Author Topic: Russian plane shot down by Turkey  (Read 20651 times)

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Offline Dazzer

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #150 on: November 27, 2015, 05:31:19 pm »
this became math thread  ???

Offline Liman von Sanders

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #151 on: November 27, 2015, 05:32:02 pm »
Erdogan is a dictator.
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Offline MaxLam

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #153 on: November 27, 2015, 08:05:24 pm »
I guess that it sums it up.

Offline Ted

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #154 on: November 27, 2015, 08:25:43 pm »
I guess that it sums it up.

And what do we learn out of this? Everyone here was wrong, including me. We all are simply not experienced enough in this matters to discuss this in a reputable way.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 08:30:38 pm by Ted »
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Offline Rejenorst

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #155 on: November 27, 2015, 11:15:41 pm »
Can this help?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/belgian-physicists-calculate-that-everyone-is-lying-about-the-downed-russian-jet?utm_source=vicenewsfb

Fantastic find thankyou!

I guess that it sums it up.

And what do we learn out of this? Everyone here was wrong, including me. We all are simply not experienced enough in this matters to discuss this in a reputable way.

Gentlemen I think it is time:

Spoiler


SHAMEFUR DISHPRAY!
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Spoiler

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Offline MrTiki

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #156 on: November 28, 2015, 12:12:38 am »
The one thing missing in their calculations is how they know the locations that the plane was hit and crashed. Looking at the footage, there is no way in hell the jet traveled 8km between getting hit and crashing (even based purely upon the size of it in the camera as it falls). With a very rough calculation, I believe that an object of that size should appear to shrink by about a factor of 6 if it travelled from 2km away to 10km away (from the observer). The Russians gave very different locations to the Turks last time I checked (the Russians' estimate was actually a much shorter distance).

Their calculations are very simplified; assuming the plane was travelling in a straight line and continued to do so after being hit, and that it didn't slow down at all (due to either air resistance or the engines cutting out) and so on. From the footage, you can clearly see that it goes into a nose-dive, which is exactly what you'd expect. That alone means that the engines are providing their thrust pushing towards the ground and the wings no longer providing lift to keep the aircraft aloft (another thing the physicists forgot), and so it crashes into the ground not very far from where it was hit.
Following on from that, given that there would have been increased acceleration towards the ground from the momentum and thrust of the aircraft, we can safely assume that the aircraft was at a higher altitude than they estimated, as it would have fallen further in the same amount of time.

So, whilst their calculations are mathematically sound (obviously), they are based on simplifications and incorrect analysis of the situation.

What we actually learned from this, is don't simply assume that because something involves maths and comes from an academic source doesn't mean it's correct.

Offline Olafson

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #157 on: November 28, 2015, 12:24:16 am »
The "Physicists" are also assuming that the 17second stay in Turkish airspace is wrong, while we assumed that it is true. Our calculations make perfect sense if we take the height difference (I still have no idea where that Data came from) and the 17 seconds into account.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 12:25:50 am by ††Olafson†† »

Offline Frederik

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #158 on: November 28, 2015, 01:32:49 am »
What zur physicist says against the Russian map( with the 90° turn) could as well be caused becaus the pilot tried to turn away from the rocket.
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Offline The Rebel

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #159 on: November 28, 2015, 03:43:49 am »
Someone probably already said it, but a Russian plan came into Turkey airspace. Turkish authorities tried to get a hold of the plane many times, no response, we all then know what happened, as the Turkish saw it as a hostility and shot the plan down .

Offline Rejenorst

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #160 on: November 28, 2015, 03:49:44 am »
Damn it your probably right Tiki.

Only thing we seem to be learning is that everyone and everything is wrong. D:

Without the exact crash site distance from the point of entry and the time of crash vs time of entry seems we won't know.

Anyway this is the Russian voe:
http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/27/turkish-air-force-f-16s-ambushed-the-su-24-fencer-heres-russias-version-of-the-controversial-shootdown/
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Offline DaMonkey

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #161 on: November 28, 2015, 03:55:43 am »
Did you know that if you use 100% of your brain, you get godlike powers? true story.
Did you know that if you use 10% of received donations, you can release BCoF by now. true story

Offline MaxLam

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #162 on: November 28, 2015, 07:26:43 am »
Olafson did. But according to the physicist, that's not possible either. Indeed, the plane would have been flying under 3600 meters, while according to the physicist's own calculation, the plane was flying at "at least 4500". Thus the plane was probably flying at 6000 meters as both countries said, and therefore it couldn't stay 17 seconds in the airspace.

Moreover, also according to the physicist, the plane was flying "at an initial speed of 980 km/h". This makes sense because the cruise speed is usually 75% of the max speed.

So the physicist's calculations completely dismiss Ankara's version.

As for the Russian version, it only said that the plane couldn't turn 90 degrees because of the hit. But the Russian version (see Rejenorst's post above) is that the plane turned and was hit after that: "The crew of the leading aircraft confirms the missile launch. After the launch and a left turn for heading 130 degrees, they observed a flash and a tail of white smoke, which he reported to the flight control officer."
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 07:42:13 am by MaxLam »

Offline MrTiki

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #163 on: November 28, 2015, 02:03:23 pm »
MaxLam did you read anything that the rest of us wrote?
The physicists are completely wrong in their calculations.

Also, about the new Russian version, it is quite markedly different to the original version that they showed the world. Not suspicious necessarily, but it's interesting to see.

Offline Olafson

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Re: Russian plane shot down by Turkey
« Reply #164 on: November 28, 2015, 04:52:36 pm »
I wish there would be Google Streetview in Syria, or at least higher quality Sat images. The elevation profile is okay.

Comparing the claimed Russian crash site to the Turkish crash site gives me some results.
To me it seems more likely that the Turkish crash site is accurate.

The Russian crash site is to far inland. Looking at the video, it is almost impossible to to find a hill with nothing but blue sky behind it.
I found one place that could potentially be correct. There are electronic wires, due to being right next to a group of trees, and the hill has the right shape. But I am not sure about the trees. There a is a 2nd hill dangerously close to it, and in reality it might be that the trees on that hill are obstructing the view.

In the video you can clearly see electric wires passing in front of the camera. In the Area that the Turkish claimed to be the crash site, there are 2 possible spots that feature big enough streets or  houses nearby. Besides that, there 2 hills that kinda resemble the hill seen in the video. The general shape is the same (Too bad that the elevation profile is quite low res). I can also see a road passing on one side of the hill.

I wonder if there is more footage showing the crash. It is hard to go from this one video, because all it shows are electric wires and a hill.
Sadly, because the crash is behind a hill, I can not tell when exactly the crash occurred, so I can not measure how long the sound took to arrive at the camera.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 05:14:38 pm by ††Olafson†† »