BoP: Napoleonic Wars (Out-of-character Thread) [Live]

[BabyJesus]

Any idea when this will start? I'm ready to take over the world

[Volk]

Any idea when this will start? I'm ready to take over the world

https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=33229.msg1434259#msg1434259

[Emperor Napoleon]

Spoiler

Emperor Napoleon, have you seen this page?
http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/napoleonic-till-1826-janissary-led-ottoman-army/
It's mostly about uniforms, not a numbers, but maybe you can use their sources to find some more informations. Or at least get some overall idea about Ottomans' army from this period.

And Volk, concerning Ottomans, you've written in main game topic, that Ottomans cannot reform their army. Sultan Selim III was the one who tried to reform Ottoman army, he introduced so called New Model Army, changed organisation of military, reduced role of Janissaries, etc. His reforms were one of the reasons of Janissary rebellion and his assassination in 1807. So removing them from the game seems to be strange idea to me. Why have you done so?

And also I may try to make a simple header tomorrow if you want.

And Volk, concerning Ottomans, you've written in main game topic, that Ottomans cannot reform their army. Sultan Selim III was the one who tried to reform Ottoman army, he introduced so called New Model Army, changed organisation of military, reduced role of Janissaries, etc. His reforms were one of the reasons of Janissary rebellion and his assassination in 1807. So removing them from the game seems to be strange idea to me. Why have you done so?

By reform military I mainly meant tactics/doctine wise. At the start of the war of the third coalition the allied powers all used (by Napoleon's standards) outdated tactics; mainly the super linear way they used infantry (those really still and stagnant Fredericken Lines focused on fire rather than the more attack-focused columns and carres), their disposition towards artillery (Grand Battery & horse artillery), the piecemeal use of cavalry, the whole Frederick era system of logistics, etc. The whole "reform" mechanic is mainly to give France an early edge in the beginning due to new tactics but allows the other powers to catch up.

Ottomans did do reforms it is true, mainly the Nizam-ı Cedid reforms, however the new army was both very scarcely used and was almost always impeded by conservative Turk ministers, generals, the Yeniceri, etc. Plus even though they were trained in western tactics, the tactics of the leaders and military overall remained "old". IE over reliance on the initial charge of cavalry like in previous centuries & the Yeniceri corps being the backbone of the infantry with basically levies supporting it. Plus, if the player did try to reform their military to get the Napoleonic tactics bonus, I'd have to do massive Yeniceri rebellions that would distract me from the main affairs of Europe, be nearly impossible for the player (Napoleon) to beat (considering the New Model Army at its peak was about 25,000 strong), and just be another thing on my plate to worry about. I figured I could just simplify matters by just keeping the Ottomans from getting that bonus.

If Napoleon really wants to try the whole reform thing or you guys just want to allow Ottomans to reform I can change it. Just remember that it's another thing I'll have to worry about, mainly because every nation but the Ottoman Empire can reform without having massive rebellions. Keeping the Ottomans from reforming their military doesn't mean I won't do some of the key historical flavor events (like Selim III's assassination), it just means they won't be able to get that +1 bonus in rolls that everyone else might enjoy.

[close]

Raddeo does make a point, Selim was the first Sultan to try and reform the Ottoman army, but it wasn't successful mainly because generals, ministers and most importantly the actual soldiers (like Volk said) didn't like being trained to western standards.

Personally, I'd like the option to reform, but I might not even bother especially if its just going to result with a rebellion.


Thanks Raddeo for that link, will have a proper read through today

[Ted]

Also Ted Bavaria is bad. Only 33,000 troops. Who even cares if their some of the most highly trained soldiers in Germany

Nope, that's wrong. 33.000 marched to Russia, however the Bavarian Army had about 60.000-65.000 men alone in the professional army, they were able to raise even more men for the field while keeping the nation going when needed. Let's not forget that Bavaria rekt Austria hard.... Since 1805 Bavaria had to bring up 30.000 men for the French cause all the time, but the Bavarian army itself was much larger.


These are the infantry divisions that marched to Russia in 1812:


19. Division General Deroy (Generalstab: Major von Gravenreuth)

1. Brigade Generalmajor von Siebein
1. Leichtes Infanteriebataillon (Major Gedoni)    16 Offiziere - 581 Mann
1. Linieninfanterie-Regiment König (Oberst Baron Ströhl)    38 Offiziere - 1.514 Mann
9. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Ysenburg (Oberst de la Motte)    41 Offiziere - 1.507 Mann

2. Brigade Generalmajor von Raglovich
3. Leichtes Infanteriebataillon (Major Bernklau)    19 Offiziere - 745 Mann
4. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Sachsen-Hildburghausen (Oberst von Zoller)    39 Offiziere - 1.444 Mann
10. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Junker (Oberst Graf Preysing)    37 Offiziere - 1.473 Mann

3. Brigade Generalmajor Graf Rechberg
6. Leichtes Infanteriebataillon (Major La Roche)    20 Offiziere - 1.009 Mann
8. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Herzog Pius (Oberst Wreden)    37 Offiziere - 1.272 Mann


20. Division General Graf von Wrede (Generalstab: Oberst von Comeau)

1. Brigade Generalmajor von Vincenti (später Generalmajor Minucci)
2. Leichtes Infanteriebataillon (Major Treuberg)    21 Offiziere - 710 Mann
2. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Kronprinz (Oberst Graf Spaur)    41 Offiziere - 1.513 Mann
6. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Herzog Wilhelm (Oberst von Deroy)    36 Offiziere - 1.528 Mann

2. Brigade Generalmajor Beckers (später Generalmajor von Vincenti)
4. Leichtes Infanteriebataillon (Major Theobald)    19 Offiziere - 732 Mann
3. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Prinz Carl (Oberst Graf Waldkirch)    37 Offiziere - 1.508 Mann
7. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Löwenstein-Werthheim (Oberst Maillot de la Treille)    37 Offiziere - 1.481 Mann

3. Brigade Oberst Baron Habermann
5. Leichtes Infanteriebataillon (Major Buttler)    13 Offiziere - 460 Mann
5. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Preysing (Oberst Baron Habermann)    39 Offiziere - 1.504 Mann
11. Linieninfanterie-Regiment Kinkel (Oberst Graf Dallwigk)    39 Offiziere - 1.528 Mann


Both Divisions also had cavalry and artillery, I could not find the exact numbers though. However, all in all 33.000 men as you said - after years of war, let's not forget this!


However the infantry regiments went to Russia with one batallion out of two only, the other one was kept in Bavaria. That means that more then 20.000 additional men of the professional line infantry were stationed in Bavaria to be able to defend the homeland against a possible Austrian attack.



Earlier in 1809 the Bavarian army consisted out of the following troops:

    13 Linien-Infanterie-Regimentern
    12 Reserve-Bataillons
    7 leichten Infanterie-Bataillons
    2 freiwilligen Jäger-Bataillons zu Fuß
    1 freiwilligen Jäger-Corps zu Pferd
    2 Dragoner-Regimenter
    4 Chevauxlegers-Regimenter
    20 Batterien Artillerie.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Summing up to about 55.000-60.000 professional soldiers

+ The Royal Guards with about 3000 men, both cavalry and infantry
+ The Gendarmerie with about 2000 men, both cavalry and infantry
+ Professional Mountain-Riflemen (Gebirgsschützen, about 7000 men).
+ The National Militia (Every man up to 40)





Bavaria also was much more advanced in the cultural and technical sector then Austria or Russia, the Electorate and later Kingdom of Bavaria was very very modern and the FIRST ONE to have cartographed a full detailed map of itself.


So, to end it: As I said, Bavaria was much stronger then most people know. The German States had the most citizens in all Europe. If they were united in one state they would have easily been the major power in the world.

[DoctorWarband]

tl:dr
I am Ted, I am a proud German, here look at numbers

[Cazasar]

tl:dr
I am Ted, I am a proud German, here look at numbers

Are you jealous?

[DoctorWarband]

tl:dr
I am Ted, I am a proud German, here look at numbers

Are you jealous?

Nah m8

[The Mighty McLovin]

muh British navy

[BabyJesus]

Can you post your source Ted? I can't seem to find anything even close to those numbers. I hoghest I found was 37,000 (33000 in the march to Russia, 4,000 stayed back). And only 4,000 made it back from Russia. They did form another army, but that one sucked and got rekt. I couldn't find any troop numbers for that one

Side note: I went to the 5th page of Google. Do you know how scary that is?

[Volk]

Can you post your source Ted? I can't seem to find anything even close to those numbers.

[Ted]

Can you post your source Ted? I can't seem to find anything even close to those numbers. I hoghest I found was 37,000 (33000 in the march to Russia, 4,000 stayed back). And only 4,000 made it back from Russia. They did form another army, but that one sucked and got rekt. I couldn't find any troop numbers for that one

Side note: I went to the 5th page of Google. Do you know how scary that is?

Yup, I'm going to post it after dinner   


Edit:

Here you go, but as I told you the stuff is in German

http://www.napoleon-online.de/armee_bayern_infanterie1812.html
http://www.napoleonwiki.de/index.php?title=Bayerische_Armee_(1809)
http://www.napoleonwiki.de/index.php?title=Bayerische_Armee
http://www.bayerische-staatszeitung.de/staatszeitung/unser-bayern/detailansicht-unser-bayern/artikel/thraenen-und-wehmut.html
https://books.google.de/books?id=wNMjCQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false


And information about the Bavarian army given in the following books:

Alois Schmid & Katharina Weigand "Bayern mitten in Europa - Vom Frühmittelalter bis ins 20.Jhd"
Thomas Schuler: "Napoleon und Bayern"
Eckart Kleßmann: "Die Verlorenen - Die Soldaten in Napoleons Rußlandfeldzug"
Andreas Platthaus: "1813 Die Völkerschlacht und das Ende der Welt"
Dominic Lieven: "Russland gegen Napoleon"

+ dozens of other books, but the five listed above are my main sources for the Bavarian situation during the Napoleonic Wars.


However let me make this clear here: Bavaria never moved more then 45.000 men into the field in ONE army during the Napoleonic Wars (at least as far as I am aware of), but the Bavarian army itself was much larger. English sources tend to use the 33k-35k (depends on the source) Bavarian soldiers that took part in Russia as if they were the whole Bavarian army - in fact, they were not. These 35k were the soldiers under direct French command, but not the whole Bavarian army. There were multiple thousands of regular soldiers in Tirol as well as in the Bavarian mainland - plus the Gebirgsschützen and other things. Only a fool would send all men far away when you  still have possible enemies - e. g. Austria - on your borders.

[BabyJesus]

Can you post your source Ted? I can't seem to find anything even close to those numbers. I hoghest I found was 37,000 (33000 in the march to Russia, 4,000 stayed back). And only 4,000 made it back from Russia. They did form another army, but that one sucked and got rekt. I couldn't find any troop numbers for that one

Side note: I went to the 5th page of Google. Do you know how scary that is?

Yup, I'm going to post it after dinner   

im just gonna post do you don't double post and get banned

[Ted]

im just gonna post do you don't double post and get banned

Thx 

Here you go, but as I told you the stuff is in German

http://www.napoleon-online.de/armee_bayern_infanterie1812.html
http://www.napoleonwiki.de/index.php?title=Bayerische_Armee_(1809)
http://www.napoleonwiki.de/index.php?title=Bayerische_Armee
http://www.bayerische-staatszeitung.de/staatszeitung/unser-bayern/detailansicht-unser-bayern/artikel/thraenen-und-wehmut.html
https://books.google.de/books?id=wNMjCQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false


And information about the Bavarian army given in the following books:

Alois Schmid & Katharina Weigand "Bayern mitten in Europa - Vom Frühmittelalter bis ins 20.Jhd"
Thomas Schuler: "'Napoleon und Bayern"
Eckart Kleßmann: "Die Verlorenen - Die Soldaten in Napoleons Rußlandfeldzug"
Andreas Platthaus: "1813 Die Völkerschlacht und das Ende der Welt"
Dominic Lieven: "Russland gegen Napoleon"

+ dozens of other books, but the five listed above are my main sources for the Bavarian situation during the Napoleonic Wars.


However let me make this clear here: Bavaria never moved more then 45.000 men into the field in ONE army during the Napoleonic Wars (at least as far as I am aware of), but the Bavarian army itself was much larger. English sources tend to use the 33k-35k (depends on the source) Bavarian soldiers that took part in Russia as if they were the whole Bavarian army - in fact, they were not. These 35k were the soldiers under direct French command, but not the whole Bavarian army. There were multiple thousands of regular soldiers in Tirol as well as in the Bavarian mainland - plus the Gebirgsschützen and other things. Only a fool would send all men far away when you  still have possible enemies - e. g. Austria - on your borders.

[Volk]

You're getting 30k, at most 30 & some change. I don't see where you're getting these imaginary 30 thousand standing Bavarians, all of my sources and yours say that the Bavarian army was about 30k & some change strong.

I think the "ghost" 30k you're referring to are the men raised to replenish losses of the Bavarian army. In which case yes Bavaria raised 60+ thousand men throughout the Napoleonic Wars but really the army (as a whole) never cracked the 40k limit. Plus this is all after conquests, treaties, & awesome reforms including conscription reforms that Bavaria undertook, so really at start, January 1804, you're army is about/slightly under 30k. Obviously it will grow/wane following game events. At the moment (start) your army's in the 20-30k range & can grow obv based on game events. This isn't power gaming either, it's just history.

Or you can go ahead and raise 60k or more men ignoring history, at which case don't rage when you lose men & can't replenish because you used up all your manpower. ( Remember we're only playing about 10 years Cough coughEU4 HoI4)

Same kinda goes for everyone. "Men raised" is over the whole period of the Napoleonic Wars, but "King of Bavaria and his 22 thousand bayonets" is that many at that time.

[Ted]

You're getting 30k, at most 30 & some change. I don't see where you're getting these imaginary 30 thousand standing Bavarians, all of my sources and yours say that the Bavarian army was about 30k & some change strong.

I think the "ghost" 30k you're referring to are the men raised to replenish losses of the Bavarian army. In which case yes Bavaria raised 60+ thousand men throughout the Napoleonic Wars but really the army (as a whole) never cracked the 40k limit. Plus this is all after conquests, treaties, & awesome reforms including conscription reforms that Bavaria undertook, so really at start, January 1804, you're army is about/slightly under 30k. Obviously it will grow/wane following game events. At the moment (start) your army's in the 20-30k range & can grow obv based on game events. This isn't power gaming either, it's just history.

Or you can go ahead and raise 60k or more men ignoring history, at which case don't rage when you lose men & can't replenish because you used up all your manpower. ( Remember we're only playing about 10 years Cough coughEU4 HoI4)

Same kinda goes for everyone. "Men raised" is over the whole period of the Napoleonic Wars, but "King of Bavaria and his 22 thousand bayonets" is that many at that time.

I'm fine with this. But just to make this history-wise clear, Bavaria was running on some kind of conscription-madness where they recruited tons of people although they had only 4 Million citizens. The army was in fact as large as I said, but as you said if they would have lost these 60k they would have had real problems to reinforce.
They sent only 33k to Russia (this number allready has the 1812 reinforcements counted in), but they still had troops left.
At the start of the game Bavaria still is an Electorate anyways and therefore far away from the strong Kingdom-times - but I just wanted to point out the real numbers of the Bavarian army on its peak to BabyJ Doesn't mean that you would have 60k on the start, this would be false indeed.