The General Political Thread

[Conway]

And Euros mock US constitutionalists

To be fair not many EU countries give their citizens constitutional rights to hellfire missiles and nuclear bombs.

Not sure who does

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
arms: weapons and ammunition, armaments
Under the U.S constitution, you can own hellfire missiles. Friend of mine met a guy who bought 16 and attached them to his helicopter for cosmetic purposes. They ended up getting confiscated due to him being a threat to national security.

[Duuring]

The EU can punish member states when it wants to it just doesn't apply the rules equally. Spain can fudge it, it's not actually that hard these days to ignore the law, and the EU doesn't need to get involved.

EU rules, not national laws, and only through a procedure that's very difficult because member states are still the most powerful entities within the EU. But answer the question; do you WANT the EU to force Spain to break its own constitution if it refuses to? Because no Spanish politician is going to break their own constitution to let a bunch of Catalans run off with part of their country.

[StevenChilton]

Nope, I've said the EU should not get involved. If Brussels didn't have the moral courage to stand up to Spain after the police were filmed assaulting civilians en masse (an infringement of the fundamental rights of EU citizens as set out in Lisbon if ever there was one, and yet another example of the EU ignoring its own rules for political ease) then as an organisation it's not really much use.

Member states as a whole are not the most powerful entity, it's literally just Germany and France who call the shots. Constitutions and laws get bent/broken all the time (how else do you think we ended up with the Euro, Lisbon, the bailout packages, etc?) so I don't get why this is somehow an immovable obstacle when it comes to Catalonia.

[Duuring]

Nope, I've said the EU should not get involved. If Brussels didn't have the moral courage to stand up to Spain after the police were filmed assaulting civilians en masse (an infringement of the fundamental rights of EU citizens as set out in Lisbon if ever there was one, and yet another example of the EU ignoring its own rules for political ease)

The use of violence is not an infringement of any fundamental rights. The police can slam you in your face in full accordance with national and international law. I don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to understand. The referendum was illegal=the police can actually shut down voting stations=the police can actually use proportional violence if people physically resist. No laws or fundamental rights are broken by doing this. If people think that the violence was unproportional, they can sue the state.

Whether the use of violence something you want is something else entirely, but hey, this very same Catalan regional government had no problem with sending the police to shut down voting stations a few years ago when some local referendum was held in Barcelona. Of course, the entire point of filming the police using their legal rights is just to frame them as a bunch of baddies while you're actually breaking the law yourself. "BUT GUYS, VOTING IS NEVER ILLEGAL!11". It can be. And it was. There is rule of law, not rule of majority.

And you know what's the stupidest thing? All these people screaming bloody murder about the EU not doing anything in Spain yet doing the exact same thing when the EU does something about actual roll-backs on the rule of law in Poland. Whatever the EU does, it's the baddie. Somehow, just somehow, I'm a 100% sure those people would be waving Spanish flags and screaming how the EU should not interfer with internal Spanish affairs if it had gotten involved. The stupidity and hypocriscy is nauseating.

Explain to me how constitutional law has been broken by Lisbon or bailout packages. I'm curious.

[StevenChilton]

State exercise of violence has to be proportional and limited, and within the EU that's built in twice over in both the Charter of Fundamental Rights and the ECHR. Shutting down a vote by entering polling stations and seizing ballot boxes is perfectly legal, but Spanish police then went on to attack demonstrators in public places with excessive force. That clearly violates right to assembly, right to be free from torture (which covers police brutality) and probably right to human dignity too. Catalans can indeed sue the state and hundreds are doing so. You might think it's perfectly legal but Human Rights Watch does not: https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excessive-force-catalonia

A lot of experts seem to think Spain has a case to answer too: https://www.politico.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/171101_LETTER-TUSK-JUNCKER-FINAL1.pdf

All the EU needs to do is apply the law equally. That's it. Could you imagine if the US Federal Govt continually let California off the hook for stuff but always came down hard on Oklahoma or Idaho? Not sure what you mean by Lisbon (ratification process?-not illegal, but clearly bent the law *almost* to breaking point in places) or by constitutional law since a lot of this isn't a constitutional issue.
In terms of illegality in general EU bailouts have broken the law numerous times. ECB actions in 2015 over the Greek bailout were almost certainly illegal. Draghi even commissioned legal advice which he now refuses to make public, so he probably knowingly acted illegally too which makes it even worse. Italy's bailout of its own banks also broke state aid rules but was given a pass by the EU Commission.

[Duuring]

No, like I said

the police can actually use proportional violence if people physically resist. No laws or fundamental rights are broken by doing this. If people think that the violence was unproportional, they can sue the state.

Spanish and European Courts work perfectly fine as far as I know, so other EU institution do not need to (and should not) interfere. Whether violence was proportional or not is a legal matter, not a political one. I oppose the (rather widespread) notion that police action is police brutality by default. I'm not saying everything Spain did in the course of this period was perfectly unquestionably legal. There needs to be due process, and if the courts decide the violence was unproportional, then obviously, it was illegal. But none of this would have happened in the 1st place if the Catalan regional government hadn't pushed on with their unquestionably illegal referendum.

[StevenChilton]

No, like I said

the police can actually use proportional violence if people physically resist. No laws or fundamental rights are broken by doing this. If people think that the violence was unproportional, they can sue the state.

Spanish and European Courts work perfectly fine as far as I know, so other EU institution do not need to (and should not) interfere. Whether violence was proportional or not is a legal matter, not a political one. I oppose the (rather widespread) notion that police action is police brutality by default. I'm not saying everything Spain did in the course of this period was perfectly unquestionably legal. There needs to be due process, and if the courts decide the violence was unproportional, then obviously, it was illegal. But none of this would have happened in the 1st place if the Catalan regional government hadn't pushed on with their unquestionably illegal referendum.

That would hold were it not for the fact that the EU Commission acts as the guardian of the treaties, and therefore sues member states when such rights are infringed. You can't sit it out if you're the enforcer.

[Duuring]

But rights are not infringed upon if A. the courts work according to B. certain standards.

[StevenChilton]

But rights are not infringed upon if A. the courts work according to B. certain standards.

The bulk of expert opinion thinks Spanish police acted illegally, so I don't know what to tell you. The EU Commission is the guardian of the treaties and if they're unwilling to act then that's pretty significant. The whole crisis encapsulates the EU's biggest flaw, i.e. that there's no European demos and it's literally just a club for several big countries to try and dominate everyone else. The rules don't apply to France/Spain/Germany/Italy the same way they do to Poland or Greece. Say what you like about the British but we almost always played fair and met our obligations as EU members. We didn't sign up to stuff only to almost immediately go back on our word, unlike certain other countries.

[Riddlez]

The whole catalonia thing is nothing but tje littel kid throwing a tantrum again. The siatuation as-is is non-sustainable for the catalan government. The organisation of tje police in the country doesnt help either. Catalan police was almost pitted against the Guardia Civil in the Barcelona protests and loom what a minor accident in that regard could've done: it could've turned two police forces against each other giving tje national government an excuse to say Catalonia has gone rogue. Without overwhelming support from the people, Catalonia cannot become independant. And as it stands, they don't have an overwhelming majority.

I'll wait until the tanks come rolling into Barcelona and I'll just hope nothing happens while I am tjere during New Year's 

[StevenChilton]

Excellent summation/analysis of where we're at in the West (imo):

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/20/populism-is-a-problem-elitist-technocrats-arent-the-solution/

[Edwin]

Build a wall 1,500 barriers!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/york-install-1-500-more-sidewalk-barriers-vehicle-190926658.html

[William]

In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the European Union will be reorganized into the first United European Empire, for a safe and secure society, which I assure you will last for ten thousand years

[Edwin]

In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the European Union will be reorganized into the first United European Empire, for a safe and secure society, which I assure you will last for ten thousand years

Spoiler

[close]

"I love democracy. I love the Union. The power you give me I will lay down once the United Kingdom has been abated. And as my first act with this new authority, I will create a grand army of the union, in order to counter the increasing threat of the Brexiteers."

[StevenChilton]

German politics at the moment is making Theresa May look strong and stable. What are the odds on Merkel resigning in less than 6 months?