Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 529372 times)

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Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1785 on: October 07, 2017, 04:49:38 pm »
Where you from, Pierce?

I doubt the even the boys at CGHQ could solve this mystery!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 04:51:11 pm by Gordo »

Offline Piercee

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1786 on: October 07, 2017, 05:39:45 pm »
When they make changes to military budgets it's usually technical equipment etc anyway right? Like they buy more choppers, missiles and so on, not better backpacks lol

Yeah. Those backpacks, like all equipment, have a life expectancy. They're not going to be replaced before their time.


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Not always, basic infantry equipment is actually something that is often upgraded on, or atleast should be since alot of countries do it like this.
New weapon lines are being tested for that reason, new uniforms are constantly being developed for that reason and overall equipment like vests + helmets were done in that exact reason.

Just because they do tests, doesn't mean they actually get purchased. Those tests usually are done by private companies who want to make money, not the actual militairy.

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Look at the middle-east, CQB happens every day. You can only do that with infantry, that's why infantry equipment needs to be also top notch to compete.
Like I'm glad my country's army uses the HK417 for example, it's a good rifle. Now we just need more fitting uniforms for tactical purposes, our armour plating in our vests is fine.

You're thinking from the perspective of a general, not of a politician. If we were to update our army everytime something better is created, you'd be spending money every year on new gear. It's not how it works. When it is time to replace a certain item (Its life expectancy has run out), it's decided with what to replace it. A compromise between quality and price is found, and because it's so easy to defund the army (Because they don't strike), usually it's the price that is the most important factor. And more often then not, it doesn't actually get replaced until long after its life expectancy because 'hey you're not gonna throw away this perfectly almost always working radio?!!!".

The testing actually leads to new weapon lines being developed, Russia just did it aswell with the AK12/AK15  that is competing with the A545.
They do testing and then whichever guns proves to be the best in every test will be the one which will be massively produced for their army.
It's also not about updating everytime something new is created, ofcourse that'd be a huge money sink since new stuff gets released all the time.
But when you're using the same uniforms from the 90s then it's actually time for upgrading imho. Uniforms don't really ''break'' but they can actually prove to be less effective overtime as other countries show their new camouflages being better to cover surroundings than your current uniforms are.
That's the whole case with the Dutch Woodland camo, it's quite outdated and it's so easy to get nowadays that sometimes it can also be hard to identify which troops are which.
Rebels own woodland pretty much all over the place.

I'd still say that if the budget goes up then the Dutch army aswell could get uniforms, they have been thinking about it for a few years and tested a few uniforms. It's said that a new uniform will be fully implemented between 2017-2018 although I have to wait to see that for myself since I am not entirely sure if they'll follow up on their promises this time.

The army could strike though but I guess it'd cause a heavy backlash, it's not something Western militaries do quite often but I remember seeing documentaries about militaries in the regions of Africa just deciding to say ''fuck it'' and leave with the people who didn't agree with the payment they were receiving. Quite funny to watch actually.


Also I'm Dutch, I come from quite a military family so that's why I'm interested in this. Trying to enlist myself aswell.



Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1787 on: October 07, 2017, 06:31:05 pm »
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The testing actually leads to new weapon lines being developed, Russia just did it aswell with the AK12/AK15  that is competing with the A545.
They do testing and then whichever guns proves to be the best in every test will be the one which will be massively produced for their army.

But that's not testing to create a good gun. That's just part of the decision-making process to decide which gun you're gonna order.

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The army could strike though but I guess it'd cause a heavy backlash, it's not something Western militaries do quite often but I remember seeing documentaries about militaries in the regions of Africa just deciding to say ''fuck it'' and leave with the people who didn't agree with the payment they were receiving. Quite funny to watch actually.

There's a difference between an organized strike and just deserting.

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That's the whole case with the Dutch Woodland camo, it's quite outdated and it's so easy to get nowadays that sometimes it can also be hard to identify which troops are which.
Rebels own woodland pretty much all over the place.

Considering we've been fighting insurrectionists and doing peacekeeper missions ever since the 90s, that didn't really have priority. Now that we're moving back to a conventional warfare focus, a camo-update is quite possible. But that doesn't mean the design of the uniforms still won't be shitty as fuck because they're made on the cheap.

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1788 on: October 07, 2017, 06:41:26 pm »
In other news, there's been yet another terrorist attack in London:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41538762

I feel this is worth mentioning considering all the ridicule that British comedians and pseudo-intellectuals alike have been firing at Americans over their gun laws. The hypocrisy is palpable, given the daily occurrence of knife and acid attacks in the south east. Clearly there's more at work here than simply having access to firearms.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1789 on: October 07, 2017, 06:55:57 pm »
But having sensible gunlaws wouldn't hurt.

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1790 on: October 07, 2017, 07:00:37 pm »
Except how many gun attacks do you see in the UK? Not many. It's not hypocritical it's just common sense. Stricter laws on acid are coming to pass and I'm pretty sure it's already illegal to carry large knives in public. Yes that doesn't stop knife crime but it certainly makes it easier to police.

And as far as I know, the attacker wasn't carrying a gun and, as you can see, their effectiveness was severly dampened. The Las Vegas shooter wouldn't have killed nearly 60 people if he didn't have access to the weapons he did.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 07:08:11 pm by Toffee Lad »

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1791 on: October 07, 2017, 07:31:03 pm »
But having sensible gunlaws wouldn't hurt.

The current bump stock workaround is moronic, it's true. I back any legislation that corrects access to them. But legislation against large firearms won't make a dent in the amount of gun crime plaguing the US since the majority of deaths are caused by small arms used by thugs and gangsters in the inner cities. In order to start tackling gun crime, the government would have to ban all firearms and start removing the existing ones from circulation. That's a forlorn and foolish pursuit, given the sheer number of all guns known to man that currently reside in the states. Then there's the very wealthy gun lobby, but I think that's been discussed already.

Except how many gun attacks do you see in the UK? Not many. It's not hypocritical it's just common sense. Stricter laws on acid are coming to pass and I'm pretty sure it's already illegal to carry large knives in public. Yes that doesn't stop knife crime but it certainly makes it easier to police.

You're reducing the problem significantly; criminals and thugs in the southern English cities are killing each other and innocents by any means necessary, they are not dependent on one method of murder. Not a week goes by where there isn't an attack committed with acid, blades of all kinds, or even a car/truck as we're seeing as of late. British legislation against weaponry can't keep up with the crude innovation of our criminals, becoming more and more ineffective with time.   

As for Las Vegas: I could just as easily argue that even if the United States had strict firearm laws, Paddock could have acquired guns via the black market (there's plenty of cheap guns flowing in from the south). Paris has very strict gun laws - you need a hunting or sporting license which needs to be repeatedly renewed via a psychological evaluation - but that didn't stop the Bataclan massacre. Cunning and patient terrorists who seek mass murder are not often stopped by legislation.

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1792 on: October 07, 2017, 07:35:17 pm »
No but France doesn't have a major gun attack multiple times a year, every year. He may have acquired the guns through the black market, true, but it would have been much harder. Britain has an issue with crime, but people aren't being mown down by gunmen every other week.

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1793 on: October 07, 2017, 07:48:38 pm »
On the contrary, France doesn't border a crime ridden country that is home to the cartel. I doubt there's crates full of cheap rifles and small arms coming in from Germany.

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1794 on: October 07, 2017, 07:52:02 pm »
Alright well how many of America's guns come from Mexico?

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1795 on: October 07, 2017, 08:08:01 pm »
It's safe to assume Chicago gangsters and the like are not purchasing them legally.

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1796 on: October 07, 2017, 08:10:55 pm »
Right so you don't have any actual evidence. A quick google search brings up results telling me that the majority of mass shooters obtained their firearms legally.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1797 on: October 07, 2017, 08:13:07 pm »
On the contrary, France doesn't border a crime ridden country that is home to the cartel. I doubt there's crates full of cheap rifles and small arms coming in from Germany.

Poland and other ex-Communist Block countries are a haven for illegal weapons. Pretty much the entirety of Dutch organized crime is armed with AKs. So actually, yes, there are.

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1798 on: October 07, 2017, 08:41:39 pm »
Right so you don't have any actual evidence. A quick google search brings up results telling me that the majority of mass shooters obtained their firearms legally.

You're correct, I sadly do not have any documentation on the exact number of illicit firearms coming from Mexico into the United States. In case you didn't know, illegal firearms are not registered. And now it seems we've switched from the majority of gun criminals to mass shooters. Nice.


Poland and other ex-Communist Block countries are a haven for illegal weapons. Pretty much the entirety of Dutch organized crime is armed with AKs. So actually, yes, there are.

There's a clear-cut difference between old weapons being circulated like in formerly communist countries, and weapons being produced in addition to being circulated like in countries south of North America.

As for the Netherlands:


So as I thought, not nearly comparable to the scale amount of illicit firearms in the US.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread
« Reply #1799 on: October 07, 2017, 10:06:12 pm »
Various things to keep in mind re: gun control.
1) Take away the guns and they'll find other ways to kill one another. In London someone is stabbed to death on average every 6 days. London police respond to stabbing incidents on average 5 times a day. Of course mass shootings are rare in the UK as a result of strict gun control, but it doesn't do much to reduce gang related violence which is where the bulk of the casualties are.
2) Gun control just isn't going to work in the USA, a country where there are already more guns than people. You can do various things to make the rules tighter but it's still going to be very easy for someone living there to get a gun.
3) I suspect this is more to do with the fairly poor way the US treats those with mental health issues. Americans have always had the right to bear arms yet mass shootings have only been a significant problem since the 1970s. The safest decade in modern American history was the 1950s when you had mass gun ownership, even laxer gun control laws than you have now, and an adult population with a higher degree of military experience than any previous generation.