2v2 Tournie format discussion

[33rdKincaid]

Hi all,

Just putting this out there ahead of time before the 2v2 tournament starts, hopefully to spark some discussion... (1st season thread)

Last year teams were formed in private, with regiments applying together and avoiding stacks with a simple rule preventing any regiments who made it to semis in the last major tournament from playing together. Whilst this did work to an extent I feel the group-stage was far less interesting as a result, with the top two regs from each group leaving little doubt who would ultimately make it through.

The new sign-up format I am proposing is we go for individual reg sign-ups, split the reg pool down the middle and pair an upper and lower reg randomly. This could also include (prior to pairing) a quick PM from myself to every leader, requesting any reg pairings they wish to veto due to any potential issues (language barrier/past experience/etc) which might arise. Hopefully this would avoid any upset amongst each team whilst ensuring they are somewhat fresh.

Thoughts? Also if there were any other concerns around this tournament from last season feel free to voice them here. The only one I'm aware of was an issue with map size for smaller matches, which I am more than happy to resolve by adding a smaller range of custom maps alongside the present ones.

[maskmanmarks]

Props to you Kinkaide for trying to keep this tournament as competitive as possible as it is very easy for one or even two teams to completely dominate the tournament for example a 15thYR/45thN combo. I personally dont mind your idea of mixing and matching the regiments considering the 2v2 tournament isn't the most competitive unlike EIC or RGL it being more similar to NWBC - its a fun regimental tournament.

The 45thN would always have wanted to bring two lines of its own, a centre company line and a grenadier line and I am sure other large regiments would be interested in doing the same ensuring as many of our players be involved in the tournament. I am not sure how'd this affect the randomised system you're planning on implementing as both our lines would always want to play together

Either way good luck with the tourney it'd be nice to have a more chilled but competitive tournament after EIC as lockdown starts being lifted throughout Europe 

[John Price]

I think your way of thinking is really the only way to do it. Only issue is there will be a big unbalance in those upper and lower groups, especially if 45th and 92nd want to use both their line companies.

[Rikkert]

Nah, random pairing shouldn't be a thing in a tournament of this size, or a regimental tournament in general. The point of these types of tournaments is to create proper competition among regiments. So it makes sense for the participating regiments to attempt to create a strong team within reasonable limits. In return, it makes very little sense to leave this process up to complete or partial randomness. All this will achieve is that it will "cripple" certain top regiments just "because they are good". Additionally, certain top teams will get lucky and get a decent lower tier reg and others will get unlucky and get a completely useless one. All this will do is make the tournament feel like a bit of a waste (or missed chance) to the top team that got unlucky. It will also make the tournament even more one sided for the teams that got lucky as there will be fewer proper teams to stop them. It would thus only make the tournament an even more one-sided affair for the teams that got lucky. This divide in skill between the unlucky and lucky teams would only become more apparent after the playoff stage and make the tournament less interesting. As a host it should be a priority to keep randomness and luck to a minimum in a tournament. (To the extent of what is achievable of course)

I think leaving team selection up to randomness also creates more problems than it fixes. And in this particular situation, I don't think it even fixes the problem you've laid out here in the first place. There will always be a massive divide between the level of top tier teams and lower tier teams within the group stage. Even if 15th 92nd 13e 45th were to pair up with a complete casual reg, they would likely dominate their group. (Assuming these regiments are all in different groups). They will still finish top of their group and dominate most matches there. However, when it would come to to the playoffs, random pairing would make the playoffs less competitive and of a lower overall skill level. Instead of having (for example) 8 top tier regiments with medium regiments affixed to them in playoffs, you'd have 8 top tier regiments with low tier regiments affixed to them in playoffs. Meaning the overall skill level of the playoffs will be lower.

The most important thing for this tournament is that the top competitive regiments do not group up (15th 92nd 13e 45thn 96y and 71st right now). This won't happen anyways as there is no desire or incentive among top regiments to team up like that. Slightly besides the point, but I think it would also be much more interesting if the last year's champions (15th & 77y) get the chance to defend their title. Additionally, non-random team selection would allow same language coalitions to form (for example  a IVe and 13e team), which would be able to communicate better with one another and make the competition more interesting.

[Vegi.]

I agree with Price.
Those regiments will just need to merge their coys and balance them out like they already do in EIC.
Tournaments like NWBC is a format where big regiments like 45thN and 92nd can bring their complete regiment, but I guess not for this one.

[33rdKincaid]

Nah, random pairing shouldn't be a thing in a tournament of this size, or a regimental tournament in general. The point of these types of tournaments is to create proper competition among regiments. So it makes sense for the participating regiments to attempt to create a strong team within reasonable limits. In return, it makes very little sense to leave this process up to complete or partial randomness. All this will achieve is that it will "cripple" certain top regiments just "because they are good". Additionally, certain top teams will get lucky and get a decent lower tier reg and others will get unlucky and get a completely useless one. All this will do is make the tournament feel like a bit of a waste (or missed chance) to the top team that got unlucky. It will also make the tournament even more one sided for the teams that got lucky as there will be fewer proper teams to stop them. It would thus only make the tournament an even more one-sided affair for the teams that got lucky. This divide in skill between the unlucky and lucky teams would only become more apparent after the playoff stage and make the tournament less interesting. As a host it should be a priority to keep randomness and luck to a minimum in a tournament. (To the extent of what is achievable of course)

I think leaving team selection up to randomness also creates more problems than it fixes. And in this particular situation, I don't think it even fixes the problem you've laid out here in the first place. There will always be a massive divide between the level of top tier teams and lower tier teams within the group stage. Even if 15th 92nd 13e 45th were to pair up with a complete casual reg, they would likely dominate their group. (Assuming these regiments are all in different groups). They will still finish top of their group and dominate most matches there. However, when it would come to to the playoffs, random pairing would make the playoffs less competitive and of a lower overall skill level. Instead of having (for example) 8 top tier regiments with medium regiments affixed to them in playoffs, you'd have 8 top tier regiments with low tier regiments affixed to them in playoffs. Meaning the overall skill level of the playoffs will be lower.

The most important thing for this tournament is that the top competitive regiments do not group up (15th 92nd 13e 45thn 96y and 71st right now). This won't happen anyways as there is no desire or incentive among top regiments to team up like that. Slightly besides the point, but I think it would also be much more interesting if the last year's champions (15th & 77y) get the chance to defend their title. Additionally, non-random team selection would allow same language coalitions to form (for example  a IVe and 13e team), which would be able to communicate better with one another and make the competition more interesting.

Appreciate the indepth answer mate and I agree with a number of points here and I can see why you take issue. My main misgivings with the original approach is that this time around we won't likely achieve more than 2 groups, wheras last year we achieved 3. The only way in my mind to give newer or less competitive regiments a fighting chance was to get them involved in more competitive pairings. Although I must admit this may be rose-tinted from my perspective... as you say this is more likely to result in frustration as opposed to the supporting venture I envisioned when thinking this up initially. the point you've made about the large skill gap at the lower end is very valid and would create a situation in which comp regs would get lucky or unlucky pairings... this would ofc greatly depend on who actually applies, as there are plenty of what I would call 'mid tier' regiments which would be much less of a handicap to the big boys if we did take the randomized approach.

Re. the multiple companies I wouldn't rule out the 92nd or 45th bringing their centre line (how different is this really for the 45e, 2eGren we saw last year from IVe corps?) but these are the only regiments I can really see being able to pull off something like that. Keep the ideas/discussion going guys, if anything I'm more confused than ever as to the way forward as of rn!

[Gi]

It's impossible to fairly randomise a tournament like this since there are such variances of skill within regiments, just have a rule once again in which "top" regiments cannot play with one another, and give the larger regiments such as 45thn/92nd the ability to play with two lines.

[33rdKincaid]

It's impossible to fairly randomise a tournament like this since there are such variances of skill within regiments, just have a rule once again in which "top" regiments cannot play with one another, and give the larger regiments such as 45thn/92nd the ability to play with two lines.

No doubt it would involve some surprises and would be a serious shake up, just looking to guage what people want from the tournament. I am more than happy to go ahead with whichever option suits the majority of the attendance best.

[Rikkert]

Nah, random pairing shouldn't be a thing in a tournament of this size, or a regimental tournament in general. The point of these types of tournaments is to create proper competition among regiments. So it makes sense for the participating regiments to attempt to create a strong team within reasonable limits. In return, it makes very little sense to leave this process up to complete or partial randomness. All this will achieve is that it will "cripple" certain top regiments just "because they are good". Additionally, certain top teams will get lucky and get a decent lower tier reg and others will get unlucky and get a completely useless one. All this will do is make the tournament feel like a bit of a waste (or missed chance) to the top team that got unlucky. It will also make the tournament even more one sided for the teams that got lucky as there will be fewer proper teams to stop them. It would thus only make the tournament an even more one-sided affair for the teams that got lucky. This divide in skill between the unlucky and lucky teams would only become more apparent after the playoff stage and make the tournament less interesting. As a host it should be a priority to keep randomness and luck to a minimum in a tournament. (To the extent of what is achievable of course)

I think leaving team selection up to randomness also creates more problems than it fixes. And in this particular situation, I don't think it even fixes the problem you've laid out here in the first place. There will always be a massive divide between the level of top tier teams and lower tier teams within the group stage. Even if 15th 92nd 13e 45th were to pair up with a complete casual reg, they would likely dominate their group. (Assuming these regiments are all in different groups). They will still finish top of their group and dominate most matches there. However, when it would come to to the playoffs, random pairing would make the playoffs less competitive and of a lower overall skill level. Instead of having (for example) 8 top tier regiments with medium regiments affixed to them in playoffs, you'd have 8 top tier regiments with low tier regiments affixed to them in playoffs. Meaning the overall skill level of the playoffs will be lower.

The most important thing for this tournament is that the top competitive regiments do not group up (15th 92nd 13e 45thn 96y and 71st right now). This won't happen anyways as there is no desire or incentive among top regiments to team up like that. Slightly besides the point, but I think it would also be much more interesting if the last year's champions (15th & 77y) get the chance to defend their title. Additionally, non-random team selection would allow same language coalitions to form (for example  a IVe and 13e team), which would be able to communicate better with one another and make the competition more interesting.

Appreciate the indepth answer mate and I agree with a number of points here and I can see why you take issue. My main misgivings with the original approach is that this time around we won't likely achieve more than 2 groups, wheras last year we achieved 3. The only way in my mind to give newer or less competitive regiments a fighting chance was to get them involved in more competitive pairings. Although I must admit this may be rose-tinted from my perspective... as you say this is more likely to result in frustration as opposed to the supporting venture I envisioned when thinking this up initially. the point you've made about the large skill gap at the lower end is very valid and would create a situation in which comp regs would get lucky or unlucky pairings... this would ofc greatly depend on who actually applies, as there are plenty of what I would call 'mid tier' regiments which would be much less of a handicap to the big boys if we did take the randomized approach.

Re. the multiple companies I wouldn't rule out the 92nd or 45th bringing their centre line (how different is this really for the 45e, 2eGren we saw last year from IVe corps?) but these are the only regiments I can really see being able to pull off something like that. Keep the ideas/discussion going guys, if anything I'm more confused than ever as to the way forward as of rn!

Yeah it is difficult to get the more casually oriented regiments to sign up. I understand that they will not have any desire to sign up to a tournament where they don't have any chance and are just there to "fill the groups". But such a problem could also be fixed by having a lower tier bracket and an upper tier bracket in playoffs. Alternatively, you could disconnect the two tiers completely from the get-go and have a Division A and Division B, like RGL S7 had. Of course you would then run into the problem of having to decide which team belongs in which tier, but you would also run into that problem if you were to split the teams and randomize them as you proposed in your OP.

[BearlyHuman]

Whilst I would very much be up for a rematch of 15thYR/77y vs 33/92nd, perhaps it would be more interesting/better to ask the regiments that participated last time to all find new partners?

[✠ Connor ✠]

Making the tournament more competitive is in itself a very good approach but I personally don't like random pairings. I think the main reason for regiments to apply for such a tournament is playing with a befriended regiment, not really to win the whole thing.

I mean the "veto rule" just shows how difficult it can be to pair regiments randomly. I think this will just lead to regiment A vetoing all other regiments that they don't really want to play with out. Another thing that can happen is that the top tier regiments just try to pair with the mid tier regiments, which will again lead to stacked teams.

As seen in the last season, top tier regiments can still completely dominate matches even when their teammates are getting obliterated. This will likely not change or will even get worse with random pairing.

Would personally suggest making two entirely different brackets either before playoffs or after.

[maskmanmarks]

Whilst I would very much be up for a rematch of 15thYR/77y vs 33/92nd, perhaps it would be more interesting/better to ask the regiments that participated last time to all find new partners?

tbh last time the 15thYR/77y and 33rd/92nd partnerships were not overly overpowered and their level then was commensurate of a stronger team within the community that wasn't overwhelmingly the favourite and it was very fair. Forcing regiments to change up and find new partners wouldn't make it more balanced imo and actually makes it less competitive as you could still get 13e/71st partnerships though as Rikkert said I dont think there would be a desire to stack to win a tournament such as this.

I dont think anyone is complaining or would be complaining about the 15thYR/77y and 33rd/92nd teams as despite them being very strong as they both reached the finals last time they are not unbeatable. The rules seemed to work out well last time and as long as Kincaid keeps his hand on the tiller when it comes to advising and forming teams we wouldn't have overly overpowered teams. I think all regimental leaders at the top are mature enough to recognise this and not abuse the freedom of choice when picking other regiments to pair up with.

Plus I can think of a number of regiments that can boast two lines easily other than 92nd/45thN, 16th that has three line companies along with their cavalry and lights as well as the IVe Corps of course and the Ve brigade could easily bring two 20+ lines.

[Eamon]

I would only agree with this if we as the 15th/77y were absolutely smacking people in melee like all the time in every charge, but no we had to work for it, we were like 4-1 down or something at one point in the final. We were there on merit and not because we are just a top regiment, we have good chemistry with 77y and both line leaderships are pretty good but we do not have the 92nd 45th roster between us on paper. I know its not specifically directed at us but this applies to every scenario in 2v2 teams like ours, the balance was fine imo.

[Vegi.]

I want 33rd cuz 33rd is bae

[Tardet]

@Rikkert

The whole argument you brought makes perfect sense however I can't help but find your perspective of the whole 'stacked teams' extremely biased. Like yeah, I think any sensed people would agree with your ranking of the current possible top teams however, it's a bit rich somehow the 77y isn't listed in there but the 45thN is, whereas they just drew each other last week in EIC. Like your duo is fine but somehow any other possible top team is to be ruled out because it's 'too strong'?

I know you probably mean well and just want to avoid a stack that would stomp any opposition and obviously, we all know you and the 77y are a team of regiments that play together because they like each other, not because they care about the win. I would also like to have the returning champions come back to defend their title, seems ever fitting. But somehow, I just feel a bit uncomfortable that a potential team ranking including the 45thN as a top team, but not the 77y, had to come from you.


Generally speaking, I agree with the overall sentiment though. I don't like the idea of random pairing and would very much prefer that regiments like the 45thN/92nd get either the possibility to play with two lines of their owns (like Mask suggested) or form a coalition/duo with regiments they enjoy playing with (like the 92nd/33rd runner-up team of last edition). Rather than putting a load of restriction on the way people are allowed to form teams, why not just try to prevent what's obviously an attempt at abusing the tournament's format instead of limiting a 'potentially strong' but genuine coalition of two regiments that would enjoy playing together.

As an example, the 13e/96y teaming-up would make zero sense considering both regiments have little to nothing in common, that I have always clearly stated I dislike how 96y approach linebattle competition purely when it comes to tactics/gameplay, we don't have a strong group of players that like one another, etc...; but in another scenario, a team that's potentially (in average at least) as strong could be allowed on the principle that they just want to have a good time together. Rather than restricting for the sake of restricting, I would just prefer seeing Kincaid rely on the opinion of trustable and fair community members to decide on what's to be allowed & forbidden.

With that being said....@Presidente @USE4Life @Kieran, you guys looking for a partner by any chance?