Pilots didnt die, they managed to evacuate before the crash.
Pilots didnt die, they managed to evacuate before the crash.
Pilots didnt die, they managed to evacuate before the crash.
Well they were shot according to a turkmen brigadier (TURKMEN, not turk!)
Pilots didnt die, they managed to evacuate before the crash.
Well they were shot according to a turkmen brigadier (TURKMEN, not turk!). Two turkish F16 shot down the bomber, turkmen fighters shot the pilots. And no it is not a warcrime as the turkmen are fighting against the Assad regime while Russia supports Assad
Can you please bitch another place?
Was the pilot killed by the Turks or the Syrian akbars? I heard one Russian soldier was killed in a rescue operation after the shootdown. What about the second pilot? Are they both dead?one is alive, the second disappeared
There's a video of a guy with Russian pilot gear lying dead as the guys around shout allahu akbar, so I think it's impossible that he is alive.source?
those moslims and their godliness. allahu ackbar means "we got him heh heh"I'm sick of your trolling! This is serious! This is world war three!!!! You're not keeping calm minds!!!!
There's a video of a guy with Russian pilot gear lying dead as the guys around shout allahu akbar, so I think it's impossible that he is alive.source?
Damn!There's a video of a guy with Russian pilot gear lying dead as the guys around shout allahu akbar, so I think it's impossible that he is alive.source?SpoilerPilots being shot while paradroppingSpoilerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0dYA3PO7Nw[close]Spoilerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snI7BHv7zjM[close]
Russian helicopter hit by TOW during rescue mission the same daySpoilerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKE9az3MdmA[close][close]
wow I didn't know Russia was only in Turkeys airspace for such a short amount of time. But they still doesn't explain why the pilots didn't respond to Turkeys warnings. Unless there really were no warnings?Damn!There's a video of a guy with Russian pilot gear lying dead as the guys around shout allahu akbar, so I think it's impossible that he is alive.source?SpoilerPilots being shot while paradroppingSpoilerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0dYA3PO7Nw[close]Spoilerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snI7BHv7zjM[close]
Russian helicopter hit by TOW during rescue mission the same daySpoilerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKE9az3MdmA[close][close]
I bet Turkeys gonna get a load of shit for this, seeing how well it turned out.Pretty excessive if you ask me
Map of the flight path:Points for handling of the situation: 0/10 - evaluate consequences firstSpoiler(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fichef-1.bbci.co.uk%2Fnews%2F624%2Fcpsprodpb%2F141C7%2Fproduction%2F_86857328_russian_plane_shot_down_624.png&hash=b95071ac9948b8bd5b5288a5062045c12ebdfde9)[close]
wow I didn't know Russia was only in Turkeys airspace for such a short amount of time. But they still doesn't explain why the pilots didn't respond to Turkeys warnings. Unless there really were no warnings?Maybe they didnt think, that Turkey would actually shoot them down, as Russia has been in other countries' airspace many times before, and just escorted back
The Russian planes still should have responded.wow I didn't know Russia was only in Turkeys airspace for such a short amount of time. But they still doesn't explain why the pilots didn't respond to Turkeys warnings. Unless there really were no warnings?Maybe they didnt think, that Turkey would actually shoot them down, as Russia has been in other countries' airspace many times before, and just escorted back
I just want to say it's really sickening what became of the 2 pilots. Shooting another country's plane down from the sky while unprovoked is extreme in and of itself, shooting down the 2 pilots trying to just survive in a foreign country is completely barbaric. Then destroying the people sent to rescue them and repatriate them back is just awful.
Before I get bombarded for "kremlin troll", imagine if this were to happen in, say, Islamabad when Seal Team 6 went in to kill Bin Laden. Imagine Pakistan, a USA ally, shot down their helicopters, killed the crew, then destroyed the rescue team trying to rescue said crew. It's the same thing really, and barbaric no matter how you look at it.
I'm not much of a fan of politics, but when even just basic human dignity and respect are downtrodden, it's time to reconsider who you call your "Friends".
But they still doesn't explain why the pilots didn't respond to Turkeys warnings. Unless there really were no warnings?
Have you heard if those two pilots demise?
Yep they are pretty dead, at least thats what i heard from news
Also, whoever the person was saying that it is a war crime to shoot downed pilots when at peace, but that the Turkmen rebels didn't commit a war crime by firing on the pilot because they are at war, you are categorically wrong. For it to be a war crime you have to be at war, and it is always considered a war crime to kill ejecting pilots whether they are parachuting down or have landed on the ground. The only time you can kill someone in a parachute in war is if they are an armed paratrooper, else you're committing a war crime.
Also, whoever the person was saying that it is a war crime to shoot downed pilots when at peace, but that the Turkmen rebels didn't commit a war crime by firing on the pilot because they are at war, you are categorically wrong. For it to be a war crime you have to be at war, and it is always considered a war crime to kill ejecting pilots whether they are parachuting down or have landed on the ground. The only time you can kill someone in a parachute in war is if they are an armed paratrooper, else you're committing a war crime.
I do not think that any of the parties involved in the Syrian war really care about war crimes.
God I swear, Americans are probably the least informed about world events. I didnt know half of this stuff :PGood guy Fox News and CNN
Do polish media lie? :Pone is still alive, the second one is unknown
Because they stated that its positive two pilots had died
Probably because the plane wasn't shot until it was 2-3 kilometers inside Syrian airspace.I mean can we extrapolate how far away the Turkish plane would have been when it fired? Given that the Russian jet was flying away from it, presumably it would have taken a while for the missile to reach it? It may be that it was still in Syrian airspace, but I'm just wondering, as it's such an extreme course of action to take if the Russian jet was leaving the airspace.
but I'm just wondering, as it's such an extreme course of action to take if the Russian jet was leaving the airspace.
Probably because the plane wasn't shot until it was 2-3 kilometers inside Syrian airspace.I mean can we extrapolate how far away the Turkish plane would have been when it fired? Given that the Russian jet was flying away from it, presumably it would have taken a while for the missile to reach it? It may be that it was still in Syrian airspace, but I'm just wondering, as it's such an extreme course of action to take if the Russian jet was leaving the airspace.
p
One is death(pretty sure) and the other one is unknown, but maybe death.
That Erdogan guy is very shady...
Turkey is obviously lying. Sukhoi 24 can fly at 2300 kilometres per hour, which means that they could cross those 3 kilometres in a few seconds. For them to cross it in 17 seconds, they would have had to fly roughly around 700km/h. Why would they do that considering that they were allegedly warned by Turkey?
According to the document sent to the UN by Turkey, they crossed even less than 3 kilometers, so flight speed would have been even slower.
Moreover, if they started warning 5 minutes BEFORE they crossed the border:
- SU 24 were still far from the border.
- They couldn't predict their intentions.
[Stuff]
1. Your remark regarding speed is a sophism. You don't fly at low speed either, and certainly not under such circumstances. Please tell me the exact speed of a sukhoi su 24 crossing this small band of territory in 17 seconds.Turkey is obviously lying. Sukhoi 24 can fly at 2300 kilometres per hour, which means that they could cross those 3 kilometres in a few seconds. For them to cross it in 17 seconds, they would have had to fly roughly around 700km/h. Why would they do that considering that they were allegedly warned by Turkey?
According to the document sent to the UN by Turkey, they crossed even less than 3 kilometers, so flight speed would have been even slower.
Moreover, if they started warning 5 minutes BEFORE they crossed the border:
- SU 24 were still far from the border.
- They couldn't predict their intentions.
If you had looked at the radar you would have notice that the Su24 had been flying directly towards the turkish border for a few minutes so the warnings were right. And if you had studied at least a bit about warfare you would have noticed that you don't fly on maximumspeed during combat. You also ask why they would do that after being warned. If they really got the warning and still flew through turkish airspace Turkey had every right to shoot them down, the speed of the jet does not affect this right.
Turkey had warned to shoot down any foreign military aircraft on their territory on October 8th. It is common practice to warn military vehicles even before they reach the border to give them enough time to turn around.
Fact is for now:
The Russian jet entered turkish airspace even after being warned several times.
Two Turkish F16s shot down the Jet which then crashed on syrian territory. It is unclear where exactly the shots werefired.
One Russian pilot is dead, the other's location is unclear.
1. Your remark regarding speed is a sophism. You don't fly at low speed either, and certainly not under such circumstances. Please tell me the exact speed of a sukhoi su 24 crossing this small band of territory in 17 seconds.Turkey is obviously lying. Sukhoi 24 can fly at 2300 kilometres per hour, which means that they could cross those 3 kilometres in a few seconds. For them to cross it in 17 seconds, they would have had to fly roughly around 700km/h. Why would they do that considering that they were allegedly warned by Turkey?
According to the document sent to the UN by Turkey, they crossed even less than 3 kilometers, so flight speed would have been even slower.
Moreover, if they started warning 5 minutes BEFORE they crossed the border:
- SU 24 were still far from the border.
- They couldn't predict their intentions.
If you had looked at the radar you would have notice that the Su24 had been flying directly towards the turkish border for a few minutes so the warnings were right. And if you had studied at least a bit about warfare you would have noticed that you don't fly on maximumspeed during combat. You also ask why they would do that after being warned. If they really got the warning and still flew through turkish airspace Turkey had every right to shoot them down, the speed of the jet does not affect this right.
Turkey had warned to shoot down any foreign military aircraft on their territory on October 8th. It is common practice to warn military vehicles even before they reach the border to give them enough time to turn around.
Fact is for now:
The Russian jet entered turkish airspace even after being warned several times.
Two Turkish F16s shot down the Jet which then crashed on syrian territory. It is unclear where exactly the shots werefired.
One Russian pilot is dead, the other's location is unclear.
2. Please tell us the distance and fly time between the Russian airbase and the Turkish border. Also tell us when exactly they should have warned the plane and we will study your assertion with proper data.
3. You are too young to compare your level of studies to mine. I suggest that you keep you refrain from ad hominem attacks.
(https://i.imgur.com/gVJPG3e.jpg)
Buried comment on Reddit:
World War One:
Turkey fails at being an Empire, causing the Balkans to get all uppity and Bosnia to go over to Austria. The Bosnians and Serbs get bored and shoot an Austrian Prince, Russia supports the Slavs, thus Turkey and Russia lead to a world war
World War Two:
The Turks invade Europe, and in prolonged wars against the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, exhaust it. This leads to the dastardly Swedes doing the deluge whilst Poland is weakened by the Turks, and the PLC eventually collapses. Three powers, including Russia partition Poland. After the defeat of Germany, Poland is restored but by now Germany is used to owning a good chunk of Poland, and Russia wants in too, and as such the actions of Turkey and Russia once again lead to a world war.
World War Three:
Turkey shoots down a Russian jet and for the third time lead to a...
I found this comment interesting. What do you guys think will be the outcome of this?
1. Your remark regarding speed is a sophism. You don't fly at low speed either, and certainly not under such circumstances. Please tell me the exact speed of a sukhoi su 24 crossing this small band of territory in 17 seconds.Turkey is obviously lying. Sukhoi 24 can fly at 2300 kilometres per hour, which means that they could cross those 3 kilometres in a few seconds. For them to cross it in 17 seconds, they would have had to fly roughly around 700km/h. Why would they do that considering that they were allegedly warned by Turkey?
According to the document sent to the UN by Turkey, they crossed even less than 3 kilometers, so flight speed would have been even slower.
Moreover, if they started warning 5 minutes BEFORE they crossed the border:
- SU 24 were still far from the border.
- They couldn't predict their intentions.
If you had looked at the radar you would have notice that the Su24 had been flying directly towards the turkish border for a few minutes so the warnings were right. And if you had studied at least a bit about warfare you would have noticed that you don't fly on maximumspeed during combat. You also ask why they would do that after being warned. If they really got the warning and still flew through turkish airspace Turkey had every right to shoot them down, the speed of the jet does not affect this right.
Turkey had warned to shoot down any foreign military aircraft on their territory on October 8th. It is common practice to warn military vehicles even before they reach the border to give them enough time to turn around.
Fact is for now:
The Russian jet entered turkish airspace even after being warned several times.
Two Turkish F16s shot down the Jet which then crashed on syrian territory. It is unclear where exactly the shots werefired.
One Russian pilot is dead, the other's location is unclear.
2. Please tell us the distance and fly time between the Russian airbase and the Turkish border. Also tell us when exactly they should have warned the plane and we will study your assertion with proper data.
3. You are too young to compare your level of studies to mine. I suggest that you keep you refrain from ad hominem attacks.
1. Your remark regarding speed is a sophism. You don't fly at low speed either, and certainly not under such circumstances. Please tell me the exact speed of a sukhoi su 24 crossing this small band of territory in 17 seconds.Turkey is obviously lying. Sukhoi 24 can fly at 2300 kilometres per hour, which means that they could cross those 3 kilometres in a few seconds. For them to cross it in 17 seconds, they would have had to fly roughly around 700km/h. Why would they do that considering that they were allegedly warned by Turkey?
According to the document sent to the UN by Turkey, they crossed even less than 3 kilometers, so flight speed would have been even slower.
Moreover, if they started warning 5 minutes BEFORE they crossed the border:
- SU 24 were still far from the border.
- They couldn't predict their intentions.
If you had looked at the radar you would have notice that the Su24 had been flying directly towards the turkish border for a few minutes so the warnings were right. And if you had studied at least a bit about warfare you would have noticed that you don't fly on maximumspeed during combat. You also ask why they would do that after being warned. If they really got the warning and still flew through turkish airspace Turkey had every right to shoot them down, the speed of the jet does not affect this right.
Turkey had warned to shoot down any foreign military aircraft on their territory on October 8th. It is common practice to warn military vehicles even before they reach the border to give them enough time to turn around.
Fact is for now:
The Russian jet entered turkish airspace even after being warned several times.
Two Turkish F16s shot down the Jet which then crashed on syrian territory. It is unclear where exactly the shots werefired.
One Russian pilot is dead, the other's location is unclear.
2. Please tell us the distance and fly time between the Russian airbase and the Turkish border. Also tell us when exactly they should have warned the plane and we will study your assertion with proper data.
3. You are too young to compare your level of studies to mine. I suggest that you keep you refrain from ad hominem attacks.
Ok I've just finished lunch and got my maths right. According to this radarSpoiler(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fichef.bbci.co.uk%2Fnews%2F624%2Fcpsprodpb%2F06EE%2Fproduction%2F_86847710_4244121f-6f25-419b-a113-d94603724eeb.jpg&hash=8cd7094f3112ff7dc1fb43e0e21528e7ea45449c)[close]
and after having checked two maps for reference you can say that the jet crossed approximateley 3.5 to 4km of turkish airspace. In order to cross this territory, the Su24 had to fly 3500/17*3.6 = 741km/h (4000/17*3.6 = 847 km/h if you take the 4km or 526.3 MPH for the more US based persons here). The highest speed possible for a Suchoi Su24 is Mach 2,18.
Not calculated into this is a possible climb that may have been performed by the pilots, requiring a faster speed in order to cross this 3.5 to 4km in 17 seconds.
I honestly don't know from which airbase the aircraft started, how long it took the jet to aquire it's needed heigth and how long the whole mission had taken until that time. It still is common practice to warn military aircrafts at least 5-6min before they reach the border, giving them time to turn around. There still needs to be a quite large timeframe in order to have enough time to get the two F16s in the air, what normally is initiated when the first warning is spoken. Give me some time to calculate the time it took the jet to reach the border.
I will still need some time to figure a Su24's stall speed out, but you are able to fly easily with 741 - 847 km/h (A normal, much heavier plane like the Boeing 747-300 flies at 910km/h travelspeed with 377.000 kg! A Su24 only has 36.000 kg!!!). It also is more comfortable for the pilot to stay under Mach 1,0 as the body is not pressed into the seat then. And yes, aircrafts usually do not fly on highest speed when fighting groundtargets as you don't have enough time to use your weapons properly against groundtargets when on fullspeed and also are heavily pressed into your seat when on fullspeed.
PS: The one not providing any necessary proof for his assertion is you; please refrain from posting before having calculated anything, thanks.po
Spoiler(https://i.imgur.com/Qllk7k1.png)[close]
Why in Gods name would Russia arm the Kurds?
Spoiler(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/s2048x2048/12291758_10156266918690483_6867678839258836179_o.png?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)[close]
Spoiler(https://i.imgur.com/Qllk7k1.png)[close]
Why in Gods name would Russia arm the Kurds?
Because it would be the biggest thing to act against Turkey short of actually attacking them, proxy wars are the classic Major Power move.
Ted's math hurt my head I forgot that * meant x lmao
and after having checked two maps for reference you can say that the jet crossed approximateley 3.5 to 4km of turkish airspace. In order to cross this territory, the Su24 had to fly 3500/17*3.6 = 741km/h (4000/17*3.6 = 847 km/h if you take the 4km or 526.3 MPH for the more US based persons here). The highest speed possible for a Suchoi Su24 is Mach 2,18.1. You didn't provided any more "proof" than I did. And I must stress that the media provided all the necessary evidences, including those that you dismissed.
Not calculated into this is a possible climb that may have been performed by the pilots, requiring a faster speed in order to cross this 3.5 to 4km in 17 seconds.
I honestly don't know from which airbase the aircraft started, how long it took the jet to aquire it's needed heigth and how long the whole mission had taken until that time. It still is common practice to warn military aircrafts at least 5-6min before they reach the border, giving them time to turn around. There still needs to be a quite large timeframe in order to have enough time to get the two F16s in the air, what normally is initiated when the first warning is spoken. Give me some time to calculate the time it took the jet to reach the border.
I will still need some time to figure a Su24's stall speed out, but you are able to fly easily with 741 - 847 km/h (A normal, much heavier plane like the Boeing 747-300 flies at 910km/h travelspeed with 377.000 kg! A Su24 only has 36.000 kg!!!). It also is more comfortable for the pilot to stay under Mach 1,0 as the body is not pressed into the seat then. And yes, aircrafts usually do not fly on highest speed when fighting groundtargets as you don't have enough time to use your weapons properly against groundtargets when on fullspeed and also are heavily pressed into your seat when on fullspeed.
PS: The one not providing any necessary proof for his assertion is you; please refrain from posting before having calculated anything, thanks.
Currently, Kurds and Russian forces are fighting in different parts of Syria. Multiple news sources tells that a major leader from Peshmerga forces have shown interest in closer co-operation with Russia.
Turkey is obviously lying. Sukhoi 24 can fly at 2300 kilometres per hour, which means that they could cross those 3 kilometres in a few seconds. For them to cross it in 17 seconds, they would have had to fly roughly around 700km/h. Why would they do that considering that they were allegedly warned by Turkey?
According to the document sent to the UN by Turkey, they crossed even less than 3 kilometers, so flight speed would have been even slower.
Moreover, if they started warning 5 minutes BEFORE they crossed the border:
- SU 24 were still far from the border.
- They couldn't predict their intentions.
Ted's math hurt my head I forgot that * meant x lmao
his math was literally 3 operations.
There's multiple sources on optimal commercial aircraft cruising altitudes being around 28,000 - 33,000 feet and higher for efficient fuel consumption.You said 2.19km but Turks said "a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length". Basically, it means that they moved on 1.15 miles inside, which represented a "depth" of 1.36 miles from the southern border. 1.15 miles = 1.8 kilometers. So this is even slower and corresponds, as I said, to roughly 300 km/h. "Unusally slow" would be more than a euphemism.
http://www.fearofflyingphobia.com/flysohigh.html
In terms of military aircraft I am less knowledgeable but apparently the SU-24 was designed for lengthy low altitude cruising according to wiki and Sukhoi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-24
No optimal or min alt is given for cruising though.
In regards to the manpad your source claims that the min altitude that is safe to fly is 4.5km it seems. I was under the impression stingers had twice that range? Your source also quotes the Syrian army stating that the stingers where captured from their own forces so they should know roughly how many are in circulation or have been in circulation.
In terms of aircraft speed the SU24 won't stall at 700km/h. Whether it was flying at that speed I don't know as I am not sure what their minimum combat speed is for ground operations. 2.19km / 17 * 60 * 60 however places the plane at unusually low speeds.
I should point out though that the faster you go prior to a combat run the longer it takes to turn. The airport alone is apprx 50km away. Flying at 700km/h would result in getting back within 4 minutes and 14 seconds so its not a slow speed. No point going supersonic if you need to slow down and turn at a moments notice then line up with the target. The biggest evidence that we have that it wasn't going supersonic is that its wings weren't folded back.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331558/Turkey-shoots-fighter-jet-Syrian-border-Local-media-footage-flaming-plane-crashing-trees.html
Does it matter whether a Stinger would have been able to destroy a fighter jet, or not? Fact is, that it was shot down by the Turkish Airforce.We were talking about stingers and manpads in general because you can fly at low altitudes when you know that there is no risk. At the beginning of the war the Syrians were fighting at very low altitude with their Albatros and were even bombing with helicopters. But now they just can't. So if we want to determine the altitude, and consequently the speed, we must discuss this risk.
You said 2.19km but Turks said "a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length". Basically, it means that they moved on 1.15 miles inside, which represented a "depth" of 1.36 miles from the southern border. 1.15 miles = 1.8 kilometers. So this is even slower and corresponds, as I said, to roughly 300 km/h. "Unusally slow" would be more than a euphemism.
So I'm not sure that the unfolded wings prove anything. At which speed do they usually unfold? Moreover, the plane was apparently getting up, and not down, so it's very well possible that the pilots unfolded after the hit as they tried to keep flying.
As for the stingers, apparently you saw the "range" which is different from the altitude. The max altitude of the stinger is 3500 meters.
See there:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/united_states_american_missile_system_vehicle_uk/stinger_fim-92_fim-92a_man_portable_air_defense_missile_system_manpads_technical_data_sheet_picture.html
Otherwise the MH17 could have been destroyed by any Russian manpad.
You said 2.19km but Turks said "a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length". Basically, it means that they moved on 1.15 miles inside, which represented a "depth" of 1.36 miles from the southern border. 1.15 miles = 1.8 kilometers. So this is even slower and corresponds, as I said, to roughly 300 km/h. "Unusally slow" would be more than a euphemism.
Oh, my bad. He is a leader of a Kurd party which fights in Syria.Currently, Kurds and Russian forces are fighting in different parts of Syria. Multiple news sources tells that a major leader from Peshmerga forces have shown interest in closer co-operation with Russia.
Peshmerga are Iraqi Kurds.
You said 2.19km but Turks said "a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length". Basically, it means that they moved on 1.15 miles inside, which represented a "depth" of 1.36 miles from the southern border. 1.15 miles = 1.8 kilometers. So this is even slower and corresponds, as I said, to roughly 300 km/h. "Unusally slow" would be more than a euphemism.
I still don't understand what they would mean precisely by "length" and "depth". For me "length" is the distance.
You said 2.19km but Turks said "a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length". Basically, it means that they moved on 1.15 miles inside, which represented a "depth" of 1.36 miles from the southern border. 1.15 miles = 1.8 kilometers. So this is even slower and corresponds, as I said, to roughly 300 km/h. "Unusally slow" would be more than a euphemism.
I don't really understand what you meant with that.
To me it means that the Plane descended/ascended 2.18Km on a distance of 1.85Km. On a 2D Map that would obviously look like the plane only traveled 1.85Km, making its travel speed hillariously low.
But if it actually traveled a distance of 2.87Km, then it must have traveled at 607Km/h which makes sense. That is a normal speed.I still don't understand what they would mean precisely by "length" and "depth". For me "length" is the distance.
Lenght is the distance on the 2D map and Depth is the height difference that the plane traveled.
Lenght is the distance on the 2D map and Depth is the height difference that the plane traveled.Height difference? I guess that you mean the actual distance travelled in the air (the "3D" distance if we can call it like that). Then the actual distance is 1.36 miles, and the actual speed is the one provided by Rejenorst (around 400 km/h). In both cases, that is clearly not realistic. You might as well send an Albatros.
Quote from: OlafsonLenght is the distance on the 2D map and Depth is the height difference that the plane traveled.Height difference? I guess that you mean the actual distance travelled in the air (the "3D" distance if we can call it like that). Then the actual distance is 1.36 miles, and the actual speed is the one provided by Rejenorst (around 400 km/h). In both cases, that is clearly not realistic. You might as well send an Albatros.
Quote from: OlafsonLenght is the distance on the 2D map and Depth is the height difference that the plane traveled.Height difference? I guess that you mean the actual distance travelled in the air (the "3D" distance if we can call it like that). Then the actual distance is 1.36 miles, and the actual speed is the one provided by Rejenorst (around 400 km/h). In both cases, that is clearly not realistic. You might as well send an Albatros.
What do you call "height difference"?Quote from: OlafsonLenght is the distance on the 2D map and Depth is the height difference that the plane traveled.Height difference? I guess that you mean the actual distance travelled in the air (the "3D" distance if we can call it like that). Then the actual distance is 1.36 miles, and the actual speed is the one provided by Rejenorst (around 400 km/h). In both cases, that is clearly not realistic. You might as well send an Albatros.
What? That makes no sense.
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleavebooks.co.uk%2Fscol%2Farittri.gif&hash=a67db7fc4285d00da51f291384747affceca63c1)
Height Difference (a) = 2.18 Km
Distance Traveled on Map (b) = 1.85 Km
Therefore
Actual Distance Traveled (c) = 2.87 Km
2870 meters /17 seconds * 3.6 = 607.764705882
I.e. actual speed would be 607 Km/h
Oh I see, you mean the difference of altitude between the two parts of the border. But the text also says that they were flying at 6000 meters, and the Russians confirmed that they were flying at this altitude. Nobody said that the plane was flying under 3600 meters when it got shot. Even if that's what they actually mean by "depth", 600 km/h is still very low, especially since they are losing altitude rather fast. So they would have been flying at 600km/h under 3600 meters of altitude to bomb a target? That's very unlikely and dangerous.
I also don't see why they would talk about the difference of altitude (which you call "depth"), before the "length".
You said 2.19km but Turks said "a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length". Basically, it means that they moved on 1.15 miles inside, which represented a "depth" of 1.36 miles from the southern border. 1.15 miles = 1.8 kilometers. So this is even slower and corresponds, as I said, to roughly 300 km/h. "Unusally slow" would be more than a euphemism.
Who the fuck cares. ONE PLANE. No deaths. In Palestine at least 2 people are murdered every day. Pakistan. Nigeria. Somali. Don't we have more important issues in the world that ONE Plane?. Now I believe it was well with in Turkey's right to shoot that plane down as it was a Military Jet in Turkish Airspace and Turkey warned Russia multiple times.no deaths? One of them died!
*snip*Literally 0 chill from this guy.
Also, what I said is that the plane was either ascending or descending. Maybe it was at 6km and it went up to 8. Or it went down to 3km to engage or start the landing process. I don't know. This results are done with the data that you gave us, and I simply calculated with that. I did not check it with other sources on the internet, I have no idea if this is true or not.Yes it's definitely a possibility. It makes more sense than having a plane flying at 300 or 400km/h. But that remains rather unlikely, considering the context (Turkish warnings), the risks of AA weapons, also considering that you are losing altitude and you should have an increased speed (since the word used is depth we can dismiss the possibility that the su 24 was getting up). All of this remains completely odd and very hard to believe. Plus talking about "depth" for this is still strange, but they are Turks, so...
But from what you gave us, it makes sense. The Plane was flying at rather low altitudes and speed, ready to engage
Who the fuck cares. ONE PLANE. No deaths.
Quote from: OlafsonAlso, what I said is that the plane was either ascending or descending. Maybe it was at 6km and it went up to 8. Or it went down to 3km to engage or start the landing process. I don't know. This results are done with the data that you gave us, and I simply calculated with that. I did not check it with other sources on the internet, I have no idea if this is true or not.Yes it's definitely a possibility. It makes more sense than having a plane flying at 300 or 400km/h. But that remains rather unlikely, considering the context (Turkish warnings), the risks of AA weapons, also considering that you are losing altitude and you should have an increased speed (since the word used is depth we can dismiss the possibility that the su 24 was getting up). All of this remains completely odd and very hard to believe. Plus talking about "depth" for this is still strange, but they are Turks, so...
But from what you gave us, it makes sense. The Plane was flying at rather low altitudes and speed, ready to engage
Olafs's interpretation is that the plane lost altitude (or increased in altitude, which is a possibility that I dismiss for the reasons explained above), so basically it would have been at 3600m at the exit point of the border. In this case, indeed, the plane would have been flying at 600km/h, which is still very slow, probably to bomb a target at the other side of the border. In this case, the plane would be flying at low altitude and very low speed. That seems completely unlikely for the reasons already given. Moreover, it relies on the interpretation that "depth", in this letter, means altitude, which is odd in itself.Quote from: OlafsonAlso, what I said is that the plane was either ascending or descending. Maybe it was at 6km and it went up to 8. Or it went down to 3km to engage or start the landing process. I don't know. This results are done with the data that you gave us, and I simply calculated with that. I did not check it with other sources on the internet, I have no idea if this is true or not.Yes it's definitely a possibility. It makes more sense than having a plane flying at 300 or 400km/h. But that remains rather unlikely, considering the context (Turkish warnings), the risks of AA weapons, also considering that you are losing altitude and you should have an increased speed (since the word used is depth we can dismiss the possibility that the su 24 was getting up). All of this remains completely odd and very hard to believe. Plus talking about "depth" for this is still strange, but they are Turks, so...
But from what you gave us, it makes sense. The Plane was flying at rather low altitudes and speed, ready to engage
Well you said yourself the alt of manpads is 4km so 6 should be fine. There's no real need to fly at supersonic speeds. 600 - 700km/h will be enough at a height of 6km to make leading extremely difficult for any small arms of which most only have a range of 2km. If DCS is worth 2 cents as an indicator then its not an unusual speed to go by (600km/h - 700) especially if checking for ground targets. Maintaining supersonic speeds in high air density is extremely resource inefficient given the air friction working against you and the amount of engine thrust you have to maintain to hold the speed. Hence the wings can fold back for the SU-24 to offer less air resistance.
The 300 - 400km/h would indeed be unusually slow but then I am using what the press said in regards to distance and time and I am pretty sure the press is getting it wrong. Olaf's interpretation makes much more sense and uses both measurements.
Erdogan is a dictator.HUHUEHUEHUEHUHUEHUE yez, he iz.
I guess that it sums it up.
Can this help?
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/belgian-physicists-calculate-that-everyone-is-lying-about-the-downed-russian-jet?utm_source=vicenewsfb
I guess that it sums it up.
And what do we learn out of this? Everyone here was wrong, including me. We all are simply not experienced enough in this matters to discuss this in a reputable way.
while we assumed that it is true
You might be interested in this one then:im not joking, but that guy saying "Allahu ackbar" at 1:36 sounds like czech. He sounds like he is saying Allahu Ackbař
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2FMR1XxqPo
The crash site is behind the hill apparently, but you would need hours to find the actual location, if that's even possible.
My opinion is that the Russian crash site is more accurate than the Turkish crash site. Indeed, we know that there was both rebel groups and government forces in the area. The location given by the Russians, somewhere around Kepir, can correspond to this. The location given by the Turks, however, corresponds to an area under rebel control.Which crash site? The first one they claimed was miles away from the second one, and now the second one they claimed was pretty close to the one the Turks initially estimated.
I'm talking about the crashsite on the Russian map. I haven't seen any other. Where is the other one?My opinion is that the Russian crash site is more accurate than the Turkish crash site. Indeed, we know that there was both rebel groups and government forces in the area. The location given by the Russians, somewhere around Kepir, can correspond to this. The location given by the Turks, however, corresponds to an area under rebel control.Which crash site? The first one they claimed was miles away from the second one, and now the second one they claimed was pretty close to the one the Turks initially estimated.
Either way, the Belgian physicists were way off.
If you check the BBC website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34950355), they have the initial Russian estimate alongside the Turkish one. The one from the site Reje linked is the new one, which is closer to what the Turks estimated.I'm talking about the crashsite on the Russian map. I haven't seen any other. Where is the other one?My opinion is that the Russian crash site is more accurate than the Turkish crash site. Indeed, we know that there was both rebel groups and government forces in the area. The location given by the Russians, somewhere around Kepir, can correspond to this. The location given by the Turks, however, corresponds to an area under rebel control.Which crash site? The first one they claimed was miles away from the second one, and now the second one they claimed was pretty close to the one the Turks initially estimated.
Either way, the Belgian physicists were way off.
As for the physician, his calculations are based on the Turkish version (we only need Turkish data). So if the calculations are ok, then the Turkish version is necessarily wrong. We know the distance between the hit and the crash (around 8 kilometers). We also know the time it took for the plane to fall and crash, so his estimation is realistic.
The hit and the crash locations are written on the Turkish map, thus we know the distance according to the Turkish version, which was the point of the discussion (discussing whether their version is coherent or not).We don't know the distance between the hit and the crash, and as I said before, it is definitely not 8km from the camera.I'm talking about the crashsite on the Russian map. I haven't seen any other. Where is the other one?My opinion is that the Russian crash site is more accurate than the Turkish crash site. Indeed, we know that there was both rebel groups and government forces in the area. The location given by the Russians, somewhere around Kepir, can correspond to this. The location given by the Turks, however, corresponds to an area under rebel control.Which crash site? The first one they claimed was miles away from the second one, and now the second one they claimed was pretty close to the one the Turks initially estimated.
Either way, the Belgian physicists were way off.
As for the physician, his calculations are based on the Turkish version (we only need Turkish data). So if the calculations are ok, then the Turkish version is necessarily wrong. We know the distance between the hit and the crash (around 8 kilometers). We also know the time it took for the plane to fall and crash, so his estimation is realistic.
You might be interested in this one then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2FMR1XxqPo
The crash site is behind the hill apparently, but you would need hours to find the actual location, if that's even possible.
-snip-
The strange thing is; if you look at google maps the crash site where the Turks claim it is then its like at least 15 - 16km away from the exit point of Turkish airspace they flew through. On google maps right click and then select measure distance.
Yeah sorry I am getting to confused because there is to many versions of the story out there lol.
MaxLam did you read anything that the rest of us wrote?
The physicists are completely wrong in their calculations.
The location of the rescue helicopter's landing is not necessarily near the crash site. Firstly the pilot ejected long before the plane reached the ground. Depending on wind etc he could have landed quite a way away. Secondly, the pilot would very likely try to move away from the crash site, as that's where rebels would go to start searching. I have no idea how long after the plane was downed that the rescue helicopter came.
My opinion is that the Russian crash site is more accurate than the Turkish crash site. Indeed, we know that there was both rebel groups and government forces in the area. The location given by the Russians, somewhere around Kepir, can correspond to this. The location given by the Turks, however, corresponds to an area under rebel control.
Also I propose to open a vote with 3 choices:
Turkey is lying.
Kebab is lying.
Turkeys are lying.
Pilots being shot while paradroppingSpoilerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0dYA3PO7Nw[close]Spoilerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snI7BHv7zjM[close]
Russian helicopter hit by TOW during rescue mission the same daySpoilerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKE9az3MdmA[close]
Remove the kebabs.
Team Vladdy baby
Remove the kebabs.
Team Vladdy baby
A kebab who is commenting now to ketchup, removed successfully by Keyboard Military Forces.
sorrrrryyy I cnt spk ths kuffar lngge wellRemove the kebabs.
Team Vladdy baby
A kebab who is commenting now to ketchup, removed successfully by Keyboard Military Forces.
pls refrain from english
Finally those dirt bags in the middle east are doing some good. Big up for Turkey shooting down the plane and for ISIS killing the autistic Russians.thought you are islamist
Still hate ISIS & all, but it's good they've got something right at least.