Author Topic: Favourite All Time Leader(s)  (Read 101262 times)

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Offline Tali

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2012, 11:34:15 pm »
Lincoln gg op no re.

Im from the south, but this man revolutionised warfare. One of the American greats.

How did Lincoln, a Lawyer and politician, revolutionize warfare?  ???

Offline Windom

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2012, 02:13:56 am »
Rail roads, telegrams, mass production.

Offline kpetschulat

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2012, 02:37:01 am »
Rail roads, telegrams, mass production.

That's infrastructure, and had little to no effect on a revolution of warfare.

Offline Hekko

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2012, 02:49:54 am »
Rail roads, telegrams, mass production.

That's infrastructure, and had little to no effect on a revolution of warfare.

You are very naive if you believe that infrastructre and communications had no impact on warfare. Logistics and communications is one of the fundamental things that determine the success or failure of campaigns. Poor communication essentially lost quatre-bras for the french since d'Erlons corps was playing pong between Napoleon and Ney since there was a breakdown in communications. Not to mention logistics being a huge part of why the Russian campaign failed for napoleon.

Having said that though, giving Lincoln credit for those economic and scientific concepts is not really correct either.

Offline kpetschulat

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2012, 03:13:50 am »
Rail roads, telegrams, mass production.

That's infrastructure, and had little to no effect on a revolution of warfare.

You are very naive if you believe that infrastructre and communications had no impact on warfare. Logistics and communications is one of the fundamental things that determine the success or failure of campaigns. Poor communication essentially lost quatre-bras for the french since d'Erlons corps was playing pong between Napoleon and Ney since there was a breakdown in communications. Not to mention logistics being a huge part of why the Russian campaign failed for napoleon.

Having said that though, giving Lincoln credit for those economic and scientific concepts is not really correct either.

You mistook what I said, as most people do on the World Wide Internet.

Offline Tali

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2012, 03:28:54 am »
Rail roads, telegrams, mass production.

That's infrastructure, and had little to no effect on a revolution of warfare.

You are very naive if you believe that infrastructre and communications had no impact on warfare. Logistics and communications is one of the fundamental things that determine the success or failure of campaigns. Poor communication essentially lost quatre-bras for the french since d'Erlons corps was playing pong between Napoleon and Ney since there was a breakdown in communications. Not to mention logistics being a huge part of why the Russian campaign failed for napoleon.

Having said that though, giving Lincoln credit for those economic and scientific concepts is not really correct either.

You mistook what I said, as most people do on the World Wide Internet.

Then please do explain.

Anyhow, as Hekko stated, advancements in infrastructure is not something Lincoln is to be praised for.

Offline kpetschulat

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2012, 04:15:48 am »
Rail roads, telegrams, mass production.

That's infrastructure, and had little to no effect on a revolution of warfare.

What I meant is that Lincoln did not revolutionize warfare, and infrastructure does not either. Infrastructure has an effect on war, but did not "revolutionize" it.

Offline Windom

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2012, 05:19:32 am »
So, leaaders were communicating with telegrams and using railroad systems to transport men to the front before Lincoln? ??? The telegram was invented in 1844, I'm pretty sure he is the first along with other ACW leaders. I made my statement to broad, I should have said introduced modern warfare or something along those lines.

Edit submarines, photographs also.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 05:27:06 am by Windom »

Offline Blobmania

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2012, 05:49:41 am »
I think the point being made here is that Ol' Abe didn't invent any of those things. Anyone else around at the time could have used them just as he did, he didn't directly cause their invention or use.
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Offline TheBoberton

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2012, 05:51:34 am »
Lincoln? Submarines? Lol.

The first submarine to sink an enemy vessel was Confederate.

And both the telegraph and railway saw service in the Crimean War, half a decade before the American Civil War.

Offline Windom

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2012, 06:28:08 am »
I threw in submarines and photographs to support the statement that the ACW was the first modern war. Lincoln didn't create any of these things, but in my opinion used them the best. I never looked into The Crimean War, which ultimately made me look stupid. My apologies for my ignorance, may this dispute be over.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2012, 11:01:29 am »
Rail roads, telegrams, mass production.

That's infrastructure, and had little to no effect on a revolution of warfare.

What I meant is that Lincoln did not revolutionize warfare, and infrastructure does not either. Infrastructure has an effect on war, but did not "revolutionize" it.

I think railroads and telegrams actually DID revolutionize warfare. Instead of weeks marching or days riding, both men and messages could be sent faster then ever.

Offline Hekko

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2012, 12:48:22 pm »
Rail roads, telegrams, mass production.

That's infrastructure, and had little to no effect on a revolution of warfare.

What I meant is that Lincoln did not revolutionize warfare, and infrastructure does not either. Infrastructure has an effect on war, but did not "revolutionize" it.

I must protest most strongly, you seem to only be thinking of warfare on a tactical and operational level, not the strategic one where he changes make an enormous difference, moving troops from one front to an other etc.

Offline Craig

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2012, 02:53:58 am »
Just look at the Russian Civil war between the reds and the whites, the anti bolshevik forces vastly outnumbered the Bolsheviks, but Trotsky made use of the main railway line in Russia, basically turning his train into a moving headquarters, in which he could give speeches to the men, and deploy troops at any point that was attacked, the use of the railroad in warfare cannot be underestimated.

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Offline Tali

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2012, 03:24:29 am »
I think nobody denies that having access to superior infrastructure ( Lines of communication, better possibilities for supplies and reinforcements and so on) is helpful. However, I'd argue that it did not revolutionize warfare, in the sense of from the point that railways and telegraphs were invented, and indeed before this, beginning with the national armies of the french revolution, and 1914, warfare looked very much the same.

It was not until World war I that war was truly "revolutionized" here in the west.