The community deserves better

[JackieChan]

Its difficult to find ways to repay community contributions. FSE has chosen to honor the 51st in its own way. Your argument is that the 51st a) do not merit such an honor b) your initial beta test point changes where ignored because you where not part of the cool kids and that advancement in FSE is based on favoritism/nepotism. Personally I am in no position to argue that the 51st deserved or did not deserve any honors but I don't believe you where ignored, rather that fixes don't always come overnight especially when your working to deadlines while attempting to prioritize key issues and not being able to fix a particular critical item in a short time frame. The issue you mentioned was eventually fixed in patches, while later-than-one would have wished, it was none-the-less fixed and not game-braking to begin with. As far as favoritism vs merit goes; I think your argument is valid in a professional context and I think that FSE is still very-much in the transition from a bunch of highly-skilled fun loving guys to a professional company that will hopefully one day employ more than just a few devs.   

I more or less agree on pretty much all your points, except this one. The 51st has not really contributed to NW. They contributed to MM, but I did not see them host any real events in NW nor regularly frequent the in-game servers. They chose to switch to another game and I guess it is because they did not enjoy NW as much as the other game. So why honour people for their contribution to a game they do not even play in any more.
I do not have a problem with them being beta-testers, since in my opinion the more the merrier. If more people test it, then the game will be created to the liking of more people. Yet, saying they were chosen as beta-testers for their contribution is kind of slighting for the actually active peopl, who love this game and play it a lot and are thankful for it.
They can be beta-testers for all I care, but not because of the reason that they contributed and no, this is not the 91st member speaking, because I fully agree on your point concerning retarded regimental fewds. I am merely trying to show that credit should be given where it is deserved.

Hi Jackie, you are so right here.

But allow me to go further and say they did not contribute to MM either. Their activity was in the first year of MM and after that, well, they no longer existed except for a few mentionings of Fortune, Deathstar and MrTikki.

The previous is what really grinded my gears about the whole situation.

Indeed, but at least they hosted events or joined them and participated in linebattles etc.. This is what I meant with contributing. I didn't mean that the contribution was huge and I am not saying that it was not huge, merely that they did contribute.

[Robin_Hood]

Its difficult to find ways to repay community contributions. FSE has chosen to honor the 51st in its own way. Your argument is that the 51st a) do not merit such an honor b) your initial beta test point changes where ignored because you where not part of the cool kids and that advancement in FSE is based on favoritism/nepotism. Personally I am in no position to argue that the 51st deserved or did not deserve any honors but I don't believe you where ignored, rather that fixes don't always come overnight especially when your working to deadlines while attempting to prioritize key issues and not being able to fix a particular critical item in a short time frame. The issue you mentioned was eventually fixed in patches, while later-than-one would have wished, it was none-the-less fixed and not game-braking to begin with. As far as favoritism vs merit goes; I think your argument is valid in a professional context and I think that FSE is still very-much in the transition from a bunch of highly-skilled fun loving guys to a professional company that will hopefully one day employ more than just a few devs.   

I more or less agree on pretty much all your points, except this one. The 51st has not really contributed to NW. They contributed to MM, but I did not see them host any real events in NW nor regularly frequent the in-game servers. They chose to switch to another game and I guess it is because they did not enjoy NW as much as the other game. So why honour people for their contribution to a game they do not even play in any more.
I do not have a problem with them being beta-testers, since in my opinion the more the merrier. If more people test it, then the game will be created to the liking of more people. Yet, saying they were chosen as beta-testers for their contribution is kind of slighting for the actually active peopl, who love this game and play it a lot and are thankful for it.
They can be beta-testers for all I care, but not because of the reason that they contributed and no, this is not the 91st member speaking, because I fully agree on your point concerning retarded regimental fewds. I am merely trying to show that credit should be given where it is deserved.

Hi Jackie, you are so right here.

But allow me to go further and say they did not contribute to MM either. Their activity was in the first year of MM and after that, well, they no longer existed except for a few mentionings of Fortune, Deathstar and MrTikki.

The previous is what really grinded my gears about the whole situation.

Indeed, but at least they hosted events or joined them and participated in linebattles etc.. This is what I meant with contributing. I didn't mean that the contribution was huge and I am not saying that it was not huge, merely that they did contribute.

The contribution was minuscule compared to the likes of 91st, 92nd(yeah, I said it; thank the members not the leader), 84e, 1er and much more. These regiments were the 'community', 51st did not even apply to fit into such a term :L.

[JackieChan]

Just to prove a point:
http://www.youtube.com/user/The51stRegiment/videos?view=0
The last video the 51st uploaded was 8 months ago. Of course they do not need to upload videos the entire time and I think they were a bit active even after the last video, but I doubt they'd have never recorded anything, if they'd still have been active.

[Rejenorst]

Its difficult to find ways to repay community contributions. FSE has chosen to honor the 51st in its own way. Your argument is that the 51st a) do not merit such an honor b) your initial beta test point changes where ignored because you where not part of the cool kids and that advancement in FSE is based on favoritism/nepotism. Personally I am in no position to argue that the 51st deserved or did not deserve any honors but I don't believe you where ignored, rather that fixes don't always come overnight especially when your working to deadlines while attempting to prioritize key issues and not being able to fix a particular critical item in a short time frame. The issue you mentioned was eventually fixed in patches, while later-than-one would have wished, it was none-the-less fixed and not game-braking to begin with. As far as favoritism vs merit goes; I think your argument is valid in a professional context and I think that FSE is still very-much in the transition from a bunch of highly-skilled fun loving guys to a professional company that will hopefully one day employ more than just a few devs.   

I more or less agree on pretty much all your points, except this one. The 51st has not really contributed to NW. They contributed to MM, but I did not see them host any real events in NW nor regularly frequent the in-game servers. They chose to switch to another game and I guess it is because they did not enjoy NW as much as the other game. So why honour people for their contribution to a game they do not even play in any more.
I do not have a problem with them being beta-testers, since in my opinion the more the merrier. If more people test it, then the game will be created to the liking of more people. Yet, saying they were chosen as beta-testers for their contribution is kind of slighting for the actually active people, who love this game and play it a lot and are thankful for it.
They can be beta-testers for all I care, but not because of the reason that they contributed and no, this is not the 91st member speaking, because I fully agree on your point concerning retarded regimental fewds. I am merely trying to show that credit should be given where it is deserved.

EDIT: This is concerning the regimental name and the special status, which has actually already been resolved.

Like I said; I am not in a position to state that the 51st warrants an honor for its merits or not. I don't think I really know any of its members that well with exception of Refleax (if he's even in the 51st I just saw it being mentioned earlier), I know he has put in some hard yards and has been really great to have around.

Ultimately though, whether FSE chooses to acknowledge the merit  of someone/some regiment, is, to me at least, not such a big issue. If FSE wants to ascribe merit and show their gratitude to someone then that's their choice and they're in the best position to know how that individual or regiment helped them out when it was most needed. The more valid issue to me, perhaps; is the admin selection criteria because it affects the gaming experience of customers. This is perhaps something well worth reflecting on or well worth investigating for FSE for future reference.

EDIT: Not to mention the idea of minimizing community management.

[Craig]

I was reading through this thread last night, some very good points made, I'm just sad that you all agree with Hekko now, yet myself, Daniel and Biggun were all banned for saying the same things, just not in a post. But regardless I'm glad that you all have shown your support for Hekko as I do. I'd just like to say one more thing, and publicy because if the community wants change you need complete change and now just community representatives, I would publicly request that Daniel and Biggun are also unbanned from FSE. They have done no more than me yet they remain unbanned, I am aware of Vince's personal Vendetta against Daniel, and I am also aware that he was gathering a list of things to have him banned, this is unprofessional and exactly the opposite direction of where FSE should want to go. Please can Daniel and Biggun be unbanned like I have.

[Rejenorst]

As far as I am aware Biggun and Daniel did more than just post their opinions and while I am sure that there are plenty of cases where the admins/devs may have overreacted, I am pretty certain there was no overreaction in regards to Biggun and Daniel.

[Craig]

As far as I am aware Biggun and Daniel did more than just post their opinions and while I am sure that there are plenty of cases where the admins/devs may have overreacted, I am pretty certain there was no overreaction in regards to Biggun and Daniel.

They were both banned at the same time as me. So I assume it was for the same events, I can't help feel that Vince's personal bias against Daniel is keeping him banned, especially as Vince told me that he wanted to get him banned.

[Rejenorst]

We could argue until the cows come home but in my experience everyone screams murder and vendetta when they are at the receiving end of the admin stick regardless of how justified or unjustified the action, hell even my first knee jerk reaction to being at the end of it in other forums is one of indignant outrage and annoyance until I reflect on what I actually did.. and that's still no guarantee I'll see it the admin's way  Just the way human nature is, we tend to overlook our own faults in favor of those of others.

In any case I've looked at the moderating boards for all your cases and I can safely say the "reasoning" went beyond mere posts or petty vendettas and was substantiated by more than one person. However given that I do work for FSE my opinion on the subject will most likely not be received without a cry of foul and bias

 

[Craig]

We could argue until the cows come home but in my experience everyone screams murder and vendetta when they are at the receiving end of the admin stick regardless of how justified or unjustified the action, hell even my first knee jerk reaction to being at the end of it in other forums is one of indignant outrage and annoyance until I reflect on what I actually did.. and that's still no guarantee I'll see it the admin's way  Just the way human nature is, we tend to overlook our own faults in favor of those of others.

In any case I've looked at the moderating boards for all your cases and I can safely say the "reasoning" went beyond mere posts or petty vendettas and was substantiated by more than one person. However given that I do work for FSE my opinion on the subject will most likely not be received without a cry of foul and bias

 

Okay well thanks for informing me, i tried i guess.

[Henry Cadogan]

You Hekko. You are the man! Viva la revulution!

[Flash]

Unmute James Grant!

[Hekko]

The fact is I am not trying to make out that the 51st is at fault or anything of the kind, they didn't ask for special treatment to my knowledge. The problem is that with the reasoning they were awarded the honour alot of other people should have been honoured. The whole idea to honour some regiments was stupid though, the height of stupidity was, though how other people are being insulted by being omitted while having contributed just as much as the 51st. Not to mention the poor guy who had his regimental name ripped from him in an overly theatrical manner.

And Rejenorst, you know as well as I do that the likelihod of getting heard. As simple thing such as the buggy sound for pokes/thuds that I ran by you and atleast one of the other devs was still in at launch causing confusion and anger amongst the community.

And people say that there was ways to avoid the scandal, this conveniently circumvents the fact that the culture is that you have to be buddies with Vince to be heard, and you don't become his buddy by voicing dissenting opinions. Accordingly you have a bunch of yesmen at the top that just smile and nod as they are moving from one folly to another, Hancock is a senior member of the administrative team yet he was kept in the dark as far as I know, probably because he is not affraid to speak his mind. The whole community representative thing is as ill adviced as the 51st decision, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. The root of the problem is that Vince isn't answerable to anyone, which will not change with the solution presented. And that is ultimately why this thread had to be here, infront of everyone, Vince and FSE need to have a rude awakening about the fact that they are a business, and as a business they are answerable to the customers who ultimately pay their salary.

[Carolus.]

I've honestly never had a problem with an admin on the official servers and I'm all for strictness where it is called for. I generally hop on the public servers to relax after my classes, before starting on homework and such, and I'd rather not have to deal with children and/or immature "adults" antagonizing the admins and calling each other derogatory things like fa***t and n****r while I'm doing that. I'd hardly call it heavy handed. Behave on the public servers and you'll be fine. While admittedly I haven't been around as long as some, I've been playing on the official servers for about a year and a half and have yet to be warned by an admin, let alone banned.

My class starts in 5 minutes, so I only have time to respond to this.

The outrage agaisnt the admins in this thread has not been instigated by them banning "Children", as you described them, on the official servers, something, I dare say, a majority of people in here would stand by if it were to happen. No, It is because there has been people that has gotten extreme and unjust punishments for speaking out agaisnt the FSE Team.

+1 Tali

[Harbinger]

The fact is I am not trying to make out that the 51st is at fault or anything of the kind, they didn't ask for special treatment to my knowledge. The problem is that with the reasoning they were awarded the honour alot of other people should have been honoured. The whole idea to honour some regiments was stupid though, the height of stupidity was, though how other people are being insulted by being omitted while having contributed just as much as the 51st. Not to mention the poor guy who had his regimental name ripped from him in an overly theatrical manner.

And Rejenorst, you know as well as I do that the likelihod of getting heard. As simple thing such as the buggy sound for pokes/thuds that I ran by you and atleast one of the other devs was still in at launch causing confusion and anger amongst the community.

And people say that there was ways to avoid the scandal, this conveniently circumvents the fact that the culture is that you have to be buddies with Vince to be heard, and you don't become his buddy by voicing dussenting opinions. Accordingly you have a bunch of yesmen at the top that just smile and nod as they are moving from one folly to another, Hancock is a senior member of the administrative team yet he was kept in the dark as far as I know, probably because he is not affraid to speak his mind. The whole community representative thing is as ill adviced as the 51st decision, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. The root of the problem is that Vince isn't answerable to anyone, which will not change with the solution presented. And that is ultimately why this thread had to be here, infront of everyone, Vince and FSE need to have a rude awakening about the fact that they are a business, and as a business they are answerable to the customers who ultimately pay their salary.

How do you know that other regiments are being "omitted" though? Perhaps if they decided to leave and ask for the same honors, they may have just received it.

[Robin_Hood]

The fact is I am not trying to make out that the 51st is at fault or anything of the kind, they didn't ask for special treatment to my knowledge. The problem is that with the reasoning they were awarded the honour alot of other people should have been honoured. The whole idea to honour some regiments was stupid though, the height of stupidity was, though how other people are being insulted by being omitted while having contributed just as much as the 51st. Not to mention the poor guy who had his regimental name ripped from him in an overly theatrical manner.

And Rejenorst, you know as well as I do that the likelihod of getting heard. As simple thing such as the buggy sound for pokes/thuds that I ran by you and atleast one of the other devs was still in at launch causing confusion and anger amongst the community.

And people say that there was ways to avoid the scandal, this conveniently circumvents the fact that the culture is that you have to be buddies with Vince to be heard, and you don't become his buddy by voicing dussenting opinions. Accordingly you have a bunch of yesmen at the top that just smile and nod as they are moving from one folly to another, Hancock is a senior member of the administrative team yet he was kept in the dark as far as I know, probably because he is not affraid to speak his mind. The whole community representative thing is as ill adviced as the 51st decision, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. The root of the problem is that Vince isn't answerable to anyone, which will not change with the solution presented. And that is ultimately why this thread had to be here, infront of everyone, Vince and FSE need to have a rude awakening about the fact that they are a business, and as a business they are answerable to the customers who ultimately pay their salary.

How do you know that other regiments are being "omitted" though? Perhaps if they decided to leave and ask for the same honors, they may have just received it.

We don't all have Trolafson in our regiment.