Author Topic: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09  (Read 10445 times)

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Offline Witold

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Offline Fietta

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2022, 12:07:47 am »
"better way of determining skill"

Very debatable point depending on the playstyles of some teams you may throw more rounds to achieve an aggressive victory, or in the first group stage matches when some people are still warming up to the teams chemistry on the day.

I also do feel this takes away from the importance of a 4-4 scenario or being on "Match point". Or even a comeback becomes less important as you don't really need to win to go through.

Although you may argue each round is more important it's nice to have a "cushion" of some rounds and in my opinion it makes it more thrilling when you do reach that 4-4 and are fighting to go through.

Your tournament you do you, however I don't see why now you are trying to change a normal precedent in tournaments, feels like a trying to be different moment for the sake of it.

You could argue that Blitz is changing it for the sake of it, however, you're arguing for the sake of it.

Here's a delicious scenario which I'd be glad to hear a response.

Here is team 1:

4 - 5 4 - 5 4 - 5 5 - 0 (against team 2)

17/20 rounds won 85% round win rate

Here is team 2:

5 - 4 5 - 4 0 - 5 0 - 5

10/20 rounds won 50% round win rate

So, in the case above, Team 1 is CLEARLY more dominant, not only did they beat the second team 5 - 0, all the other matches were extremely close which suggests that they still have a shot against any team they face, unlike team two who was clearly only dominant against potential weaker teams. If you were being smart, the last round although intense, shouldn't determine a team's skill, in most tournaments if a final is 10 - 9, the fight was good, however, doesn't mean that one team was CLEARLY stronger than the other, however losing 5 - 0 does show the other team being more dominant.

In this case however, based on wins, team 2 would go through and if we're being logical, would lose harder than team 1. Groups exist to determine which teams are the strongest to go to the qualifiers and basing it on rounds won shows dominance across all teams rather than winning against two teams and being shit against the other two. If you're arguing about that last 4 - 4 round in groups matters more than being stomped, then you're deluded, especially if you're being stomped by the team that had closer matches and beat you. Cushion rounds shouldn't exist, it's a tournament qualifier for crying out loud, there shouldn't be time to play one handed.

A comeback would seem just as important in a round based format, because if you're 1 - 4 down, then you need all the rounds you can get, the same logic applies with wins, it's why once you've won two matches, you can just AFK the other two and play your shit players (which plenty of teams do), whilst in a round based format you have to get as many rounds as possible.

Seems like a no brainer to me, plenty of smooth brainers don't seem to like change, however big or small.

Very debatable point depending on the playstyles of some teams you may throw more rounds to achieve an aggressive victory, or in the first group stage matches when some people are still warming up to the teams chemistry on the day.

Nice, you just went against your own view, if every round counts then you'd throw less rounds. If you're still warming up at the start of the match, then getting 1 or 2 rounds is better than getting 1 loss right? With wins if you're 'warming up' and lose your first match, then you're 0 - 1 down, however, with rounds let's say you lost 3 - 5, you can still win as you can make up more rounds after you've warmed up.

People only believe wins are better because you're seeing a 'W', not because it's actually logical.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 12:28:21 am by Fietta »

Offline Alf

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2022, 12:30:01 am »
I literally don’t understand why you don’t just do wins… nobody gives a shit what the score is it’s about winning, if you’re just caring about rounds why even play the knockouts just do a round robin and most rounds wins
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Offline Fietta

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2022, 12:32:06 am »
I literally don’t understand why you don’t just do wins… nobody gives a shit what the score is it’s about winning, if you’re just caring about rounds why even play the knockouts just do a round robin and most rounds wins

because winning rounds against better teams would be harder than winning rounds against bad teams, so doing round robin for groups makes sense as the stronger teams go through rather than a mediocre team going through because they win against two tragic teams and then got trashed by the better teams.

Round robin doesn't make sense for knockouts due to potentially having easier teams than the other, so it should be wins for that.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 12:34:17 am by Fietta »

Offline Alf

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2022, 12:34:08 am »
I literally don’t understand why you don’t just do wins… nobody gives a shit what the score is it’s about winning, if you’re just caring about rounds why even play the knockouts just do a round robin and most rounds wins

because winning rounds against better teams would be harder than winning rounds against bad teams, so doing round robin for groups makes sense as the stronger teams go through rather than a mediocre team going through because they win against two tragic teams and then got trashed by the better teams.

If you don’t want bad teams to play just don’t let them sign up… if someone gets through the groups then they deserve to be where they are, nobody gives a fuck how you win as long as you do
Nothing seemed out of place except the washing machine in the bar when the pink horses galloped across the sea.

Let your intentions be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you range, fall like a thunderbolt - Zeyden cringelord

Offline Fietta

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2022, 12:35:03 am »
I literally don’t understand why you don’t just do wins… nobody gives a shit what the score is it’s about winning, if you’re just caring about rounds why even play the knockouts just do a round robin and most rounds wins

because winning rounds against better teams would be harder than winning rounds against bad teams, so doing round robin for groups makes sense as the stronger teams go through rather than a mediocre team going through because they win against two tragic teams and then got trashed by the better teams.

If you don’t want bad teams to play just don’t let them sign up… if someone gets through the groups then they deserve to be where they are, nobody gives a fuck how you win as long as you do

Wrong, with wins, worse teams can go through over better ones even though they performed worse (and lost against that team that didn't go through), hence why rounds make far more sense. Round robin groups is by any standard, the best way of determining which team goes through to knockouts (which would then be wins).

Offline Alf

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2022, 12:39:33 am »
I literally don’t understand why you don’t just do wins… nobody gives a shit what the score is it’s about winning, if you’re just caring about rounds why even play the knockouts just do a round robin and most rounds wins

because winning rounds against better teams would be harder than winning rounds against bad teams, so doing round robin for groups makes sense as the stronger teams go through rather than a mediocre team going through because they win against two tragic teams and then got trashed by the better teams.

If you don’t want bad teams to play just don’t let them sign up… if someone gets through the groups then they deserve to be where they are, nobody gives a fuck how you win as long as you do

Wrong, with wins, worse teams can go through over better ones even though they performed worse (and lost against that team that didn't go through), hence why rounds make far more sense.

What? If you don’t win enough matches that’s on you, everyone knows what they have to do going into it, having to sit there and nerd out over how many rounds everyone has is going to A) take longer and B) piss off people

It’s a one day tournament, you don’t have the sample size to dictate which team is better by rounds won because you’d need all the teams to play multiple times in order to judge a mean. Whereas if you go by wins it’s as simple as beating the rest of your group to go through
Nothing seemed out of place except the washing machine in the bar when the pink horses galloped across the sea.

Let your intentions be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you range, fall like a thunderbolt - Zeyden cringelord

Offline Fietta

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2022, 12:40:51 am »
I literally don’t understand why you don’t just do wins… nobody gives a shit what the score is it’s about winning, if you’re just caring about rounds why even play the knockouts just do a round robin and most rounds wins

because winning rounds against better teams would be harder than winning rounds against bad teams, so doing round robin for groups makes sense as the stronger teams go through rather than a mediocre team going through because they win against two tragic teams and then got trashed by the better teams.

If you don’t want bad teams to play just don’t let them sign up… if someone gets through the groups then they deserve to be where they are, nobody gives a fuck how you win as long as you do

Wrong, with wins, worse teams can go through over better ones even though they performed worse (and lost against that team that didn't go through), hence why rounds make far more sense.

What? If you don’t win enough matches that’s on you, everyone knows what they have to do going into it, having to sit there and nerd out over how many rounds everyone has is going to A) take longer and B) piss off people

It’s a one day tournament, you don’t have the sample size to dictate which team is better by rounds won because you’d need all the teams to play multiple times in order to judge a mean. Whereas if you go by wins it’s as simple as beating the rest of your group to go through

You shouldn't need to nerd out how many rounds you've won, just play your best every round as you should and report the scores.

Offline Alf

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2022, 12:43:48 am »
It’s whatever but this is just complication for the sake of it, everyone knows how the proper format works and if you don’t go through that’s on you, but there’s a reason wins and losses are used in actual sports and not “average score difference” or whatever, because scores are variable and dependent on multiple external factors, a win is a single number that is the total sum of the entire match
Nothing seemed out of place except the washing machine in the bar when the pink horses galloped across the sea.

Let your intentions be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you range, fall like a thunderbolt - Zeyden cringelord

Offline Fietta

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2022, 12:46:29 am »
It's not complicated and doesn't involve any brain power, sports work differently because they're different games. ESports have also used RR. It's also not average score difference, it's rounds won.

If people think it's too complicated enough to not understand that this is a more accurate way to determine a team's skill which results in better knockout matches, then fuck me go back to school.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 12:49:06 am by Fietta »

Offline Hertz

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2022, 12:46:41 am »
It’s whatever but this is just complication for the sake of it, everyone knows how the proper format works and if you don’t go through that’s on you, but there’s a reason wins and losses are used in actual sports and not “average score difference” or whatever, because scores are variable and dependent on multiple external factors, a win is a single number that is the total sum of the entire match

Pipe down child

Offline Alf

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2022, 12:48:14 am »
It’s whatever but this is just complication for the sake of it, everyone knows how the proper format works and if you don’t go through that’s on you, but there’s a reason wins and losses are used in actual sports and not “average score difference” or whatever, because scores are variable and dependent on multiple external factors, a win is a single number that is the total sum of the entire match

Pipe down child

You have the brain power of a rock, and dumb one at that
Nothing seemed out of place except the washing machine in the bar when the pink horses galloped across the sea.

Let your intentions be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you range, fall like a thunderbolt - Zeyden cringelord

Offline Fietta

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2022, 12:50:05 am »
Funny thing is, I was also against rounds won originally (which you can tell in the draft thread), then I actually spent time thinking about it and determined that wins in group stage is heavily flawed. Knockouts it's fine.

Offline Scottish Unicorn

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Re: ATS | 6v6 Classic Tournament | 25.09
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2022, 12:52:19 am »
Nobody cares in champions league if you score 45 goals but lose all your matches.

Gotta win matches to generate points. Changing the goalposts never looks good but this is especially stupid.