Flying Squirrel Entertainment
Mount & Blade Warband: Napoleonic Wars => General Discussion => Suggestions & Bug Reports => Topic started by: Coconut on July 07, 2014, 07:27:09 pm
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Forming a square to fend off against cav is epic but it doesn't work in NW. Cav can just jump into the square and completely break it which I think is kinda exploiting this. It takes a lot of work to form a square and regiments need good discipline to form them quick and it aggravates me that cav can just have their horse jump into it and nullify most of the defensiveness of the square.
Here is a link to cav abusing this tactic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kc3lOdO5Cw#t=2m50s
*skip to 2 mins 50 seconds to see it faster*
Like if you look at this video I don't see any horses jumping into the squares lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97dBfdNrf9A
This jumping into squares would never happen in real life. Is it possible to have this changed so cav cannot do this by updating the game or changing some code? or do event leaders have to ban this from events to prevent cav from abusing this 'tactic'
TL;DR, Cavalry can jump into someone bracing their bayonet and jump over the bayonet to knock them over. Feels like an exploit to me, and is annoying when cav leaders who know this do it on purpose to infantry making anti cav formations like in the 1st video.
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Do you understand that a mere infantry man bayoneting one cavalry will most probably lose his arm and life? So with that said, whenever cavalry run someone over, it should be an instant death and whenever a horseman falls over, almost instant death. That'll make the game more realistic sure, but will destroy the aspect of the game making everything balanced. Now, with that said, the Moskvoskii Grenaders, have their own "anti cavalry square" we call it the circle. We form up standing spaced out creating a circle with the upward attack bayonets fixed looking outward and inside the circle is the flag man and a few CO's ,NCO's. We've used this tactic three times, (It was a new thing we invented) and to surprising effect it works. I can provide screenshots at a later time to show you what I mean. I don't have any currently
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What? I don't know what you are trying to say Ody, but a horse would not charge headlong into a braces bayonet, especially if there are lots of braces bayonets. Needless to say, a horse would be even less likely to JUMP into a wall a bayonets.
With that said I agree completely coconut.
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What? I don't know what you are trying to say Ody, but a horse would not charge headlong into a braces bayonet, especially if there are lots of braces bayonets. Needless to say, a horse would be even less likely to JUMP into a wall a bayonets.
Yes true, but in the occurrence where that happened, the man killing the horse usually dies. Think of it this way, a rider or horse dumb enough to go straight through a bayonet is one thing, but afterwards, when rider or hose or both, start flying like a projectile it kills the guy on the other end.
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In the scenario where a horse runs headlong into someone, of course that guy isn't going to have a good day, but like I said, a horse isn't going to be willing to run into that like they do in NW. On top of that, for gameplay purposes it would be very nice to give fortified infantry an extra bonus against Cav.
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In the scenario where a horse runs headlong into someone, of course that guy isn't going to have a good day, but like I said, a horse isn't going to be willing to run into that like they do in NW. On top of that, for gameplay purposes it would be very nice to give fortified infantry an extra bonus against Cav.
cav is easy to take down on its own
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You've obviously never played against decent Cav.
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You've obviously never played against decent Cav.
I have...plenty of times
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You've obviously never played against decent Cav.
In the IXe Corps we have the privilege to train with some of the best cav in North America on a regular basis (the 1erPLG). I can assure you, as others who have posted in this thread have stated, that there are anti cavalry formations that are incredibly effective, well balanced, and fun within the current game mechanics.
These formations don't look like the infantry squares formations that are accurate for the time and don't involve crouching but do lead to a fair fight between cavalry and infantry.
It should be hard for a lone line of infantry to defend itself from the cavalry on a map, but with proper training and tactics it is already possible. I honestly don't see why a change is necessary and also find it highly unlikely that a change would be made anyway.
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Watching Coconut's video, I can see several areas for improvement in tactics.
- The line fired too early - you only have time for one shot before the cav hits. Wait until they are just close enough that you have time to fire and switch to melee. This will make the initial volley much more effective. Also aim for the horses. They are an easier target to hit and dismounted cav is practically as good as a kill.
- The formation has to0 much space inside the square - forming a circle approximately two men deep with very little open space in the middle eliminates the ability of cav to jump into the circle and still be able to maneuver. Anti-cav formations need to be about every covering the backs of everyone else.
- No one should be crouching. Being able to move to dodge a horse or lance or to return a stab is very important. The braced musket from crouch is too short to be useful and very limited as moving even slightly breaks the brace.
- What is most vital is to always be able to maneuver but at the same time keep the formation as tight as possible. Good cav rarekt attacks an infantry man that sees them and is ready to block or stab, they instead maneuver and circle until they have a target that is unaware they are there. Good anti-cav formations try to minimize the number of soldiers whose blind spots are exposed to horses.
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You've obviously never played against decent Cav.
In the IXe Corps we have the privilege to train with some of the best cav in North America on a regular basis (the 1erPLG). I can assure you, as others who have posted in this thread have stated, that there are anti cavalry formations that are incredibly effective, well balanced, and fun within the current game mechanics.
These formations don't look like the infantry squares formations that are accurate for the time and don't involve crouching but do lead to a fair fight between cavalry and infantry.
It should be hard for a lone line of infantry to defend itself from the cavalry on a map, but with proper training and tactics it is already possible. I honestly don't see why a change is necessary and also find it highly unlikely that a change would be made anyway.
Oh and what formation would that be?
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I outlined a lot of the important factors in my prior numbered post. But it is basically a relatively tightly packed cavalry circle several men deep with very little space in the center.
Generally when marching or firing when it appears cav is going to attack our line. Everyone condenses down into a tight circle.
The men are allowed to fire at will but told to reserve enough time to get into melee and to aim for the horses.
After the initial shock has been successfully repulsed (and it usually is with only a few casualties), commonly the cav will start to circle around the line waiting for infantry to leave the formation to be easily picked off.
If under no artillery or nearby infantry threat, we maintain the tight circle and the inner ranks FOL while the outer ranks remain in melee fending off the horses.
If under artillery or nearby infantry threat we do something akin to a "spartan shield bash" where the line pushes out in all directions hoping to catch a horse unaware and then quickly recover back into the tight formation.
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I will go ahead and add that if you are in a situation where it is just your line vs a cav regiment, you are already in a bad spot, and more or less deserve to die. Cav will eat up any unsupported lines. A square was not a guaranteed guard against cav and nor should it ever be imo. Line infantry at all times should be in an area where they are supported by other lines, skirms, or even arty.
I have seen too many times in my time of attending LBs where a regiment goes off to no mans land all by itself unsupported and get mobbed by cavalry. They then in turn blame the game for it being OP. If they used proper tactics and teamwork they would of never been in that situation.
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Perhaps they should improve it so we have more of a challenge
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I have seen too many times in my time of attending LBs where a regiment goes off to no mans land all by itself unsupported and get mobbed by cavalry. They then in turn blame the game for it being OP. If they used proper tactics and teamwork they would of never been in that situation.
But if something kills me William I must say it's OP.
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Pepper is right: let us change the game to correct bad tactics.
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Watching Coconut's video, I can see several areas for improvement in tactics.
- The line fired too early - you only have time for one shot before the cav hits. Wait until they are just close enough that you have time to fire and switch to melee. This will make the initial volley much more effective. Also aim for the horses. They are an easier target to hit and dismounted cav is practically as good as a kill.
- The formation has to0 much space inside the square - forming a circle approximately two men deep with very little open space in the middle eliminates the ability of cav to jump into the circle and still be able to maneuver. Anti-cav formations need to be about every covering the backs of everyone else.
- No one should be crouching. Being able to move to dodge a horse or lance or to return a stab is very important. The braced musket from crouch is too short to be useful and very limited as moving even slightly breaks the brace.
- What is most vital is to always be able to maneuver but at the same time keep the formation as tight as possible. Good cav rarekt attacks an infantry man that sees them and is ready to block or stab, they instead maneuver and circle until they have a target that is unaware they are there. Good anti-cav formations try to minimize the number of soldiers whose blind spots are exposed to horses.
On point 3, I find it very sad that crouching and bracing bayonets against cav is the most useless thing to do if they jump over an entire wall in a square. So I would say either nerf horse jumping or buff Braced bayonets in NW to fix this.
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Watching Coconut's video, I can see several areas for improvement in tactics.
- The line fired too early - you only have time for one shot before the cav hits. Wait until they are just close enough that you have time to fire and switch to melee. This will make the initial volley much more effective. Also aim for the horses. They are an easier target to hit and dismounted cav is practically as good as a kill.
- The formation has to0 much space inside the square - forming a circle approximately two men deep with very little open space in the middle eliminates the ability of cav to jump into the circle and still be able to maneuver. Anti-cav formations need to be about every covering the backs of everyone else.
- No one should be crouching. Being able to move to dodge a horse or lance or to return a stab is very important. The braced musket from crouch is too short to be useful and very limited as moving even slightly breaks the brace.
- What is most vital is to always be able to maneuver but at the same time keep the formation as tight as possible. Good cav rarekt attacks an infantry man that sees them and is ready to block or stab, they instead maneuver and circle until they have a target that is unaware they are there. Good anti-cav formations try to minimize the number of soldiers whose blind spots are exposed to horses.
On point 3, I find it very sad that crouching and bracing bayonets against cav is the most useless thing to do if they jump over an entire wall in a square. So I would say either nerf horse jumping or buff Braced bayonets in NW to fix this.
Anti Cav formations are meant to destroy cav but not without the initial challenge, anti cav is all about team work you have to watch each others back and call things out for others we can't just and you the dead PLG on a silver platter (Only saying PLG cause its the only NA cav regiment I can think of at the time) Teamwork is the foundation of most tactics and thats why the PLG works well together, you don't have to worry bout one guy cause the guy riding behind you will get him plus in my opinion you should attack cav rather than wait braced because you have little to no time to turn a brace while cavalry charges
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just in case its not been said before wouldn't killing a horse jumping at you mean the horse will crush you even if it is dead. Its ok as it is if you stand up and stab i think you can kill the horses. The video is of a film of the battle of Waterloo to my knowledge i have seen that in another video. renactors tend to do things right drill wise. :P
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The entire idea of a cavalry square is that the horse will simply refuse to ride into it.
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The entire idea of a cavalry square is that the horse will simply refuse to ride into it.
Does it seriously have such an amazing impact on the horse? I mean, you couldn't force a horse to do such a thing?
Well, I am aware you can't, otherwise there wouldn't be a cavsquare, but, how does the horse recognise a bayonet-wall as a threat?
I mean, the horse shouldn't really know the concept of a bayonet, right?
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Horses have feelings 2
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I think it has something to do with the willingness of the rider
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nop
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The entire idea of a cavalry square is that the horse will simply refuse to ride into it.
Does it seriously have such an amazing impact on the horse? I mean, you couldn't force a horse to do such a thing?
Horses in the end are flight animals, and will gennerally avoid something in its way, weather it be stone wall or trusty bayonet. Cavalry on their own would very rarely break a square, but it did happen a few times during the Napoleonic wars if a downed horse slammed into the square, or if a inexpirenced unit broke under the pressure.
But back on topic. I do wish that musket bracing was a thing for historical RP reasons (:P) but unfortuantly it is not so. I was wondering lately if a mod could add a feature where the musket has a small area to the left and right of him that causes the horse to rear up or even shy away.
Though to be honest the cavalry in game do have ridiculus turning speed/maneuverability but whatever.
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There was/is a way to turn on horse bucking from bayonets like it use to be. It did require the cav to charge head on into bayonets though and the person has to stab for it to work. You probably could mod it so braced bayonets made cav buck.
I actually preferred this as cav but if someone was to put this back in, they would have to redo cav balance imo. Heavy cav is already weak enough as is.
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Haha I can remember the big spat done by the cavalry players against the bucking ;D
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You only need to be dense and presenting your bayonets to discourage horses and riders, a line or column could accomplish that. The purpose of the square as a shape itself is that the riders can not encircle you, and the right-angles are preferable over a circle or oval because it's easier to arrange each side in multiple ranks and ensure equal spacing between men. A disadvantage lay in the corners, but in the early to mid-18th century these had gaps with regimental artillery deployed, in which case the cavalry that tried to breach the corner would face a blast of canister.
In the Russo-Turkish War of 1806-1812, Turkish cavalry was so plentiful and speedy, that the Russians actually on occasion marched from place to place in square - essentially a line, followed by two columns, and line again in the rear. If sudden contact was made, the front would hold, the columns would perform a quarter-face, and the rear line did an about-face. Na ruku! - Charge your bayonets! Show me a video of an NW regiment doing that, and I might start playing again.
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[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iYQCzl5QXw&index=6&list=UUHwnDe4cpih-74Nnt5PH3ig[/youtube]
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The entire idea of a cavalry square is that the horse will simply refuse to ride into it.
Does it seriously have such an amazing impact on the horse? I mean, you couldn't force a horse to do such a thing?
Well, I am aware you can't, otherwise there wouldn't be a cavsquare, but, how does the horse recognise a bayonet-wall as a threat?
I mean, the horse shouldn't really know the concept of a bayonet, right?
Horses aren't going to run headlong into a large pointy mass. Animals tend to not like slamming into objects regardless.
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video game s should follow real life imo
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You have nerfed cav to its end already. Cav is so weak and you are crying about realism. Ruin the game more with your shit.
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If you see a wall, will run at the wall and slam it with your body? Or will you try and go around a wall?
There is a brace feature in NW as far as I know, just crouch and turn to melee mode. The fact tyat tactics like squares dont work in NW is because the horse doesnt have any brains at all in the game compared to in real life. As soon as you press E on the horse you become his brain. Users in NW would run into the square cause the horse doesnt react at what it should in real life. So basically the user just jumps into the circle and kills. In real life the horse would stop infront of the line of bayonets or run around. In NW the brainless horse follows what the brainless user does without hesitation.
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damn beta, and whenever a reg that we are attacking does form a square or circle we make a circle of our own, to avoid bucking each other
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Love you zach. plg is not brainless, more like a storm.
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If you see a wall, will run at the wall and slam it with your body? Or will you try and go around a wall?
There is a brace feature in NW as far as I know, just crouch and turn to melee mode. The fact tyat tactics like squares dont work in NW is because the horse doesnt have any brains at all in the game compared to in real life. As soon as you press E on the horse you become his brain. Users in NW would run into the square cause the horse doesnt react at what it should in real life. So basically the user just jumps into the circle and kills. In real life the horse would stop infront of the line of bayonets or run around. In NW the brainless horse follows what the brainless user does without hesitation.
Ok. Ever heard that horses were trained in order to do their job properly? Fuck off with your realism
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If you see a wall, will run at the wall and slam it with your body? Or will you try and go around a wall?
There is a brace feature in NW as far as I know, just crouch and turn to melee mode. The fact tyat tactics like squares dont work in NW is because the horse doesnt have any brains at all in the game compared to in real life. As soon as you press E on the horse you become his brain. Users in NW would run into the square cause the horse doesnt react at what it should in real life. So basically the user just jumps into the circle and kills. In real life the horse would stop infront of the line of bayonets or run around. In NW the brainless horse follows what the brainless user does without hesitation.
Ok. Ever heard that horses were trained in order to do their job properly? Fuck off with your realism
Your post is more confusing than Betty. Eitherway, I have not suggested for NW to have realistic horse mechanics and brains, I was simply stating the obvious. I doubt a horse would want to be stabbed with bayonets or "spiky things", I'd say that is instinctive. Just like you wouldn't jump into a pit of fire. Soldiers are trained to hold the line yet they also fall back or refuse to stay in line. Now please, do yourself a favor and stop cursing to others who don't agree with your views of games and realism.
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I don't care about horses refusing to run into the square. I always want to player to have 100% control of the horse. The only thing I do not like is that horses can literally clear a entire line of people with a jump even when they are all bracing which is retarded. I want it so if someone is bracing their bayonet that it is impossible for a horse to jump over it because IT RUINS THE POINT OF A braced SQUARE. Cav jumping into a braced square DESTROYS IT. AND IS OP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0APWuhRkB0&feature=youtu.be
This is retarded.
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Maybe horse could stop at a braced all scared and stuff and then the infantry man could just stab the horse or rider to death? Oh wait, that doesn't fix the jumping into squares thing..
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You have nerfed cav to its end already. Cav is so weak and you are crying about realism. Ruin the game more with your shit.
Come on lol, cav is not weak, cav is OP... Extremely fast and if you are ok at the game you can kill loads of people, especially in linebattles. Everyone has seen it! In linebattles cav always kill way too many people! NERF CAV!! Make cav slower I say!
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As a cavalry player what I notice is, bayonets always outreach me, even in some circumstances with a lance. The reason inf dies to cav is completely the infantries fault. They out reach the cav in many different situations and if they were dumb enough to go in the open alone and get attack by cav its not cavs fault. Learn to counter it.
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#bringbackdragoons
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Though to be honest the cavalry in game do have ridiculus turning speed/maneuverability but whatever.
this, horses have laughable maneuverability that other than being unrealistic makes cav vs cav fights look like a ridiculous car race with sabres
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Tbh when we see a blobbed infantry square in a linebattle that's nearly as wonderful as reloading riflemen. We can just go through them and slash into any direction whilst not taking any casualties really. Infantry is much more dangerous for cav when they are in a light formation.