Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 637819 times)

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Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3405 on: May 07, 2018, 04:22:56 pm »
Better, but most definitely not good enough.
Mot good enough for what?

To, as an independant military force launch any significant warfighting campaign whatsoever. Without US help.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3406 on: May 07, 2018, 04:27:48 pm »
The only purpose an EU military has is to promote EU federalism. That's it. The enemy is non-existent and if this was being done to enhance EU defence and security you wouldn't integrate into the Bundeswehr of all things.

If Germany can't even run its own military how can it manage everybody else's?

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3407 on: May 07, 2018, 05:34:36 pm »
But the idea I’m proposing isn’t to integrate everything into the budeswehr. Also Russia could be seen as a threat to EU countries depending on who signed up. Enemies are never constant, the army would be there to defend in case we needed it.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3408 on: May 07, 2018, 05:41:17 pm »
It doesn't matter if or who the current threat it. It matters that a rich Europe will always need the means to defend itself- and right now it can't.

The only military that could remotely be considered to join into would have been Great Britain, but even that is too far-fetched to be anything but be a bad joke.

As I said... you need integrated systems to think about it even in rudamentary form.

Look at the Dutch-German cooperation. This system they currently have is barely working as is, and the Dutch and German military are possibly the closes of two cultures you can get (and militarily vastly different, then again the Dutch military is vastly different from any military culture except maybe the Danish, but with 15.000 activ military personnel they're hardly putting a dent in anything) and even on this level they feel like they're just a political experiment with no real combat value.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline McPero

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3409 on: May 07, 2018, 06:11:05 pm »
It doesn't matter if or who the current threat it. It matters that a rich Europe will always need the means to defend itself- and right now it can't.

The only military that could remotely be considered to join into would have been Great Britain, but even that is too far-fetched to be anything but be a bad joke.

As I said... you need integrated systems to think about it even in rudamentary form.

Look at the Dutch-German cooperation. This system they currently have is barely working as is, and the Dutch and German military are possibly the closes of two cultures you can get (and militarily vastly different, then again the Dutch military is vastly different from any military culture except maybe the Danish, but with 15.000 activ military personnel they're hardly putting a dent in anything) and even on this level they feel like they're just a political experiment with no real combat value.
Wait Netherlands have 15k soldiers?

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3410 on: May 07, 2018, 06:12:42 pm »
But the idea I’m proposing isn’t to integrate everything into the budeswehr. Also Russia could be seen as a threat to EU countries depending on who signed up. Enemies are never constant, the army would be there to defend in case we needed it.

But your idea is not what's currently happening. It's all based on integration with the Bundeswehr, a military with only four working Eurofighters, 0 working submarines or A400M transport planes, 95 operational tanks (out of c.300) and god knows what else. It has never once been deployed in serious strength abroad.

Post-Brexit, the only EU military power that could carry out the task is France but it has serious reservations about doing do so. Plus Germany is unwilling to give up political control over its glorified town militia. I doubt Eastern Europe is willing to trust Brussels with its defence either and will stick with the Americans for the foreseeable future.

Oh, and then there's language barriers which make it difficult in practical terms unless they ironically make them all communicate in English (good luck persuading the French to do that).

Offline junedragon

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3411 on: May 07, 2018, 06:26:10 pm »

the Bundeswehr, a military with only four working Eurofighters, 0 working submarines or A400M transport planes, 95 operational tanks (out of c.300) and god knows what else. It has never once been deployed in serious strength abroad.



Nice to know the Bundeswehr has about the same strategic resources as a small US state National Guard
Why am I still here

Offline McPero

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3412 on: May 07, 2018, 07:36:53 pm »
Oh, and then there's language barriers which make it difficult in practical terms unless they ironically make them all communicate in English (good luck persuading the French to do that).
Well Austro-Hungarian/Habsurg army used to be multi-lingual, there were some issues but definitely good example that you can form strong military with Germans, Hungarians (not even Indo-European), Romanians, Slavs. I believe Hungarian part had Hungarian officers and rest had German.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3413 on: May 07, 2018, 07:58:08 pm »
>wants to give example of strong multicultural, multi-lingual army
>gives Austrian-Hungarian army as example
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 07:59:49 pm by Duuring »

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3414 on: May 07, 2018, 08:44:41 pm »
>wants to give example of strong multicultural, multi-lingual army
>gives Austrian-Hungarian army as example

This.

Most obvious modern example is Canada, and it's difficult enough with only two languages and you have stark divisions between French and English speaking units. Officers have to be bilingual too, which is just about possible. Just not feasible in an EU context unless you have an English speaking command structure all the way down to at least company level, plus highly regionalised recruitment.

For all the effort that'd require, and all the nationalist sentiment it'd cause, you're better off just using NATO interoperability and individual national contributions to an EU expeditionary force as and when required.

Offline Conway

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3415 on: May 07, 2018, 10:30:37 pm »
>wants to give example of strong multicultural, multi-lingual army
>gives Austrian-Hungarian army as example

This.

Most obvious modern example is Canada, and it's difficult enough with only two languages and you have stark divisions between French and English speaking units. Officers have to be bilingual too, which is just about possible. Just not feasible in an EU context unless you have an English speaking command structure all the way down to at least company level, plus highly regionalised recruitment.

For all the effort that'd require, and all the nationalist sentiment it'd cause, you're better off just using NATO interoperability and individual national contributions to an EU expeditionary force as and when required.
If we're being honest the Canadian military is basically comprised into two parts, a french speaking part and a bilingual part. The french get their owns units and bases, and everyone else still needs french for promotions.

Offline Olafson

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3416 on: May 07, 2018, 10:44:09 pm »
This is where I step in. Join my personal army. Together we make Europes military great again!

My first order will be to construct 13 brand new aircraft-carriers and put tanks on it. Additionally I propose to develop a new technology that will allow us to launch airplanes from diving submarines. I also want to develop a helicopter that can drive on roads, so that it can use Germanys non existing speedlimit to quickly transport troops through central Europe.

I would also like to introduce you to my new military doctrine. I call it "burgerdonutsandwich" it revolves around the idea that exporting beer cans filled with C4 and remote detonators to foreign countries that we are not at war with, will make them more likely to join our side.

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3417 on: May 07, 2018, 11:12:19 pm »
And by Olaf's rate of development we should have all that by the year 2176.

Offline Olafson

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3418 on: May 07, 2018, 11:34:29 pm »
It won't be FSE developing it, so it will come out!

Offline Council

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3419 on: May 08, 2018, 12:33:58 am »
This is where I step in. Join my personal army. Together we make Europes military great again!

My first order will be to construct 13 brand new aircraft-carriers and put tanks on it. Additionally I propose to develop a new technology that will allow us to launch airplanes from diving submarines. I also want to develop a helicopter that can drive on roads, so that it can use Germanys non existing speedlimit to quickly transport troops through central Europe.

I would also like to introduce you to my new military doctrine. I call it "burgerdonutsandwich" it revolves around the idea that exporting beer cans filled with C4 and remote detonators to foreign countries that we are not at war with, will make them more likely to join our side.
Poshel nahuj