Author Topic: [SERIOUS] Young suicide rates are worrisome, yet somewhat understandable.  (Read 9807 times)

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Offline Sgt.Winters

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Preface:

Hello people. Before starting, I would like to say that I am in no way advocating for suicide to be pursued as the only option, nor am I suicidal. The purpose of this writing is to state my beliefs regarding the recent surge of suicides, and to hopefully have them changed (because quite frankly, this is a miserable position to hold). This argument does not apply to those who wish to end their lives on legitimate physical or mental ailments, but rather a general outlook for the Average Joe in modern society. I should also make it clear that my views are heavily influenced by a cynical view of history, as well as humanity, in general (delving into existential philosophy at 15 probably didn't help my view on this matter either :/). This is not a plea for pity, but instead a last ditch effort to escape the clutches of pessimism. The situations here will mostly concern Americans, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is becoming an increasingly global problem.

A Discouraging Future:

To start off, I have recently turned 18 years of age and have begun to start stressing over the bigger things in life, as one normally does. A few major ones are rather typical: what my profession will be, what college to attend, how will I support myself, is getting married and having children even worth it, etc... I've surfed r/teenagers a bit in recent months to see if I could find similar patterns, and this (understandably) seems to be somewhat common in my age group. A good chunk of these issues pertain to teenage angst, exams, and breakups. Adults have told me that this feeling is completely normal (I play TOR with a few dudes, some of whom grew up in the 90's, during which many of them felt hopeless and apathetic as well). However, I can't help but feel as if some of these are unique in the sense that they relate to the anxiety-inducing crises that appear to be threatening our entire way of life. One belief that I have noticed within my social group, and recently myself, is that very few of us hold on to any notion of hope for the next 10-30 years of our lives. This isn't just a personal worry, but also an existential one. In this paper, I would like to address the three big ones that are lurking right above our heads: student debt, climate change, and apathy in general.

Student Debt:

College, whether public or private, certainly doesn't come cheap, and its ugly head has been showing for a bit now. Currently, 44 million citizens of the US owe over 1.5 trillion dollars in student loans. If my math isn't off, that is at least an average of 35,000$ per person. This exceeds any sort of household debt excluding mortgage. These loans range well above 100,000$ for quite a few of these individuals. It could be potentially disastrous for taxpayers, and many of us will spend the rest of our lives paying it off if a solution isn't found. For many, the only way to advance their lives is to take out these loans. They basically have to hope that they will be able to pay it off within a few years times. While this would be the optimal situation, it just doesn't seem realistic considering current circumstances. There is no guarantee that you will even be able to get a job that applies to the degree you worked for, so it could be all for nothing. Personally, I don't think cancelling the debt will fix the problem outright, as it could encourage reckless spending if certain precautions aren't put in place (and America is rather terrible when it comes to long-term thinking). I will readily admit that I currently have a limited understanding of finances , but I'd imagine when considering the fact that most of this nation isn't rich, tens of thousands in debt can be crippling.

Climate Change:

Overwhelming scientific evidence has shown that we are effectively hammering Earth with a strap-on, and it isn't enjoying it in the slightest. I frankly don't buy into the alarmist propaganda that the entire planet will be incinerated into a heap of spherical ash. There is however, no denying that our quality of life is going go downhill, fast. Food shortages, mass immigration, population displacement, extreme weather conditions, you name it. Shit will get bad quick if we don't do something on a large scale. My discontinued use of plastic straws in order to save the turtles won't bring a halt to ocean pollution. My decision to limit myself to two potential children won't drastically effect the carbon footprints that humanity firmly plants. And finally, my next door neighbor that eats a purely vegetarian diet, uses reusable water bottles, and bikes to work every morning isn't going to prevent the sixth mass extinction. It would require a group effort from the world's most powerful nations to see even a small difference. That just doesn't seem to be happening as quick as it needs to. When you consider the fact that our president and at least 1/3 of our adult population doesn't even consider climate change to be real, who wouldn't find it difficult not to feel anything but utter despair? Add in the fact that many of these people control the upper echelons of our democracy, potentially for the next 20 years, and you can see why things will likely remain stagnant. I see disaster as certain at this point. In fact, if there is anything my hours of history reading has taught me, is that we only act at the last possible moment before disaster strikes. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening with climate change, considering it is a slow, gradual build up to an ultimately horrendous outcome that most people don't seem to notice. Blame can primarily be put on this nation's education system, as well the rampant circulation of fake news that plague the citizenry (although this was inevitable given the nature of the internet).

Apathy:

While I hate having to generalize an entire generation of people for their actions, it has become clear that the Baby Boomers have heavily contributed to our current situation. As George Carlin put it, they seemed to have developed a rather enduring life philosophy of "GIMME IT IT'S MINE!", which many of them maintain to this very day. Could this lifestyle been fueled by the possibility that they would all be annihilated by nuclear warfare during their youths.? Possibly, but considering that isn't really a big deal anymore, I can't see why they would keep this view up other than pure selfishness. On top of this, I suspect that have also adopted an "Après nous le déluge" approach to the problems ahead of us. This is very infuriating to me. They are basically saying "fuck you it's your problem now", even though they enabled many of these problems to exist in the first place! Once again, many of these people are in high positions of political office, instead being mostly concerned about how much money they can run off with. To further the problem, Millennials aren't doing much either. They talk a whole lot, especially on this site, of how change can be reached by voting and there is reason to be hopeful for the future. Come election day though, their enthusiasm seems to be near nonexistent at the polling places. Most of them would rather spend time on Twitter rants and Reddit posts complaining about how big of a failure we are while the rest of the world laughs at us. I will confess that I'm guilty of this as well, with the main factor being that we are incapable of dealing with abstract threats until faced directly.

Conclusion:

So now that we are through with all that, how does any of this tie into suicide? The answer to that, at least to me, is depressingly easy to answer. If we will be spending our whole lives paying off absurd amounts of debt with no other solution, attempting to fix a climate crisis that might be screwed anyways, and trying to convince a largely apathetic population that there are serious issues at hand, who wouldn't see just ending it all as a potentially better option? Why would we want to waste most of our time and energy fixing the problems of past generations that could have been (for the most part) avoided in the first place? Would the overwhelming sense of anxiety and dread not lead many of us to just give up, eventually leading to a premature demise? To some extent, this train of thought feels justified, at least when you take into account the rather bleak predictions for the economy and environment in the next half century. Rather than pushing it forward, we will be desperately trying to regain some sense of manageable balance for civilization. I envy the person that can see optimism in this absolute clusterfuck of a situation, because it seems to me that we are just expected to slug on through without complaining.

Now, I'm well aware that the topic of suicide is a controversial one regardless of circumstance, but it has become such a common source of discussion amongst my peers that I'd like to gain another perspective. With personal issues added in, and the general worldview of crushing nihilistic doomsday pessimism, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that my whole life will be rife with more misery than I care to take. I understand that my age plays a factor into how I view the future, but hopefully you will be able to take me somewhat seriously, despite my inexperience. I'm also know that struggle is merely a part of life, but part of me thinks much of what we will face could have been largely avoided if ignorance and greed hadn't festered as much as it did. Then again, that is merely human nature, isn't it?

Offline Mexican

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While the suicide rates among young people have been steadily increasing over the past few years, I don't believe they are as big a problem as it is made out to be. The thing about suicide is that is is very very hard to pull off, especially if you are in your physical prime and are biologically and psychologically selected to stay alive by any means necessary. It takes much more than the problems you have outlined in order to actually go through with an act as permanent as suicide (i.e. loneliness endured over many years, divorce). If you look at suicide statistics, the highest rate appears in middle-aged men living in more rural parts of the U.S. (Montana is the state with the highest rate per ASFP: https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ ). Here is a quote from one of my favorite authors that I feel accurately describes the rationale behind someone who is truly suicidal:

Spoiler
"The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."

-David Foster Wallace
[close]

While young people may be depressed at an alarming rate (I am one of these people), I do not believe the situation is hopeless and would argue that this is, as you stated, a normal condition in our stage of life (young adult) where we are not quite emotionally matured to deal with the ugly truths about our situation. You could say this is a "rite of passage" into the stage of adulthood that everyone goes through in their own way.

Student debt: This is a very real and unsustainable problem that the U.S. is currently facing that I don't think a solution will be found for anytime soon. However, thinking about this pragmatically, I don't believe it is enough of a reason to forego higher education, which at this point is necessary to have in order to have a stable income. Furthermore, I can realistically see college debt being forgiven at some point in the future just because there is a very low chance that this debt will be paid off and because of the sheer amount of people it affects. So basically, don't pay those student loans :^)

Climate Change: It is an undeniable fact that climate change exists and that humans are responsible for the rate at which it occurring. I am skeptical however as to the extent that we as humans can actually do to prevent it, or even whether it would produce the catastrophic events like food shortages, mass immigration, population displacement, extreme weather conditions, and the like. I laude anyone who makes personal lifestyle choices to reduce their carbon footprint, but I would I agree with you that such a person ultimately won't be the one to prevent the planet from undergoing dramatic change and it's unrealistic to expect governments to enforce such a lifestyle upon everyone. (Here's an interesting article on a fatalistic view about climate change by Nobel prize laureate Robert Laughlin: https://theamericanscholar.org/what-the-earth-knows/#.XUc6zuhKiUl)

Apathy: There will always be selfish people in the world, but I am not sure how much harm the boomers actually have contributed to current conditions or whether your generalization is accurate. In any case, these people are starting to phase out of the workforce and will eventually begin to die off and probably won't have as big an impact on the future as our generation will.

Anyway, it is my belief that every generation has its problems and crisis, and that ours will be no exception, but the power of human will has shown us time and time again that we get through these things more or less unscathed. The future is uncertain and we haven't been around long enough to feel certain that we will get through it, but I think we will. Then again, I could be completely wrong and this might end up being the point at which we finally destroy ourselves, so might as well just ride it out and enjoy the ride :^).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 10:06:57 pm by Mexican »
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Offline Sgt.Winters

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While the suicide rates among young people have been steadily increasing over the past few years, I don't believe they are as big a problem as it is made out to be. The thing about suicide is that is is very very hard to pull off, especially if you are in your physical prime and are biologically and psychologically selected to stay alive by any means necessary. It takes much more than the problems you have outlined in order to actually go through with an act as permanent as suicide (i.e. loneliness endured over many years, divorce). If you look at suicide statistics, the highest rate appears in middle-aged men living in more rural parts of the U.S. (Montana is the state with the highest rate per ASFP: https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ ). Here is a quote from one of my favorite authors that I feel accurately describes the rationale behind someone who is truly suicidal:

Spoiler
"The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."
 

-David Foster Wallace
[close]
I hoped that someone would use Wallace's quote, as I felt as if I could articulate the point a little bit better from another's usage of it. Anyways, let us assume that fall and fire retain their symbolism, but the latter is amplified by a drastic amount with the points I had used above. Would many not have their anxieties about the future (which is considerably bad in our case) eventually fall into the same chasm of agony that Foster references? The fire could be stoked at an accelerated rate, leading said individual to jump far sooner than others would have at other points in time. In my opinion, I see that as exactly what is occurring right now.
 

Quote
While young people may be depressed at an alarming rate (I am one of these people), I do not believe the situation is hopeless and would argue that this is, as you stated, a normal condition in our stage of life (young adult) where we are not quite emotionally matured to deal with the ugly truths about our situation. You could say this is a "rite of passage" into the stage of adulthood that everyone goes through in their own way.
The feeling that teenagers/young adults is completely natural, but as I said above, those pressures are becoming increasingly taxing with each subsequent generation. Nowadays, it is nigh-impossible to get away from what is happening across the world. What could take hours or even days to report now takes mere seconds. Information is constantly being thrown at us at such a rate that we simply can't handle it in most cases. Essentially, it is driving us batshit insane, and it's only getting worse.

Quote
Student debt: This is a very real and unsustainable problem that the U.S. is currently facing that I don't think a solution will be found for anytime soon. However, thinking about this pragmatically, I don't believe it is enough of a reason to forego higher education, which at this point is necessary to have in order to have a stable income. Furthermore, I can realistically see college debt being forgiven at some point in the future just because there is a very low chance that this debt will be paid off and because of the sheer amount of people it affects. So basically, don't pay those student loans :^)
Agreed for the most part, but I don't think the Dem's plan to simply pull the plug on the debt will only solve things in the long term.

Quote
Climate Change: It is an undeniable fact that climate change exists and that humans are responsible for the rate at which it occurring. I am skeptical however as to the extent that we as humans can actually do to prevent it, or even whether it would produce the catastrophic events like food shortages, mass immigration, population displacement, extreme weather conditions, and the like. I laude anyone who makes personal lifestyle choices to reduce their carbon footprint, but I would I agree with you that such a person ultimately won't be the one to prevent the planet from undergoing dramatic change and it's unrealistic to expect governments to enforce such a lifestyle upon everyone. (Here's an interesting article on a fatalistic view about climate change by Nobel prize laureate Robert Laughlin: https://theamericanscholar.org/what-the-earth-knows/#.XUc6zuhKiUl)
Climate change is indeed natural, and we have sped it up considerably to the point that we aren't quite sure how we will adapt. I also believe that we are past the tipping point of saving us from any permanent damage. We are only beginning to feel the effects from CO2 emissions that occurred in the 70s and 80s. It still has thirty years of catching up, and the effects are already being seen. As the caps melt, expect the sea levels to rise and new beachfront property to become available. Let's also not forget that sizable amounts of the world population live on the coast, and once the water starts coming, they are going to start moving further inland (the worst case of this being in Bangladesh). My generation does confuse me at times though. On some days, they are willing to participate so that we may have a preservable planet in the near future, while on other days they simply resort to defeatism and then proceed to cry about their cosmic insignificance.

Quote
Apathy: There will always be selfish people in the world, but I am not sure how much harm the boomers actually have contributed to current conditions or whether your generalization is accurate. In any case, these people are starting to phase out of the workforce and will eventually begin to die off and probably won't have as big an impact on the future as our generation will.
I'll have to write up the issues Boomers have caused at another time, as it's rather complicated. To simplify; I'm rather certain the damage they have done is going to effect us for a long time, and they will probably get shit on in the history books.

Quote
Anyway, it is my belief that every generation has its problems and crisis, and that ours will be no exception, but the power of human will has shown us time and time again that we get through these things more or less unscathed. The future is uncertain and we haven't been around long enough to feel certain that we will get through it, but I think we will. Then again, I could be completely wrong and this might end up being the point at which we finally destroy ourselves, so might as well just ride it out and enjoy the ride :^).
If only enjoying the ride was so simple for me  :(

Offline Eamon

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Offline Windflower

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« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 12:22:47 am by Windflower »

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Listen to me big fat red haired spastic, you don't have half of my intelectual capacity, you are a fucking brain less animal, i think your mother throwed you on a wall when you were a baby and this is why you have the same brain as a monkey,
You understand nothing, this is why you are working at 20, because your brain did not allowed you to go to school to grab a decent degree, being toxic on a video game is not the same as being retarded, you should try to do some maths exercices because remember you can't even count to 10 if you remember one of the recent tournament, so now go threat your gambling addiction before your mom kick you out of her house.
And you should also go in an asylum, you get triggered by a fucking game and go in depression, deleting everyone on Steam and setting your profile as private, you cunt.

Offline Theodin

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I don't disagree with the reasons you've outlined explaining why suicide and hopelessness are on the rise, but I would venture to say that the biggest factors driving the 17-24 demographic into this poor mental state are broken families and the complete destruction of community spirit across the Western world. Children from one-parent households, especially fatherless households, are extremely at risk for future mental illness, and since the rate of stable marriages declines rapidly the lower you go in socioeconomic status, it is not a surprise that a great number of young people are driven to destructive behaviors and eventually suicide.

Moreover, the attitude you cast on Boomers of selfishness is also reflected in mainstream Gen Z culture, as well - apart from lip service to supporting others with mental illness, the "treat yourself" culture/popular attitudes towards consumer behavior reject any real sense of community in favor of individual hedonism. At least Boomers recognize the importance of a community (whether actually religious or not, that cohort is much more likely to engage in a religious community), while millenials and generation z have an extremely negative view of religion. It's no wonder this exact demographic cohort makes up the mass shooters of today - young, hopeless, existentially nihilistic, from a family with divorced or deceased parent(s), and socially neglected and underdeveloped.   

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Offline Sgt.Winters

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I don't disagree with the reasons you've outlined explaining why suicide and hopelessness are on the rise, but I would venture to say that the biggest factors driving the 17-24 demographic into this poor mental state are broken families and the complete destruction of community spirit across the Western world. Children from one-parent households, especially fatherless households, are extremely at risk for future mental illness, and since the rate of stable marriages declines rapidly the lower you go in socioeconomic status, it is not a surprise that a great number of young people are driven to destructive behaviors and eventually suicide.

Moreover, the attitude you cast on Boomers of selfishness is also reflected in mainstream Gen Z culture, as well - apart from lip service to supporting others with mental illness, the "treat yourself" culture/popular attitudes towards consumer behavior reject any real sense of community in favor of individual hedonism. At least Boomers recognize the importance of a community (whether actually religious or not, that cohort is much more likely to engage in a religious community), while millenials and generation z have an extremely negative view of religion. It's no wonder this exact demographic cohort makes up the mass shooters of today - young, hopeless, existentially nihilistic, from a family with divorced or deceased parent(s), and socially neglected and underdeveloped.
True, Western Culture is currently undergoing massive shifts that are tugging at every corner with no clear direction. Younger people also tend to be more driven by lust rather than compatibility when considering their intimate relationships, often resulting in failure.

Your writings on the sense of community amongst Boomers is also true, although I disagree on the severity of selfishness. Now, personal selfishness is evident amongst all generations, but it is debatable if their socioeconomic and political motives couldn’t have been any worse than their predecessors, but I digress.

Concerning the lack of community and religion amongst the young generations, I believe that this was inevitable. With the rise of the technology age, people were virtually able to have the entire knowledge of the planet at their fingertips, and could connect with people across it near-instantaneously. For those struggling introverts, this was a complete godsend. Of course, like all things, in heavy doses it can start to become increasingly unhealthy, which we are beginning to see the full effects of now. 

Religion is a tad more complicated. Their numbers have been drifting for quite some time, with 20% of the US already identifying as atheist/agnostic/non-religious. Civilizations have slowly became more interconnected over the past 200 years, now quicker than ever. With a flood of new ideas being traded globally, people questioning their own stances on life were a given, thus triggering a mass crisis of meaning.  I hate to bring him up, but Nietzsche‘s whole “God is dead” fuckery was rather foretelling. The number of adults who say they lack meaning in life are increasing exponentially, and a good chunk of them aren’t going into religion. Also, if you remember Richard Dawkin’s massive Atheist Crusade during the 2000’s, the internet for a few years went from a relatively small shithole to a gigantic one, and hasn’t changed since. The massive influx of skeptical thought and a focus of critical thinking (with the sideffects of pseudo-intellectual theories, condescending attitudes, and the general hivemind) swept America by storm, and forever changed it. These people however turned me off from their ideas awhile ago (because let’s face it, the general internet atheism community isn’t particularly charming).

Offline Kore

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tl;dr at this point, but know this - suicide is extremely selfish and pathetic way to go
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Offline Windflower

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tl;dr at this point, but know this - suicide is extremely selfish and pathetic way to go
humanity is extremely selfish and pathetic too, so it balances out

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Offline Malkolm R. Lind

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tl;dr at this point, but know this - suicide is extremely selfish and pathetic way to go
I do not think it's a selfish act to take your own life. I can't bring myself to believe that suicidal people ignore the fact that they're leaving their friends and families behind. It's important to remember what's going on in the mind of a very depressed person. If you put yourself in the situation you might find that the decision to take your own life is far from rational. Atleast when mental illnes like depression is the reason behind the decision.

Offline Piercee

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I did an attempt years ago, got saved from it. I consider it a selfish and stupid choice.

Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem.



Offline Sgt.Winters

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tl;dr at this point, but know this - suicide is extremely selfish and pathetic way to go
I do not think it's a selfish act to take your own life. I can't bring myself to believe that suicidal people ignore the fact that they're leaving their friends and families behind. It's important to remember what's going on in the mind of a very depressed person. If you put yourself in the situation you might find that the decision to take your own life is far from rational. Atleast when mental illnes like depression is the reason behind the decision.
I'd say the reasons for the suicide determine whether it is selfish. Say you are a single parent with two children working two jobs in order to provide, and then one day you've decided enough is enough. I would say that is certainly selfish, as you have probably traumatized the children, as well as leaving them completely alone. Now lets look at that poor bastard who just lost his retirement savings, got divorced, and was fired from his job. Is suicide then justifiable from an outsiders perspective? From what I can gather, most suicides are poorly thought out, usually being a rash answer to an overblown problem. This is hardly a Cato the Younger type of sacrifice.

Unless you are able to physically tear someone into your own reality, nobody is ever going to fully understand you except yourself. If a person has already exhausted every option, it is up to them to decide if going on is even worth it.

Offline JollyCanadian

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I briefly read everything and won't make a long post.

I don't know if it's just suicide rates are going up OR it's the glamorization of depression.

I have a friend who's depressed and constantly makes jokes about it and generally uses it as an excuse. I've seen classmates when I was in HS using "depression"(whom weren't diagnosed) as an excuse to get out of things.

Constantly on social media there are memes about depression and the few posts that glamorize depression in comics.

There are people who see someone suffer from depression and use suicide as a fix. People will believe it because they wouldn't think or believe that people will be effected by it and that it only causes more pain. I think a lot of people have thought about suicide and I've been there but realize that 1.it only gets worse for those around. 2.You don't "fix" anything in your life.
I cannot speak for those who've suffered from traumas both physical and mental. I can speak as a young adult who stuggles sometimes day to day.

It's an interesting subject and I believe it should be talked about constantly.
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I'm putting suicide rates in young men down to a lack of wonderlust and ambition. The systems were currently raised in are perfected machines designed to create worker bees. The young man biologically is designed to improve and overtake as is all evolution and evolving but we aren't allowed to do so and become frustrated / disillusioned. The majority get distracted and fall into the trap of the machine others are generally left behind and are at their own devices.

But you're only useful while you can work for the machine, as rates of suicide in older men is just as bad (I believe no expert ) once you untangle yourself out of debt, get your kids on their feet & have time to think I guess you revert back.

If you're too busy you don't have time to be depressed, if you've got something constantly calling you it helps. I believe boredom & depression are linked and could be the gateway into a spiral.

 After all our brains are problem solvers. And somewhere along the line the idea of death becomes the correction to your life's issues.