Author Topic: Let's discuss: Reenacting!  (Read 231496 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2070 on: May 25, 2018, 08:50:22 pm »
I didn't see your question about the linnen for trousers. Of course we can help you, it's actually pretty easy.

Same goes for you, of course, Riddlez. Don't believe any stories you might hear about linnen. It's not harder to clean, it's not uncomfortable and it's not significantly more expensive.

Offline zac

  • Donator
  • *
  • Posts: 1472
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2071 on: May 26, 2018, 06:44:49 am »
As someone who just finished sewing four gaitered trousers (or overalls as yanks call them), I can confirm that linen is not only very comfortable (especially for warmer climates), but also very easy to sew yourself should you go down that path.

Although Duuring etc can probably push you in the right direction of where to get stuff, I can highly suggest http://www.wmboothdraper.com/Linen/indexwithnav.html?linens_index.html for accurate linen, although you guys can probably find local sources....us poor Aussies have to import everything :')

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2072 on: May 26, 2018, 03:23:34 pm »
Okay, now that I actually have some time, let me write a longer post om authenticity, research and group standards.

Re-enactors re-enact a period. As we tell visitors, we try to re-create the period as close as possible. The big question is why we try to do so. To me, it is for personal experience. I want to know what life felt like back then, and thus everything needs to be as close as possible. And yes, having your cloths out of correct fabric makes a difference.

This, to me, is also what make the hobby fun. We are constantly challenging ourselves. Not just by not using tents and eating historical food, but also be always being on the look-out for things to improve the impression. When it stops being challenging, it stops being fun. Oh, sure, the social and outdoors aspect of the hobby keeps a lot of people in. But it's no surprise lots of people move from Napoleonic to WW2. To give an example, when Nico and me decided we wanted to get gloves, we spend three days looking at historical paintings, descriptions and orders before we decides not to go with the widely-used half-fingers black gloves everybody uses, but instead opted for civilian mittens. There is very little evidence and no images that the half-finger gloves were actually used. If they were, they were also much longer, covering the whole lower arm, and probably made out of grey wool.

So why, if you ask 85e people, will they probably tell you the black gloves are correct? They might do so because they simply think it is. Yet if you tell them, they are very unlikely to accept this. They will be very critical, demanding all your sources and concluding that you actually don't know for sure. Yet I can assure you they never were this critical when buying the black gloves. They don't want to buy new stuff, so they will simply refuse to believe your research. What's worse, they will also tell new people to get the same, probably incorrect gloves.

Of course, it's a silly example, but it is true and it shows group dynamic. They can lift standards, or they lock them down. And of course, sometimes people just really don't care and actively oppose improving the impression because it will also force them to admit they're wrong and buy new stuff. Sean is like that. He buys himself a fantasy model bonnet de police, yet tells a new member it's not authentic to wear an 1810 uniform (although it is). What is authentic or not is dependent on what he wants. If you tell him you want the old uniform, and he will tell it's not authentic or that it 'ruins the image', while continueing to wear his silly fantasy bonnet de police. It's impossible to work with hom, because at the end of the day, he doesn't care. Same goes for drill. We adressed it, we translated the instructions, hell, Nico made a whole guidebook with drawinggs and everything. Sean's reaction is to be pissed off, complain about us and then forget everything we teach him.

There's nothing more annoying then this arbitrary criticism. I was talking to two 85e members who used like 8 sheepskins as blanket. Now, they are obviously mainstreamers, and I respect that. When I asked in good humour where they would keep it on the march, they joked about just butchering a whole herd of sheep every night. We laughed, and then I told them about the large sheepskin covers WW1 soldiers used for guard duty. Then suddenly Hans came up and asked me if that was a regulation item. Somewhat confused, I replied I actually didn't know. Hans then told me it proves that soldiers didn't always get what was regulated. It's the favorite mainstreamer excuse whenever they are faced with a piece of research they don't like. But it completely misses the point. We use drawings and descriptions as much as we use regulations.

Soldiers can only keep what they can carry. They got rid of things. And when you re-enact on that principle, re-enactment actually becomes much easier. Suddenly, you can transport 5 people in a car. Suddenly, you don't need to spend money on tents, plastic covers and chairs. You become more dependent on eachother, yes, but that too makes it more fun. Your squad becomes not just people you hang out with, but people you live with.

Offline zac

  • Donator
  • *
  • Posts: 1472
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2073 on: May 26, 2018, 04:23:20 pm »
Well said.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 04:15:30 am by zac »

Offline Riddlez

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4845
    • View Profile
  • Nick: Riddlez
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2074 on: May 27, 2018, 06:13:25 pm »
Hans then told me it proves that soldiers didn't always get what was regulated. It's the favorite mainstreamer excuse whenever they are faced with a piece of research they don't like. But it completely misses the point. We use drawings and descriptions as much as we use regulations.\


Well to be fair, if you use period-accurate materials... why not improvise stuff... it could be little stuff, just to make things easier. I agree it shouldn't be stuff that actually alters your appearence much... but stuff to use in-camp.... why not? Provided you'd be able to carry it with you, off course...


While I do respect your hardcore approach to re-enactment, I do not wish to go into such detail myself.... obviously, the uniform I'd want to wear would have to be... well as dead-on as i could get it, but for staying in camp? I have been cold outside in camp myself, I have felt what it is to have been given too little food and sleep (usually at the same time)... so that is not something I'd wish to take to my hobby just yet... though I truly understand the appeal don't get me wrong.

As for food.... I guess I am just too fit to be a 19th century soldier.... I need the food, as you guys noticed =P.
I wouldn't mind to go a little bit more hardcore for some events, but for me that would have to be events where I actually have the material to make it not-loevestijn for myself. Liek being able to dig, get wood, make shelter. And not in the freezing cold of Dutch winter, in the wind, right next to water, and below sea level =P
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2075 on: May 27, 2018, 07:08:06 pm »

Well to be fair, if you use period-accurate materials... why not improvise stuff... it could be little stuff, just to make things easier. I agree it shouldn't be stuff that actually alters your appearence much... but stuff to use in-camp.... why not? Provided you'd be able to carry it with you, off course...


Well, no. Soldiers could carry almost nothing in addition to their issued equipment and rations. They sometimes made or purchased scarfs, cups and pipes, and we know soldiers would go to great lenghts saving their plunderware. It's besides the point, though. Nobody was seriously claiming soldiers had large blankets made out of eight sheepskins.

Quote
While I do respect your hardcore approach to re-enactment, I do not wish to go into such detail myself.... obviously, the uniform I'd want to wear would have to be... well as dead-on as i could get it, but for staying in camp? I have been cold outside in camp myself, I have felt what it is to have been given too little food and sleep (usually at the same time)... so that is not something I'd wish to take to my hobby just yet... though I truly understand the appeal don't get me wrong.

As for food.... I guess I am just too fit to be a 19th century soldier.... I need the food, as you guys noticed =P.
.

We don't exactly starve on period food. We had steaks at Quatre-Bras, and I'm yet to actually eat all my rations. And as for sleep; the people telling me they need their tents and modern sleeping bag because 'I need a good sleep' are the same people who go drinking until 3 am in the morning and keep us awake with their singing. In a similair situation, the Dutch 85e was getting drunk on gluhwein at Archeon while expressing their disbelieve how we can sleep outside.

Quote
I wouldn't mind to go a little bit more hardcore for some events, but for me that would have to be events where I actually have the material to make it not-loevestijn for myself. Liek being able to dig, get wood, make shelter. And not in the freezing cold of Dutch winter, in the wind, right next to water, and below sea level =P
.

Progressive re-enactors need to be smart, yes. There is some trial and error process, but again, that's the challenge. I get that there's less appeal for someone in your line of profession, of course.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 07:09:58 pm by Duuring »

Offline Riddlez

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4845
    • View Profile
  • Nick: Riddlez
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2076 on: May 27, 2018, 08:11:26 pm »

Well, no. Soldiers could carry almost nothing in addition to their issued equipment and rations. They sometimes made or purchased scarfs, cups and pipes, and we know soldiers would go to great lenghts saving their plunderware. It's besides the point, though. Nobody was seriously claiming soldiers had large blankets made out of eight sheepskins.

I know, that's what I meant. Small stuff, improvements of what was issued, replaceables... not actually stuff extra if you can't carry it.



'I need a good sleep' are the same people who go drinking until 3 am in the morning and keep us awake with their singing.

You're overgeneralising. I really appreciate my sleep time (not that I need it though) and you won't ever see me drunk on an event.... too much.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Olafson

  • FSE Developer
  • ****
  • Posts: 3995
  • #friendsforever
    • View Profile
  • Nick: FSE_Olafson
  • Side: Union
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2077 on: May 27, 2018, 08:16:04 pm »
We are day drinkers though. We always drink so much alcohol that all our alcohol is gone on the first day. (If you don't get it, we usually do not bring any) #screwsean


« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 08:33:48 pm by Olafson »

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2078 on: May 27, 2018, 08:57:30 pm »
But that's the thing, Riddlez. I never argued they didn't carry non-issued items. But too often it's just used as an excuse to do whatever you want. Or it's just to discredit our research.

And yes, I'm generalizing, but it shows the irony of the whole thing.

DAYDRINKERSSSSS

Offline Riddlez

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4845
    • View Profile
  • Nick: Riddlez
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2079 on: May 27, 2018, 09:27:11 pm »
But that's the thing, Riddlez. I never argued they didn't carry non-issued items. But too often it's just used as an excuse to do whatever you want.

One would wonder where such feelings would come from...

And no, I didn't mean to put words into your mouth... I get we have a slightly different take on how far authenticity should go, but still, if you compare the 85e with other groups... are they truly that bad?
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2080 on: May 27, 2018, 10:52:13 pm »
Regardless of my answer to that, the question itself is irrelevant.

Offline Olafson

  • FSE Developer
  • ****
  • Posts: 3995
  • #friendsforever
    • View Profile
  • Nick: FSE_Olafson
  • Side: Union
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2081 on: May 27, 2018, 11:22:45 pm »
I always had the feeling that the 85e is slightly better than most other mainstreamer units.

But recently, since about half a year I have the feeling that they are getting increasingly worse. Maybe it is just me realizing that most of what they do is wrong, or they are actually getting worse. It would fit, since Sean is pretty much in charge of the whole thing.
Maybe it is both. It wouldn't surprise me.

Offline Riddlez

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4845
    • View Profile
  • Nick: Riddlez
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2082 on: May 27, 2018, 11:46:46 pm »
Just out of curiosity, what about the drill are they doing wrong?
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2083 on: May 28, 2018, 12:37:42 am »
Give us any video of the 85e drilling and we'll explain.

Offline Olafson

  • FSE Developer
  • ****
  • Posts: 3995
  • #friendsforever
    • View Profile
  • Nick: FSE_Olafson
  • Side: Union
Re: Let's discuss: Reenacting!
« Reply #2084 on: May 28, 2018, 01:32:15 am »
Don't you worry. I am already on it. But it takes time.