refused to give them any of the schnapps, and while still drunk, they set up makeshift fortifications around the barrels."
They obviously had their priorities in order here.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Noodlenrice on March 09, 2013, 10:34:02 am
The Battle of Karánsebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes)

It may have never happened, but if it did..

Lol wtf were they thinking dear god they were acting soooo...... Stupid but I guess that's wat happens when an army is full of different ethnicities . 

Mine if the infamous battle line gap at chickamagua cause that is miscommunication at its finest.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: GoblinOverlord on March 09, 2013, 12:18:17 pm
The Battle of Karánsebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes)

It may have never happened, but if it did..

"The hussars refused to give them any of the schnapps, and while still drunk, they set up makeshift fortifications around the barrels."
They obviously had their priorities in order here.

Maybe the greatest blunder of them all here......  :o
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Jocam on March 10, 2013, 11:44:04 am
I dont know the name of the battle, though i recall an anglo-zulu war battle, in which the british CO made some terrible mistakes, suchas:

Splitting his forces, the greater part going after (what he thought) the bulk of zulu forces, and the other half making camp in a valley, surrounded by hills.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Jelly on March 14, 2013, 07:33:20 pm
The Battle of Islandlwana; Chelmsford failed to strategically defend his encampment, and payed the price. The British had difficulty unpacking their ammunition boxes fast enough and that the quartermasters were reluctant to distribute ammunition to units other than their own. The perimeter that the British troops had to defend was too large.
Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F34%2FIsandhlwana.jpg%2F800px-Isandhlwana.jpg&hash=2bc3da1e1e3d238276435a39fc064849190e9b42)
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Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Gokiller on March 14, 2013, 08:31:55 pm
Well you could say it was a militairy blunder, though the Zulu strategic was succesfull, and would, and should get credit for the victory. Also the Zulu's just outnumbered them with far to much. So if you can speak of a militairy blunder? Perhaps.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on March 14, 2013, 08:36:18 pm
the entire essence of militairy strategies lies on exploiting the mistakes your enemies make. In other words, the victor wasn't the guy with the best strategy, but who made the fewest mistakes.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: joer5835 on March 15, 2013, 02:13:50 pm
"Never interrupt an enemy when he is making  a misstake"
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Duuring on March 15, 2013, 02:30:08 pm
"Never interrupt an enemy when he is making  a misstake"
-Napoleon Bonaparte

Pretty much sums it up.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Justo on March 16, 2013, 04:16:07 pm
North Korea's billion dollar firework has to win the prize.
Title: Re: Historical Military Blunders
Post by: Archduke Sven on March 17, 2013, 02:10:01 pm
I say Braddock's Expedition, a large column of British regulars 44th and 48th Foot with about 500 additional militia trying to capture the French fortress Duquesne led by Edward Braddock and his ADC George Washington were utterly destroyed in an encounter approx 300-900 French and Indians ( Moderate estimate is 400 ).

The British and French actually met each other and were equally surprised to met each other, but while the British went into panic the Indians  effectively surrounded the column on the road with smart skirmishing while the French advanced in lines down the main road, the confused British who only knew how to stand in line started to fire on their American allies who were taking cover and were thus mistaken for enemies.

After some hours, General Braddock was killed and Washington managed to form a rear guard to protect the survivors.

British casualties out of 1300: 978 Casualties whereof 456 dead.
French & Allied casualties : 40  ( Most likely more )