Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 526595 times)

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Offline McPero

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3615 on: May 26, 2018, 10:14:40 am »
Damn, bad news coming out of Ireland re: legalising abortion.
Yeah because it’s bad that a foetus with a fatal abnormality can be terminated /s

That's an incredibly minor aspect of it.
It’s really not at all. Many Irish women travel to the UK every year to terminate their pregnancies due to things like fatal abnormalities or pregnancies caused via rape or incest. Under the previous amendment all of those reasons were disregarded despite the obvious health impacts of both the feutus and potentially the mother.
Well abortion can cause infertility, that's about it.

Offline Furrnox

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3616 on: May 26, 2018, 11:14:30 am »
Abortions aren't just going to stop because you make it illegal it will just make it more dangerous for the women who seek them. The US is an example of this.

Offline Olafson

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3617 on: May 26, 2018, 11:40:57 am »
I wish I had been aborted.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3618 on: May 26, 2018, 12:00:46 pm »
Abortions aren't just going to stop because you make it illegal it will just make it more dangerous for the women who seek them. The US is an example of this.

This.

Offline McPero

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3619 on: May 26, 2018, 01:08:45 pm »
Abortions aren't just going to stop because you make it illegal it will just make it more dangerous for the women who seek them. The US is an example of this.
And Argentina

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3620 on: May 26, 2018, 02:30:18 pm »
Abortions aren't just going to stop because you make it illegal it will just make it more dangerous for the women who seek them. The US is an example of this.

Same goes for murder, rape, armed robbery...society has to make a moral choice about what it wants to oppose via the law.

England and Wales have c.200,000 abortion procedures per year, over a third of which are carried out on women who have already had it done at least once before. Roughly a quarter of all UK pregnancies end in abortion. This is not a good thing, and quite apart from anything else these are human lives.

Fetal abnormalities/risk to the mother/etc account for a tiny percentage of cases. Abortion is largely there for selfish people, particularly would-be fathers, who don't want to take responsibility for their actions.   


Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3621 on: May 26, 2018, 02:46:39 pm »
We have to remember though, that, up until a certain point, a foetus is not aware and is simply a clump of cells incapable of survival outside the uterus. The amendment in the Irish constitution made it illegal in all of the cases that I mentioned to abort a pregnancy, which is hardly fair considering the circumstances and the legal line should not be so black and white even in the most conservative countries. The debate about simple unplanned pregnancies being aborted is a long and detailed one considering the age at which a foetus becomes a baby is often up to debate by different groups. The point that I'm trying to make is that, regardless of your stance on normal abortions, these extreme circumstances should, at the very least, be granted exemptions from the abortion ban, which, under current Irish law, they are not.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3622 on: May 26, 2018, 03:39:12 pm »
Much the same as people in a vegetative state hooked up to life-support then?

To an extent I agree with your other point. Seems to me when a mother's life is at risk, even though that's incredibly rare, abortion should be possible. I'm not a fan of aborting a disabled baby however (that's eugenics) and I think you have to have strict punishments for medical professionals who cheat the system. I think the UK's pre-1967 abortion laws (yes, it was legal before 1967) are preferable to what we have now.

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3623 on: May 26, 2018, 03:42:46 pm »
Much the same as people in a vegetative state hooked up to life-support then?

To an extent I agree with your other point. Seems to me when a mother's life is at risk, even though that's incredibly rare, abortion should be possible. I'm not a fan of aborting a disabled baby however (that's eugenics) and I think you have to have strict punishments for medical professionals who cheat the system. I think the UK's pre-1967 abortion laws (yes, it was legal before 1967) are preferable to what we have now.
The life support case is a bad comparison considering people on life-support are taken off it often. As has already been mentioned, if regular abortion was made illegal, it would still occur but in more dangerous ways. By having it the way it is now, at least women aren't putting themselves at risk with life threatening procedures with shady doctors.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3624 on: May 26, 2018, 04:06:18 pm »
Much the same as people in a vegetative state hooked up to life-support then?

To an extent I agree with your other point. Seems to me when a mother's life is at risk, even though that's incredibly rare, abortion should be possible. I'm not a fan of aborting a disabled baby however (that's eugenics) and I think you have to have strict punishments for medical professionals who cheat the system. I think the UK's pre-1967 abortion laws (yes, it was legal before 1967) are preferable to what we have now.
The life support case is a bad comparison considering people on life-support are taken off it often. As has already been mentioned, if regular abortion was made illegal, it would still occur but in more dangerous ways. By having it the way it is now, at least women aren't putting themselves at risk with life threatening procedures with shady doctors.

Alright, let me ask you this: how many British women, on average, do you think died per year from 'illegal' abortions pre-1967?

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3625 on: May 26, 2018, 04:09:30 pm »
I don’t know the exact number but I trust the women campaigners who lived and the time and went through it themselves. It did happen.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3626 on: May 26, 2018, 04:10:28 pm »
Just guess, I'm interested to know how many you think died

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3627 on: May 26, 2018, 04:14:33 pm »
Well certain British studies have put current unsafe abortion numbers and about 70,000 per year although that may be worldwide. Either way the risks are amplified.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3628 on: May 26, 2018, 04:19:20 pm »
70,000 a year?

In the UK pre-1967 it was 30 deaths a year from illegal abortions. At the same time, on average, 20 women were dying annually from *legal* abortion procedures gone wrong.

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3629 on: May 26, 2018, 04:25:24 pm »
70,000 a year?

In the UK pre-1967 it was 30 deaths a year from illegal abortions. At the same time, on average, 20 women were dying annually from *legal* abortion procedures gone wrong.
But you’re not including other complications besides death. The world health organisation supports the legalisation of abortion and says that around 4-13% of maternal deaths can be attributed to unsafe abortions. They also say that most of these can be prevented with legal and safe abortion methods.