Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 399299 times)

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Offline Olafson

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4725 on: January 06, 2019, 02:40:00 pm »
Germany sold like thousands of their tanks and now suddenly wants more again. Its just things that Politicians do.
 "Oh, we need to get rid of half our military, we no longer need it" - 2 minutes later: "Oh, I think we need a larger military, now that the situation has changed"


So, did the NL actually sell their tanks or did they just decommission them and store them somewhere? I never quite understood why a country would sell perfectly fine military equipment. Wouldn't it make more sense to just store it somewhere, in case you might need it later? It costs more than selling your tanks, but it will still be cheaper and faster than buying it all new.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 02:42:45 pm by Olafson »

Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4726 on: January 06, 2019, 03:26:31 pm »
So, did the NL actually sell their tanks or did they just decommission them and store them somewhere? I never quite understood why a country would sell perfectly fine military equipment. Wouldn't it make more sense to just store it somewhere, in case you might need it later? It costs more than selling your tanks, but it will still be cheaper and faster than buying it all new.

Sold most of them to Norway I believe. And to some shithole coutries.
It is not cheaper to store them. They still need regular maintenance and the location where they're stored needs to be under constant guard.
Getting rid of tanks doesn't mean you're going to get rid of just vehicles. You are getting rid of maintenance infrastructure, spare parts and storage, ammunition and the whole infrastructure behind that, personnel to operate tanks, training facilities plus staff and logistics, staff capacity.

Just storing tanks wouldn't solve the problem of it being expensive to bring them back. The thing that makes it more expensive than just buying new stuff is that it takes a couple of years to get tanks operational in a unit again. The costs are there.
Also, the time tanks are in storage not being used, they're also not being kept current. If you're storing tanks for 8 years, after you've been using them for ten years already, the second they're going to get out of storage, they will require a midlife-cycle upgrade. That is going to cost a couple of million per tank. No the current construction is much cheaper. We steal everything from the German motorpool and only pay for it if the tanks are deployed.
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Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4727 on: January 06, 2019, 04:50:54 pm »
They're not useful because we're not fighting any modern wars in which we need tanks. Where will they be deployed? Mali? Cyprus? I bet they won't even be part of the Baltic mission because that's too expensive. There are a million ways to invest that money better instead of buying maybe a batallion worth of tanks.

We sold our tanks to Finland, after a deal with Indonesia busted.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4728 on: January 06, 2019, 05:29:45 pm »
I thought big bad Russia was waiting in the wings and the EU had to quickly arm itself with its own military?

If the Dutch can't afford tanks then they can't fight a modern war, so what's the point in spending vast sums on your defence budget? Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc? Might as well just have an Irish style defence force, let other countries come to your defence if needed and spend the money elsewhere. I get you usually go in with other partners, but it makes a lot more sense to hide behind German/EU re-armament.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4729 on: January 06, 2019, 06:05:34 pm »
Quote
If the Dutch can't afford tanks then they can't fight a modern war,

Because tanks play such a incredible big role in all the conflicts we're fighting today, right? No, they don't. We send scouts to Mali, infantry to the Baltic states, F-16s to Jordan and ships all over the place. Tanks would do absolutely nothing and serve purely as a PR-tool. That money can be spend way more effectively. Don't get me wrong, if we would place those tanks in Latvia or Lithuania I'd be all for it. But we won't.

Quote
Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc?

I'm just gonna assume that question is not meant serious and you can tell the difference between the political and militairy reasons to buy a jet and not a tank. Especially considering the sort of missions we actually perform with our military.

Quote
I get you usually go in with other partners, but it makes a lot more sense to hide behind German/EU re-armament.

Even if we get more tanks (because we do have them, a whopping twelve), they're 99% sure going to be part of the Mechanized Brigade, and thus part of the 1st German Panzerdivision. So whether we get tanks or not really doesn't make any political difference.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 06:08:03 pm by Duuring »

Offline Olafson

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4730 on: January 06, 2019, 07:52:25 pm »
So, did the NL actually sell their tanks or did they just decommission them and store them somewhere? I never quite understood why a country would sell perfectly fine military equipment. Wouldn't it make more sense to just store it somewhere, in case you might need it later? It costs more than selling your tanks, but it will still be cheaper and faster than buying it all new.

Sold most of them to Norway I believe. And to some shithole coutries.
It is not cheaper to store them. They still need regular maintenance and the location where they're stored needs to be under constant guard.
Getting rid of tanks doesn't mean you're going to get rid of just vehicles. You are getting rid of maintenance infrastructure, spare parts and storage, ammunition and the whole infrastructure behind that, personnel to operate tanks, training facilities plus staff and logistics, staff capacity.

Just storing tanks wouldn't solve the problem of it being expensive to bring them back. The thing that makes it more expensive than just buying new stuff is that it takes a couple of years to get tanks operational in a unit again. The costs are there.
Also, the time tanks are in storage not being used, they're also not being kept current. If you're storing tanks for 8 years, after you've been using them for ten years already, the second they're going to get out of storage, they will require a midlife-cycle upgrade. That is going to cost a couple of million per tank. No the current construction is much cheaper. We steal everything from the German motorpool and only pay for it if the tanks are deployed.

Alright, good arguments there. I did not think about the infrastructure behind that. I admit defeat :P

Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4731 on: January 06, 2019, 08:00:02 pm »
"England Lost to Belgium in the World Cup this year, 2-0..... can we play it again until we get the result we want please! "

Democracy has been mostly forgotten by many in the EU, but thankfully not by everyone. The referendum was voted on, and the remain lost, deal with it!

Out means OUT! (despite the Globalist Elite best efforts)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 08:01:59 pm by Charles Caldwell »

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4732 on: January 06, 2019, 08:11:59 pm »
Don't compare politics and democracy to sports.

Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4733 on: January 06, 2019, 08:17:10 pm »
Don't compare politics and democracy to sports.

Why not? One group didnt get the result they wanted, and wish it played again (the 'Peoples' or I like to say the 'Losers' Vote) thinking they will win the second time around!

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4734 on: January 06, 2019, 08:47:21 pm »
Spoiler
Quote
If the Dutch can't afford tanks then they can't fight a modern war,

Because tanks play such a incredible big role in all the conflicts we're fighting today, right? No, they don't. We send scouts to Mali, infantry to the Baltic states, F-16s to Jordan and ships all over the place. Tanks would do absolutely nothing and serve purely as a PR-tool. That money can be spend way more effectively. Don't get me wrong, if we would place those tanks in Latvia or Lithuania I'd be all for it. But we won't.

Quote
Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc?

I'm just gonna assume that question is not meant serious and you can tell the difference between the political and militairy reasons to buy a jet and not a tank. Especially considering the sort of missions we actually perform with our military.

Quote
I get you usually go in with other partners, but it makes a lot more sense to hide behind German/EU re-armament.

Even if we get more tanks (because we do have them, a whopping twelve), they're 99% sure going to be part of the Mechanized Brigade, and thus part of the 1st German Panzerdivision. So whether we get tanks or not really doesn't make any political difference.
[close]

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective. And even so, what's the point in spending good money on it simply to hand it over to German control as part of an EU military union?

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4735 on: January 06, 2019, 08:50:48 pm »
Spoiler
Quote
If the Dutch can't afford tanks then they can't fight a modern war,

Because tanks play such a incredible big role in all the conflicts we're fighting today, right? No, they don't. We send scouts to Mali, infantry to the Baltic states, F-16s to Jordan and ships all over the place. Tanks would do absolutely nothing and serve purely as a PR-tool. That money can be spend way more effectively. Don't get me wrong, if we would place those tanks in Latvia or Lithuania I'd be all for it. But we won't.

Quote
Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc?

I'm just gonna assume that question is not meant serious and you can tell the difference between the political and militairy reasons to buy a jet and not a tank. Especially considering the sort of missions we actually perform with our military.

Quote
I get you usually go in with other partners, but it makes a lot more sense to hide behind German/EU re-armament.

Even if we get more tanks (because we do have them, a whopping twelve), they're 99% sure going to be part of the Mechanized Brigade, and thus part of the 1st German Panzerdivision. So whether we get tanks or not really doesn't make any political difference.
[close]

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective. And even so, what's the point in spending good money on it simply to hand it over to German control as part of an EU military union?

Not really how an alliance works. That's like saying Belgium might as well have abolished its army in 1914 because Britain would guard its neutrality.

Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4736 on: January 06, 2019, 09:38:28 pm »

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective.

That's what most within NATO think! I think from memory only a few Nations meet their budget requirements for defence......

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4737 on: January 06, 2019, 10:36:44 pm »
Spoiler
Quote
If the Dutch can't afford tanks then they can't fight a modern war,

Because tanks play such a incredible big role in all the conflicts we're fighting today, right? No, they don't. We send scouts to Mali, infantry to the Baltic states, F-16s to Jordan and ships all over the place. Tanks would do absolutely nothing and serve purely as a PR-tool. That money can be spend way more effectively. Don't get me wrong, if we would place those tanks in Latvia or Lithuania I'd be all for it. But we won't.

Quote
Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc?

I'm just gonna assume that question is not meant serious and you can tell the difference between the political and militairy reasons to buy a jet and not a tank. Especially considering the sort of missions we actually perform with our military.

Quote
I get you usually go in with other partners, but it makes a lot more sense to hide behind German/EU re-armament.

Even if we get more tanks (because we do have them, a whopping twelve), they're 99% sure going to be part of the Mechanized Brigade, and thus part of the 1st German Panzerdivision. So whether we get tanks or not really doesn't make any political difference.
[close]

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective. And even so, what's the point in spending good money on it simply to hand it over to German control as part of an EU military union?

Not really how an alliance works. That's like saying Belgium might as well have abolished its army in 1914 because Britain would guard its neutrality.

Except there was an obvious military threat in 1914, whereas in 2019 there isn't. We've all reluctantly accepted de facto German dominance of the continent as the price for peace. Not a bad bargain tbh, even if Germany sometimes takes out its own self-loathing on the rest of us.



The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective.

That's what most within NATO think! I think from memory only a few Nations meet their budget requirements for defence......

Yep, the Dutch could very easily have an Irish-style defence force and spend the money on other stuff. If Germany wants a German-run EU military then why should the Dutch pay for it?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 10:39:42 pm by StevenChilton »

Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4738 on: January 07, 2019, 10:35:43 pm »

Because tanks play such a incredible big role in all the conflicts we're fighting today, right? No, they don't.
Because we're not fighting an interstate conflict right now, hello.

 
We send scouts to Mali,
Because we wanted a seat at the Security Council and there was a requirement for an ISR component that fit exactly what the Dutch are good at. it failed, but come on, it's a UN mission, what did we expect.

infantry to the Baltic states,

Mechanised infantry. We sent tanks to Norway with Mechanised infantry. Also the eFP is not there to actually fight. It's an insurance to ther Baltics NATO will fight if the Baltics egt attacked. Sending tanks there that would be destroyed anyway would be a wasted loss.

F-16s to Jordan and ships all over the place.
First one because it was asked for and it was the only low-risk operation we could lay our hands on. Second one because it is literally the most Duitch thing to do.

Tanks would do absolutely nothing and serve purely as a PR-tool. That money can be spend way more effectively. Don't get me wrong, if we would place those tanks in Latvia or Lithuania I'd be all for it. But we won't.
Because of aforementioned reasons. the Dutch CHOSE to not deploy tanks to Afghanistan, in spite of the Norwegians (I think) and the Canadians choosing so anyway.
Just because we don't have a mission that could involves tanks now, doesn't mean we'll ever get one. Serbia is stirring shit again, who know if something blows up anywhere. It is not likely, but it is really not an expensive insurance to have when you need it.
The reasoning you're offering is as if we'd never get a regular war again on the European continent. This is simply too uncertain to tell, and considering other countries aren't selling theirs, we shouldn;t either.

Then again, personally I don't like how the tanks are gone about now in the NL. As a small country we can make ourselves much more relevant elsewhere by jumping into niches, we barely do and that's a shame. Unitl the NL state in their development strategies for the militayr they want to fill exclusively a niche role, then we can do out with the tanks, until then, we need them. Not very hard, but we do.


Quote
Why bother buying loads of F-35s etc?
I'm just gonna assume that question is not meant serious and you can tell the difference between the political and militairy reasons to buy a jet and not a tank. Especially considering the sort of missions we actually perform with our military.
I'll grace it with an answer:
Intel

Same reason we are buying Predators and buying Hornets for Recces. The Netherlands is a budding ISR/intel military.
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Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #4739 on: January 07, 2019, 10:38:36 pm »

The point I'm making is that the Dutch might be better off giving up any pretence of being a military power and simply spend the money on other projects. If others have agreed to die on your behalf then it's viable from a security perspective.

The Dutch is more of a military power than you think... Just not in the absolute numbers kind of way.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.