Favourite All Time Leader(s)

[Duuring]

Socialism killed hundreds of millions of people while fascism got exterminated quite fast.

That takes the cake for being the worst argument in the history of mankind.

[Turin Turambar]

If the socialism would have got exterminated as well, many people would still be alive ... or dead. The price could have been too high.

I don't mean socialism is bad because it lived longer but because too few saw the danger coming from it.

[Duuring]

You are comparing countries and dictators that called themselves socialist (or rather, communist) to those who called themselves fascist and then merely look at death count, with no regard to period, place, geographical factors, politics and other social problems.

Even worse, you call the man who was destined to exterminate entire people and countries for the sole reason that they existed, a good leader. I'd prefer to call him a madman.

I don't know if you have paid attention, but pretty much every country in western Europe can be considered socialist to some degree.

[Turin Turambar]

Hitler WAS a good leader. He was also a madman, a good foreign affair politician, a mass murderer and a better painter than me which does not mean much.

Nonetheless, the socialism/communism (I mean in those countries like the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Northern Vietnam and so on) had a much more terrible impact on humanity than the fascism.

[Colonel Howe]

Fascism, um, wasn't over and done with. In fact, it's lasted longer than socialism. Romans, French, South America/Quite a bit of Europe during the Cold War. And whole argument that 100 million and whatever died under communism is ridiculous. You mean to tell me that no one has died under capitalism, democracy, and fascism? I would call Christopher Columbus a capitalist and he alone would be responsible for ushering in the deaths of 100 million native Americans. So right there, I guess the two are even. Whatever the ideology, people with die under it. And when talking about genocides, purges, and wars number should not be a factor.

[Duuring]

Unlike what people think, Northern Vietnam did not have any grotesque communist purges (not more then any country in revolution would have). Meanwhile, the USA had no problems supporting a dictator in South Vietnam that was finally toppled by his own generals. It's a common mistake.

I'm with Augy on this one. Hitler was a savy politician and 'right man' at the moment. Many of his projects were not his own though, and I somehow find that a leader who has no problems throwing away his country's future and that of his people just because he's an asshole, not a very good one. He was also an idiot and stubborn concerning military decisions. Stalingrad, Moskowa, Great Britian, the Balkan, everytime he steered the German army away from victory just because he had changed his mind.

I would call Christopher Columbus a capitalist and he alone would be responsible for ushering in the deaths of 100 million native Americans. So right there, I guess the two are even.

I grant you 1 Internet for that.

[Colonel Howe]

I grant you 1 Internet for that.

goddamnit dutchie bourgeois scum i know you can gib more internet to the masses

[Turin Turambar]

The differende is, that Christopher Columbus just explored new land for his queen. Hitler killed millions of Jews on purpose, Stalin killed millions of anti-revolutionaries and prisoners of war on purpose, Mao let millions of his people die from starvation on purpose.

But I don't want to say that only fascism or only socialism causes such terrible things.
I think especially Duurin knows exactly what I think about republics for example.

[Colonel Howe]

The differende is, that Christopher Columbus just explored new land for his queen. Hitler killed millions of Jews on purpose, Stalin killed millions of anti-revolutionaries and prisoners of war on purpose, Mao let millions of his people die from starvation on purpose.

But I don't want to say that only fascism or only socialism causes such terrible things.
I think especially Duurin knows exactly what I think about republics for example.

Um yeah and when he got there...he killed natives and exploited the land...on purpose

[Augy]

The USSR, China, North Korea etc are all State Capitalist, so in essence you are hating on Capitalism.

[Turin Turambar]

The differende is, that Christopher Columbus just explored new land for his queen. Hitler killed millions of Jews on purpose, Stalin killed millions of anti-revolutionaries and prisoners of war on purpose, Mao let millions of his people die from starvation on purpose.

But I don't want to say that only fascism or only socialism causes such terrible things.
I think especially Duurin knows exactly what I think about republics for example.

Um yeah and when he got there...he killed natives and exploited the land...on purpose

And for that he got punished by his monarch.

The USSR, China, North Korea etc are all State Capitalist, so in essence you are hating on Capitalism.

I don't know what I should think about capitalism but I have a strong antipathy against my own and the US government and corrupt politicians working against their country or against humanity only for their own prosperity.

[Duuring]

The USSR, China, North Korea etc are all State Capitalist, so in essence you are hating on Capitalism.

Come on Augy. Don't ruin that one special moment in which we agree on something. Pls.

And for that he got punished by his monarch.

Don't be ridiculous.

I don't know what I should think about capitalism but I have a strong antipathy against my own and the US government and corrupt politicians working against their country or against humanity only for their own prosperity.

I'm pretty sure everybody have an antipathy against corrupt people.

[Turin Turambar]

Ferdinand II. and Isabella I. believed that it was a crime against god to enslave the natives. When Columbus brought American slaves to Spain, Isabella spared them and brought them back to their homeland.

Later Columbus got dismissed as the governor of the colony.

[Augy]

Michael Collins and James Connolly.

The USSR, China, North Korea etc are all State Capitalist, so in essence you are hating on Capitalism.

Come on Augy. Don't ruin that one special moment in which we agree on something. Pls.

When i call the USSR state capitalism, i am using a particular definition of the word capitalism. In this definition capitalism means a system where one group of people does the work and a different group of people directs the work and makes all the decisions, including how to spend the surplus generated by the work.

So the USSR clearly met this definition of capitalism. They replaced capitalist bosses with Communist Party commissars but the workers themselves still had no power on the job. So people came up with the name "state capitalism" to describe this, because they wanted to emphasize that Soviet "Communism" was actually similar to capitalism in this way.

In this view true socialism or communism would eliminate class distinction by making the workers their own bosses through more some kind of workplace democracy or consensus process. The key feature of this idea of socialism is that the people who make the decisions are the ones who actually do the work, instead of some separate group of people.

[Colonel Howe]

Ferdinand II. and Isabella I. believed that it was a crime against god to enslave the natives. When Columbus brought American slaves to Spain, Isabella spared them and brought them back to their homeland.

Later Columbus got dismissed as the governor of the colony.

I know those Spanish were so disgusted. So disgusting they continued their exploitation and genocide of the native people.