Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 525519 times)

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Offline Olafson

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4695 on: January 06, 2019, 07:52:25 pm »
So, did the NL actually sell their tanks or did they just decommission them and store them somewhere? I never quite understood why a country would sell perfectly fine military equipment. Wouldn't it make more sense to just store it somewhere, in case you might need it later? It costs more than selling your tanks, but it will still be cheaper and faster than buying it all new.

Sold most of them to Norway I believe. And to some shithole coutries.
It is not cheaper to store them. They still need regular maintenance and the location where they're stored needs to be under constant guard.
Getting rid of tanks doesn't mean you're going to get rid of just vehicles. You are getting rid of maintenance infrastructure, spare parts and storage, ammunition and the whole infrastructure behind that, personnel to operate tanks, training facilities plus staff and logistics, staff capacity.

Just storing tanks wouldn't solve the problem of it being expensive to bring them back. The thing that makes it more expensive than just buying new stuff is that it takes a couple of years to get tanks operational in a unit again. The costs are there.
Also, the time tanks are in storage not being used, they're also not being kept current. If you're storing tanks for 8 years, after you've been using them for ten years already, the second they're going to get out of storage, they will require a midlife-cycle upgrade. That is going to cost a couple of million per tank. No the current construction is much cheaper. We steal everything from the German motorpool and only pay for it if the tanks are deployed.

Alright, good arguments there. I did not think about the infrastructure behind that. I admit defeat :P

Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4696 on: January 06, 2019, 08:00:02 pm »
"England Lost to Belgium in the World Cup this year, 2-0..... can we play it again until we get the result we want please! "

Democracy has been mostly forgotten by many in the EU, but thankfully not by everyone. The referendum was voted on, and the remain lost, deal with it!

Out means OUT! (despite the Globalist Elite best efforts)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 08:01:59 pm by Charles Caldwell »

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4697 on: January 06, 2019, 08:11:59 pm »
Don't compare politics and democracy to sports.

Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4698 on: January 06, 2019, 08:17:10 pm »
Don't compare politics and democracy to sports.

Why not? One group didnt get the result they wanted, and wish it played again (the 'Peoples' or I like to say the 'Losers' Vote) thinking they will win the second time around!

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4699 on: January 06, 2019, 08:47:21 pm »
Spoiler
Quote
If the Dutch can't afford tanks then they can't fight a modern war,

Because tanks play such a incredible big role in all the conflicts we're fighting today, right? No, they don't. We send scouts to Mali, infantry to the Baltic states, F-16s to Jordan and ships all over the place. Tanks would do absolutely nothing and serve purely as a PR-tool. That money can be spend way more effectively. Don't get me wrong, if we would place those tanks in Latvia or Lithuania I'd be all for it. But we won't.

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Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc?

I'm just gonna assume that question is not meant serious and you can tell the difference between the political and militairy reasons to buy a jet and not a tank. Especially considering the sort of missions we actually perform with our military.

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I get you usually go in with other partners, but it makes a lot more sense to hide behind German/EU re-armament.

Even if we get more tanks (because we do have them, a whopping twelve), they're 99% sure going to be part of the Mechanized Brigade, and thus part of the 1st German Panzerdivision. So whether we get tanks or not really doesn't make any political difference.
[close]

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective. And even so, what's the point in spending good money on it simply to hand it over to German control as part of an EU military union?

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4700 on: January 06, 2019, 08:50:48 pm »
Spoiler
Quote
If the Dutch can't afford tanks then they can't fight a modern war,

Because tanks play such a incredible big role in all the conflicts we're fighting today, right? No, they don't. We send scouts to Mali, infantry to the Baltic states, F-16s to Jordan and ships all over the place. Tanks would do absolutely nothing and serve purely as a PR-tool. That money can be spend way more effectively. Don't get me wrong, if we would place those tanks in Latvia or Lithuania I'd be all for it. But we won't.

Quote
Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc?

I'm just gonna assume that question is not meant serious and you can tell the difference between the political and militairy reasons to buy a jet and not a tank. Especially considering the sort of missions we actually perform with our military.

Quote
I get you usually go in with other partners, but it makes a lot more sense to hide behind German/EU re-armament.

Even if we get more tanks (because we do have them, a whopping twelve), they're 99% sure going to be part of the Mechanized Brigade, and thus part of the 1st German Panzerdivision. So whether we get tanks or not really doesn't make any political difference.
[close]

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective. And even so, what's the point in spending good money on it simply to hand it over to German control as part of an EU military union?

Not really how an alliance works. That's like saying Belgium might as well have abolished its army in 1914 because Britain would guard its neutrality.

Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4701 on: January 06, 2019, 09:38:28 pm »

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective.

That's what most within NATO think! I think from memory only a few Nations meet their budget requirements for defence......

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4702 on: January 06, 2019, 10:36:44 pm »
Spoiler
Quote
If the Dutch can't afford tanks then they can't fight a modern war,

Because tanks play such a incredible big role in all the conflicts we're fighting today, right? No, they don't. We send scouts to Mali, infantry to the Baltic states, F-16s to Jordan and ships all over the place. Tanks would do absolutely nothing and serve purely as a PR-tool. That money can be spend way more effectively. Don't get me wrong, if we would place those tanks in Latvia or Lithuania I'd be all for it. But we won't.

Quote
Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc?

I'm just gonna assume that question is not meant serious and you can tell the difference between the political and militairy reasons to buy a jet and not a tank. Especially considering the sort of missions we actually perform with our military.

Quote
I get you usually go in with other partners, but it makes a lot more sense to hide behind German/EU re-armament.

Even if we get more tanks (because we do have them, a whopping twelve), they're 99% sure going to be part of the Mechanized Brigade, and thus part of the 1st German Panzerdivision. So whether we get tanks or not really doesn't make any political difference.
[close]

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective. And even so, what's the point in spending good money on it simply to hand it over to German control as part of an EU military union?

Not really how an alliance works. That's like saying Belgium might as well have abolished its army in 1914 because Britain would guard its neutrality.

Except there was an obvious military threat in 1914, whereas in 2019 there isn't. We've all reluctantly accepted de facto German dominance of the continent as the price for peace. Not a bad bargain tbh, even if Germany sometimes takes out its own self-loathing on the rest of us.



The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective.

That's what most within NATO think! I think from memory only a few Nations meet their budget requirements for defence......

Yep, the Dutch could very easily have an Irish-style defence force and spend the money on other stuff. If Germany wants a German-run EU military then why should the Dutch pay for it?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 10:39:42 pm by StevenChilton »

Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4703 on: January 07, 2019, 10:35:43 pm »

Because tanks play such a incredible big role in all the conflicts we're fighting today, right? No, they don't.
Because we're not fighting an interstate conflict right now, hello.

 
We send scouts to Mali,
Because we wanted a seat at the Security Council and there was a requirement for an ISR component that fit exactly what the Dutch are good at. it failed, but come on, it's a UN mission, what did we expect.

infantry to the Baltic states,

Mechanised infantry. We sent tanks to Norway with Mechanised infantry. Also the eFP is not there to actually fight. It's an insurance to ther Baltics NATO will fight if the Baltics egt attacked. Sending tanks there that would be destroyed anyway would be a wasted loss.

F-16s to Jordan and ships all over the place.
First one because it was asked for and it was the only low-risk operation we could lay our hands on. Second one because it is literally the most Duitch thing to do.

Tanks would do absolutely nothing and serve purely as a PR-tool. That money can be spend way more effectively. Don't get me wrong, if we would place those tanks in Latvia or Lithuania I'd be all for it. But we won't.
Because of aforementioned reasons. the Dutch CHOSE to not deploy tanks to Afghanistan, in spite of the Norwegians (I think) and the Canadians choosing so anyway.
Just because we don't have a mission that could involves tanks now, doesn't mean we'll ever get one. Serbia is stirring shit again, who know if something blows up anywhere. It is not likely, but it is really not an expensive insurance to have when you need it.
The reasoning you're offering is as if we'd never get a regular war again on the European continent. This is simply too uncertain to tell, and considering other countries aren't selling theirs, we shouldn;t either.

Then again, personally I don't like how the tanks are gone about now in the NL. As a small country we can make ourselves much more relevant elsewhere by jumping into niches, we barely do and that's a shame. Unitl the NL state in their development strategies for the militayr they want to fill exclusively a niche role, then we can do out with the tanks, until then, we need them. Not very hard, but we do.


Quote
Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc?
I'm just gonna assume that question is not meant serious and you can tell the difference between the political and militairy reasons to buy a jet and not a tank. Especially considering the sort of missions we actually perform with our military.
I'll grace it with an answer:
Intel

Same reason we are buying Predators and buying Hornets for Recces. The Netherlands is a budding ISR/intel military.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4704 on: January 07, 2019, 10:38:36 pm »

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective.

The Dutch is more of a military power than you think... Just not in the absolute numbers kind of way.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4705 on: January 07, 2019, 11:00:18 pm »
Quote
Because we're not fighting an interstate conflict right now, hello.

And when we do, our twelve tanks will surely tip the balance.

I know why we perform these missions. It's not like those motives are hidden anyway.

Quote
Also the eFP is not there to actually fight. It's an insurance to ther Baltics NATO will fight if the Baltics egt attacked.

More of a insurance there will be public support for envoking article 5 after there are Dutch and British casualties on TV after a possible Russian attack. But that's pretty much the same thing, I guess. This may sound cynical, but it's one of the best decisions taken in recent years.
Quote
I'll grace it with an answer:
Intel

I have to disagree with you there. Like you said yourselves, airplanes allow you to run low-risk operations. The benefits of showing your involvement in the world with the minimum amount of risk. If you don't have tanks, you can't be asked to send them to some UN mission and get them put out of action by a African childsoldier with a RPG. We don't need our Armed Forces for national defence, just for national interests. Like bombing people in Syria. The decisions to invest in the airforce (and in the military in general) is for political reasons, not for actual military reasons.

Quote
The reasoning you're offering is as if we'd never get a regular war again on the European continent. This is simply too uncertain to tell, and considering other countries aren't selling theirs, we shouldn;t either.

But we did sell them.

Quote
Serbia is stirring shit again

And if they do, like in the 90s, we'll send airplanes to bomb them. We will never send any ground forces to the Balkan ever again. Not after Srebrenica.


Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4706 on: January 07, 2019, 11:28:55 pm »

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective.

The Dutch is more of a military power than you think... Just not in the absolute numbers kind of way.

I agree that the Dutch can obviously make significant contributions to NATO efforts etc. But you're now tying yourselves in to a supranational military union over which you'll have very little control. Is it seriously in the Dutch national interest to pay billions of Euros for military toys that will be controlled from Berlin?

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4707 on: January 07, 2019, 11:34:41 pm »
But they're not. The Brigade doesn't go anywhere or doesn't do anything without approval from the Dutch government. They're not part of the German army and it would literally take the stroke of a pen to abolish the cooperation. Berlin is not controlling anything, just like we're not controlling the German elements within the brigade or the British marines with which we work together a shitton. It's not different from a unified command.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 11:36:24 pm by Duuring »

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4708 on: January 08, 2019, 02:05:40 am »
But they're not. The Brigade doesn't go anywhere or doesn't do anything without approval from the Dutch government. They're not part of the German army and it would literally take the stroke of a pen to abolish the cooperation. Berlin is not controlling anything, just like we're not controlling the German elements within the brigade or the British marines with which we work together a shitton. It's not different from a unified command.

I'm not talking about that but rather a future EU Military Union, which would have to be structured in a way that prevented member states from vetoing deployments. Even

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4709 on: January 08, 2019, 09:41:46 am »
It would have to be? Says who?