Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 399285 times)

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Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4740 on: January 07, 2019, 11:00:18 pm »
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Because we're not fighting an interstate conflict right now, hello.

And when we do, our twelve tanks will surely tip the balance.

I know why we perform these missions. It's not like those motives are hidden anyway.

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Also the eFP is not there to actually fight. It's an insurance to ther Baltics NATO will fight if the Baltics egt attacked.

More of a insurance there will be public support for envoking article 5 after there are Dutch and British casualties on TV after a possible Russian attack. But that's pretty much the same thing, I guess. This may sound cynical, but it's one of the best decisions taken in recent years.
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I'll grace it with an answer:
Intel

I have to disagree with you there. Like you said yourselves, airplanes allow you to run low-risk operations. The benefits of showing your involvement in the world with the minimum amount of risk. If you don't have tanks, you can't be asked to send them to some UN mission and get them put out of action by a African childsoldier with a RPG. We don't need our Armed Forces for national defence, just for national interests. Like bombing people in Syria. The decisions to invest in the airforce (and in the military in general) is for political reasons, not for actual military reasons.

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The reasoning you're offering is as if we'd never get a regular war again on the European continent. This is simply too uncertain to tell, and considering other countries aren't selling theirs, we shouldn;t either.

But we did sell them.

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Serbia is stirring shit again

And if they do, like in the 90s, we'll send airplanes to bomb them. We will never send any ground forces to the Balkan ever again. Not after Srebrenica.


Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4741 on: January 07, 2019, 11:28:55 pm »

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective.

The Dutch is more of a military power than you think... Just not in the absolute numbers kind of way.

I agree that the Dutch can obviously make significant contributions to NATO efforts etc. But you're now tying yourselves in to a supranational military union over which you'll have very little control. Is it seriously in the Dutch national interest to pay billions of Euros for military toys that will be controlled from Berlin?

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4742 on: January 07, 2019, 11:34:41 pm »
But they're not. The Brigade doesn't go anywhere or doesn't do anything without approval from the Dutch government. They're not part of the German army and it would literally take the stroke of a pen to abolish the cooperation. Berlin is not controlling anything, just like we're not controlling the German elements within the brigade or the British marines with which we work together a shitton. It's not different from a unified command.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 11:36:24 pm by Duuring »

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4743 on: January 08, 2019, 02:05:40 am »
But they're not. The Brigade doesn't go anywhere or doesn't do anything without approval from the Dutch government. They're not part of the German army and it would literally take the stroke of a pen to abolish the cooperation. Berlin is not controlling anything, just like we're not controlling the German elements within the brigade or the British marines with which we work together a shitton. It's not different from a unified command.

I'm not talking about that but rather a future EU Military Union, which would have to be structured in a way that prevented member states from vetoing deployments. Even

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4744 on: January 08, 2019, 09:41:46 am »
It would have to be? Says who?

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4745 on: January 08, 2019, 11:12:18 am »
It would have to be? Says who?

For a whole bunch of reasons.
1) This EU military union is supposed to be about deterring Russia. If you give Putin's mates in Budapest and elsewhere the power of veto over its deployments then that doesn't really work.
2) Having 27 potential vetoes over EU military policy would render it essentially useless
3) France is not about to give Luxembourg or Malta a veto over where it moves its tanks
4) The EU is moving away from the national veto in general anyway

...and most importantly
5) Germany is not going to give up as big a prize as this

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4746 on: January 08, 2019, 12:08:20 pm »
Ah, says you. Okay.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4747 on: January 08, 2019, 01:48:00 pm »
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Because we're not fighting an interstate conflict right now, hello.

And when we do, our twelve tanks will surely tip the balance.

More are coming. There are concrete plans now to expand to batallion size.

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I'll grace it with an answer:
Intel

I have to disagree with you there. Like you said yourselves, airplanes allow you to run low-risk operations. The benefits of showing your involvement in the world with the minimum amount of risk. If you don't have tanks, you can't be asked to send them to some UN mission and get them put out of action by a African childsoldier with a RPG. We don't need our Armed Forces for national defence, just for national interests. Like bombing people in Syria. The decisions to invest in the airforce (and in the military in general) is for political reasons, not for actual military reasons.

Yes it was mainly a political reason to invest in newer aircraft. Yes the decision to go to the F35 was also mostly political. The other, military, side of it, is that the Netherlands, who already have a reputation of having a high efficiency with IMINT (any intel, really), can fly mostly recon flights. The number of aircraft could have been made bigger, but that wasn't the point.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4748 on: January 09, 2019, 01:14:07 am »
Trump still trolling lol
https://www.dw.com/en/trump-administration-downgrades-eu-mission-to-us/a-46990608

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The unannounced move by the US State Department, which has not previously been reported, downgraded the EU delegation's diplomatic status in Washington from member state to international organization.

"We don't exactly know when they did it, because they conveniently forgot to notify us," an EU official who is familiar with the matter told DW in an interview.



Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4749 on: January 09, 2019, 08:56:33 am »
He is actually starting to do harm now... He's literally making this up as he goes. Just like when that journalist asked him if he was going to declare state of emergency over the border wall, he literally got the idea there and then and just throws it out there.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline DaMonkey

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4750 on: January 09, 2019, 09:34:09 am »
You must have amazing insight.
Did you know that if you use 100% of your brain, you get godlike powers? true story.
Did you know that if you use 10% of received donations, you can release BCoF by now. true story

Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4751 on: January 09, 2019, 10:00:26 am »
Yeah I am clairvoyant actually.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline DaMonkey

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4752 on: January 09, 2019, 10:08:22 am »
How could I harness this power?
Did you know that if you use 100% of your brain, you get godlike powers? true story.
Did you know that if you use 10% of received donations, you can release BCoF by now. true story

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4753 on: January 09, 2019, 10:13:12 am »
He is actually starting to do harm now... He's literally making this up as he goes. Just like when that journalist asked him if he was going to declare state of emergency over the border wall, he literally got the idea there and then and just throws it out there.

Nah he's hilarious. Next stop should be targeting Brussels representation at the G7/G20. Why are they even there?

Offline HaroldW

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4754 on: January 09, 2019, 10:27:38 am »


I can appreciate a god-tier troll when I see one