Author Topic: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List  (Read 26405 times)

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Offline Tardet

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #255 on: August 04, 2019, 01:36:58 pm »
The module is about muskets, so making a bayonet or a sword list would be just as irrelevant as each other. The original intention was large scale line battles, which involved both muskets (with the main aspect being around shooting in lines) and swords (for officers), only the community made the group fighting scene a thing; some group fighting also includes swords. In Native, spearmen are also considered in lists, even though you'd argue that Native is about swords.

kind regards
trot888

Everything you mentioned is factually correct, except for your first sentence. The skill displayed with a bayonet has always been the main factor to compare the infantry player's melee skill. Shooting is too random to be considered a 'true' skill even though a minority will argue the contrary (and it's true that you can understand its functioning to a certain extent). Sword skills have always been a thing too but they only interested a minority of players and were only brought in the competitive picture later on. Even after that, the tournaments including swords only represented like 5% of the competitive event hosted and most of the time, swords were only brought in alongside bayonets, to bring a bit of fresh air to very repetitive competitions. While I can understand your reasoning when comparing sword in NW to spearman in native, it's not exactly the same. In fact, they have numerous important differences, making the parallel quite inaccurate.

Following that explanation, we can, therefore, understand that when it comes purely to making forum melee lists meant to compare player's skills, bayonet and swords are not as irrelevant as each other.

trot888, I'm happy to have a short talk at the end of that course, as it seems your knowledge of the NW community is vast yet terribly incomplete. As for the rest of you, I will see you next week.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 01:38:32 pm by Tardet »
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Offline Rikkert

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #256 on: August 04, 2019, 02:12:35 pm »
Ive always seen the sword and bayo tournaments as the less serious ones. Like a fun inbetween tournament.

Offline Fietta

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #257 on: August 04, 2019, 02:31:36 pm »
I think you're misunderstanding my point, there's no fine line between interest and importance. I'm also basing my opinion about relevancy based upon the original means of the module, rather than what the community make it out to be. If swords are used in NW, even if there's fewer tournament or players who use them, the point is still there, they're still used. If you were to define a list based on skill, relevancy doesn't matter, as there's skill involved with both sword and bayonets, where and how they're used does not make them any more or any less relevant. My original point about both being as 'irrelevant' as each other is because lists are subjective, meaning they're not an accurate representation of the player's skill, but more so a bucket of egotistical numbers and placements. Even if fewer people were to use swords, they're still just as important as a bayonet when it comes to the main reason the modules exist; line battles. Obviously people come to know and love bayonets, so they've become the 'mainstream' as swords were only ever introduced to NCOs, meaning other players never had the chance to use them, which gave the illusion that they're irrelevant. Someone's true melee potential would be a combination of bayonets and sword play, rather than just picking one. Fewer people use awlpike in Native, yet it's considered extremely important and just as relevant as swords when it comes to fights and battle skill, just like how swords are considered to be important in line battles or other tournaments. Just because people form tournaments without swords does not make them less relevant. Obviously none of my argument is about duelling but about group fighting.

In group fighting tournaments where swords exist, in some cases, the swordsmen could single-handedly take out multiple people with ease (I'm not saying bayonets can't, it's just there's no comparison between the two) because of the 4 directional combat, making them the strongest and most skill based weapon on the module. A sword would beat a bayonet in a 1 on 1 combat, players from Native join NW and are almost instantly better than a lot of NW players without knowing the NW meta, and since they catch on quickly can progress in the ranks 1000s of hours quicker than just sole NW players. So I can't stress enough that the true test of NW infantry skill would be a combination of both, which is why I'd advocate swords to be introduced in all tournaments, as a true test of a player's melee ability. Only being able to block two directions in a module where both 4 direction and 2 direction melee weapons exist is a bit silly. Coming from Native with no NW experience and then joining an 8v8 swords and bayonet groupfight, I'd have a larger impact as an 'NW noob' by killing more people with a sword than a top level bayonet fighter would, because of 4 directions. Just because swords are ruled out because people can't block 4 directions, doesn't mean the players are better, I'd argue they're worse. git gud with both or stay bad forever.

Talking about regimental group fights, it should stick to the same format as a line battle would, the officers would use the sword and the rest use bayonets.

Basing relevancy off interest is silly.

kind regards
trot888
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 02:54:17 pm by trot888 »

Offline nIvan

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #258 on: August 04, 2019, 02:52:14 pm »
yes

Offline Maximou

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #259 on: August 04, 2019, 03:01:15 pm »
g pas lu xd
   

Offline Tardet

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #260 on: August 04, 2019, 03:33:25 pm »
Your earlier comment when you answered Darklight seemed to imply that sword and bayonets were on the same line when discussing NW players skills, ergo as irrelevant as each other. If you meant theoretically speaking, then yes I agree, both require a certain level of skill to be mastered and both could be used in a competitive environment, actually, swords is probably the hardest of the two to fully master. So both could be as irrelevant and relevant as each other. However, practically speaking, swords have barely been used in the competitive scene and when they have been, tournaments have often been considered as less serious by most. Mentioning line battles is the wrong way to approach things because we are simply speaking about groupfighting skills here. Yes, swords are part of the NW module but they mean little to nothing when speaking about the competitive groupfighting scene. Basing relevance off hypothesis is probably even more silly.

I am not entirely sure why you are completely drifting in the second part of your post and trying to make a point about sword needing to be implemented in NW competitions but here it's not so much about you being right or wrong. I understand the points you are bringing and they are not stupid, but swords will never be assimilated to the 'try-hard' side of NW. Since early 2013 (when they first got implemented in a groupfighting tournament) to nowadays, they always remained as a way to have less serious and competitive tournaments. Swords being implemented as a weapon/class in every NW groupfighting tournament has as much chance to happen as Khergits being implemented in the competitive faction pool on Native.

Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often.




Offline Fietta

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #261 on: August 04, 2019, 03:40:00 pm »
Again you're basing relevancy off interest, you're opinion is extremely flawed, you're pretty much saying they're both as relevant or irrelevant as each other (which was exactly my original point) then go back to saying how swords aren't used, they're not used because people are accustomed to playing group fighting with only bayonets and people are unable to block the 4 directions, them being 'not serious' is because of how the skill and tactics differ to the usual. There's no reason swords shouldn't be included as part of the serious competitive NW side, there's no 'flaw' of using swords apart from people are probably just annoyed by dying constantly from the 4 directions. When talking about 'basing relevancy off hypothesis is even more silly' is completely true, but that's exactly what you're doing, you're basing relevance off interest, I'm saying they're both just as irrelevant, meaning I'm making an equal point, I'm not the one arguing that one or the other is more relevant. Anyways, we both agreed on my original point about relevancy, even with your odd argument against your own argument.

kind regards
trot888
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 03:45:28 pm by trot888 »

Offline Tardet

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #262 on: August 04, 2019, 03:50:22 pm »
To me, relevance is based on the present, not on what could potentially happen. At the moment, swords are not as relevant as bayonets when judging the skills of an infantry NW player, that's not even an opinion nor something you can argue about but simply the reality of our current scene.

Now if you are telling me that swords could be used as an equally relevant factor, then yes, I agree. But if it had to be the case, it would have happened years ago.

Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often.




Offline Fietta

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #263 on: August 04, 2019, 03:54:15 pm »
There's no potential in what I'm saying - there's been tournaments where swords and bayonets have played alongside, regardless of how competitive it was, you could see the impact of the swords. Swords would've been added years ago if more people could actually use them, they were limited to officers, which was the point I made before. I'm also arguing that judging the skill of an NW player is subjective, and I completely say that the skill is by my account judged by their sword and bayonet ability currently. The nature of NW means there's always going to be fewer sword players, meaning bayonet will always be more popular, which is probably why the first group fighting tournament was bayonet only (though there could've potentially been melee based ones) - made by a bayonet player.

kind regards
trot888
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 03:58:02 pm by trot888 »

Offline Tardet

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #264 on: August 04, 2019, 04:01:53 pm »
Everyone can use a sword, I practised with a sword on NW way before I even became a CO in any regiment and I know many other friends who did the same. You can play it on a public server and there were several attempts from different people at populating a sword groupfighting server.

I'm also arguing that judging the skill of an NW player is subjective, and I completely say that the skill is by my account judged by their sword and bayonet ability currently.

Judging the skill of a player is subjective. But on NW, most infantry players are judged by their pairs based on their bayonets skills, not their sword ones. Just because you suddenly bring the fact that swords could be used in a competitive environment doesn't change the current reality.
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Offline Fietta

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #265 on: August 04, 2019, 04:06:17 pm »
I think it's going around in circles and our opinions will be different thus, carry on in such a tedious task of endless replying is not reasonable, which is what we can both agree on. I could carry on telling you relevancy, but we share two different views.

kind regards
trot888

Offline Tardet

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #266 on: August 04, 2019, 04:16:18 pm »
I fully agree on it going around in circles. A lot of what you say is true or at least makes sense to my eyes but we indeed seem to share different opinions on relevancy and other subjective matters.

Bottom line, if you want to carry on and give more importance to the sword in the current NW groupfighting scene (regiments and/or teams) I believe hosting regular sword + bayonets tournaments and also full swords tournaments (1v1/2v2/3v3 etc..) would be a good idea. So far, we had very few of them in comparison to the regular ones (full bayonets) and it surely is a detriment to your whole argument or at least, doesn't help to make certain people taking them as seriously as other tournaments.
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often.




Offline Fartknocker

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #267 on: August 04, 2019, 04:19:05 pm »
Is trot888 EU’s version of MATT?
63e pawn in an anti-63e world.

Offline Fietta

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #268 on: August 04, 2019, 04:32:13 pm »
I fully agree on it going around in circles. A lot of what you say is true or at least makes sense to my eyes but we indeed seem to share different opinions on relevancy and other subjective matters.

Bottom line, if you want to carry on and give more importance to the sword in the current NW groupfighting scene (regiments and/or teams) I believe hosting regular sword + bayonets tournaments and also full swords tournaments (1v1/2v2/3v3 etc..) would be a good idea. So far, we had very few of them in comparison to the regular ones (full bayonets) and it surely is a detriment to your whole argument or at least, doesn't help to make certain people taking them as seriously as other tournaments.

Having a fresh competitive lead by introducing swords in a more competitive aspect would for sure increase the skill ceiling, not that I know how or have enough NW renown to produce a well-respected and popular competitive Sword & Bayonet combo tournament, but I'd believe it to be a step forward and I'd help in pretty much anyway I can to make it the norm, obviously I'd still want the wider interest to be bayonets, but havin' the mermaid man and barnacle boy sword and bayonet combo would be tasty.

kind regards
trot888
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 04:35:38 pm by trot888 »

Offline nIvan

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Re: Gibby & Kore's NW Sword List
« Reply #269 on: August 04, 2019, 05:33:32 pm »
4v4 two swords two bayonets tourney please  ;)