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Forum & Website / Re: Donation Concerns
« on: February 08, 2013, 12:39:27 pm »
It seems that I have to come back once more after all. Because if you want to screw people over in the game, it is sad, but after all it is only a game, but when it concerns real money of real people, it starts being serious.
First of all, PrideofNi, you have probably the most ridiculous arguments of all the people in this community, no matter what you are arguing. Because what you said basically means that someone, who gave FSE money, is not promised anything and that he will be given a gift out of gratitude, but it has absolutely no connection to the money given prior to that. That means that if FSE decides not to give people anything, it is ok. They can do that, because there is no connection between the money and the things from FSE. Well, under such conditions I would think twice to give FSE any money now, because I am not guaranteed anything according to you. I might not get copy of the game, if they don’t want to give it to me.
But I don’t think that is the case. They basically promised: “You will give us money, we will give you something in return”. It doesn’t matter whether you call it donation, pre-order, whatever. When I donate money, I don’t expect anything back. Here I was promised something for something. It is a simple relation between a company and a consumer. The whole point of it being a donation is ridiculous. Imagine that I would buy a laptop, the laptop would break down after a week, I would go to the shop and want my money back and they would say: “Well, you donated us the money and we just gave you this laptop out of gratitude, so you can’t get your money back”. How ridiculous is that?
Now, let’s get to the legal perspective. First of all, the whole issue about agreeing to the terms of use of the forum is irrelevant. You don’t need to agree to it, when you send the money to FSE. However, I agree that you can get banned from the forum based on that. But it has no connection to the money and the promise connected to them. You should also realize that you are changing the rules almost daily last two weeks, which is not really costumer friendly, because it means you can do whatever you want. If you make a rule tomorrow, that all people, whose name starts with H, will get banned, they can’t defend themselves, because according to you they agreed to the terms of use. You can see yourself, how ridiculous it is once again.
But the whole issue of being banned is irrelevant, because everyone, who asks for refund for whatever reason, must get it. And I will tell you why. You all are forgetting one very important thing. Even those, who argue in favor of the refund. The thing, which is important, are the terms people agreed to, when they sent FSE money. And there were no terms at all. Now there is a term that donations are non-refundable, but it wasn’t there before and I think that even this could be dismissed, because you don’t need to take any action, which says “I agree with this”, when you send the money. You just click on Paypal, there is no agreement to those terms.
Anyway, there were no terms, when most of the people gave FSE money. FSE can claim that they meant the money given to them to be non-refundable, but customers can claim that they thought they can get refund at any point, when they ask for it. There is a conflict, which must be resolved. The laws of consumer protection in countries of the European Union deal with such a conflict very easily. If there is something unclear in the contract between a consumer and a company, the authorities always use the interpretation, which is more favorable for the consumer. That is a simple rule, which is always applied. In other words, everyone, who gave FSE money before the new disclaimer, is entitled to get his money back, if he asks for them. At any point.
Maybe FSE should have looked at kickstarter.com first, before they made their own project. Because if you look there, they have terms of use, which clearly state (among others) that “Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward“. Why would Kickstarter spend the time and most likely the money for lawyer to make those terms, if it is all so self-evident, as you claim? And even they stated “unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward”, which would make them liable in this particular case as well, because FSE is unable to fulfill the reward of access to the special subforum, when they ban the people. The reason is irrelevant. They are unable to fulfill the promise. But as I said, this is not important, because you had no terms of use anyway and thus you are fully liable.
First of all, PrideofNi, you have probably the most ridiculous arguments of all the people in this community, no matter what you are arguing. Because what you said basically means that someone, who gave FSE money, is not promised anything and that he will be given a gift out of gratitude, but it has absolutely no connection to the money given prior to that. That means that if FSE decides not to give people anything, it is ok. They can do that, because there is no connection between the money and the things from FSE. Well, under such conditions I would think twice to give FSE any money now, because I am not guaranteed anything according to you. I might not get copy of the game, if they don’t want to give it to me.
But I don’t think that is the case. They basically promised: “You will give us money, we will give you something in return”. It doesn’t matter whether you call it donation, pre-order, whatever. When I donate money, I don’t expect anything back. Here I was promised something for something. It is a simple relation between a company and a consumer. The whole point of it being a donation is ridiculous. Imagine that I would buy a laptop, the laptop would break down after a week, I would go to the shop and want my money back and they would say: “Well, you donated us the money and we just gave you this laptop out of gratitude, so you can’t get your money back”. How ridiculous is that?
Now, let’s get to the legal perspective. First of all, the whole issue about agreeing to the terms of use of the forum is irrelevant. You don’t need to agree to it, when you send the money to FSE. However, I agree that you can get banned from the forum based on that. But it has no connection to the money and the promise connected to them. You should also realize that you are changing the rules almost daily last two weeks, which is not really costumer friendly, because it means you can do whatever you want. If you make a rule tomorrow, that all people, whose name starts with H, will get banned, they can’t defend themselves, because according to you they agreed to the terms of use. You can see yourself, how ridiculous it is once again.
But the whole issue of being banned is irrelevant, because everyone, who asks for refund for whatever reason, must get it. And I will tell you why. You all are forgetting one very important thing. Even those, who argue in favor of the refund. The thing, which is important, are the terms people agreed to, when they sent FSE money. And there were no terms at all. Now there is a term that donations are non-refundable, but it wasn’t there before and I think that even this could be dismissed, because you don’t need to take any action, which says “I agree with this”, when you send the money. You just click on Paypal, there is no agreement to those terms.
Anyway, there were no terms, when most of the people gave FSE money. FSE can claim that they meant the money given to them to be non-refundable, but customers can claim that they thought they can get refund at any point, when they ask for it. There is a conflict, which must be resolved. The laws of consumer protection in countries of the European Union deal with such a conflict very easily. If there is something unclear in the contract between a consumer and a company, the authorities always use the interpretation, which is more favorable for the consumer. That is a simple rule, which is always applied. In other words, everyone, who gave FSE money before the new disclaimer, is entitled to get his money back, if he asks for them. At any point.
Maybe FSE should have looked at kickstarter.com first, before they made their own project. Because if you look there, they have terms of use, which clearly state (among others) that “Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward“. Why would Kickstarter spend the time and most likely the money for lawyer to make those terms, if it is all so self-evident, as you claim? And even they stated “unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward”, which would make them liable in this particular case as well, because FSE is unable to fulfill the reward of access to the special subforum, when they ban the people. The reason is irrelevant. They are unable to fulfill the promise. But as I said, this is not important, because you had no terms of use anyway and thus you are fully liable.