Messages

1

The Mess Hall / Re: Official NA Ratings 2021 (Most accurate NA List)

« on: January 31, 2021, 12:34:46 am »

2

The Mess Hall / Re: Melee With the Masters: The Napoleonic Wars Podcast: NEW VIDEO COMING NEXT WEEK!

« on: May 28, 2020, 01:59:53 pm »

boo

3

The Mess Hall / Re: Ranking All KOTOR 1 Companions

« on: February 21, 2020, 10:14:32 pm »

Spoiler

From memory. Forgive me if I didn’t use a “meta internet build”, those were in their infancy in 2003-2007 and tbh there is no one universal character for all missions, your choice is heavily situation-dependent:

1) Bastila Shan - The “Heroes of the Republic” characters are built to be versatile. Bastila edges out even Jolee, though, due to end game meta. You can bring her to the Star Forge on a Dark Side play through, and this helps immensely for the “average player” IMO. Just remember to level her CON and use her as a healer hybrid

2) Jolee Bindo - powerful but squishy, don’t forget that he is also a pain in the ass

3) Mission Vao / T3-M4 - Skills are valuable, spiking computers and hacking doors should definitely not be neglected IMO. Mission might have a slight edge on T3 just because she’s a more fleshed out character, though.

4) Carth Onasi - Bumped for his versatility early in game. The “average” player would find it hard to make it off Taris or Dantooine without him.

5) Everyone else - Poor HK-47, he ranks last on my list IMO even though his dialogue is by far the best in the game. He has one or two useful features though.


Should be noted that this is for the “average” player. Advanced players will notice that I’ve completely neglected to mention mines, demolition, and a few other really OP aspects of the game.

Im my experience, the situational aspects of the game only matter heavily on two conditions: build and difficulty. YMMV though depending on how you like to play and what items are available to you.

Only Easy/Normal, you can run through the game easily enough with three Jedi and a few points pumped into lighting (and a few other things of course). There are few (if any) hackable doors that can't be broken through melee. Spiking computers is something far more useful, which is where the average player should invest in along with demo. If you don't know what you want from your party, or simply lack the knowledge on how to build, these two come in handy. The two exceptions that always stand out in my mind are Malek and the cloaked Mandalorians on Kashyyyk, though I know there are a few more.

It's when you crank the difficulty up that strategy should be put into more consideration, rather than just brute force. Knowing how each grenade and mine works is essential before the enemy can get their turn in. Force resistance is also incredibly useful on hard.

Have you played K1R? If so, there is an impossible difficulty setting that makes this even more important than it already is. You can't really spam flurry and expect to come out on top. A sustainable approach is far more effective, as well as FP conserving.

Build is a bit of a moot point. KOTOR has great companions compared to certain other games from this era, but you are ultimately the linchpin. Your character has to carry the team, which, given who they are in the story (no spoilz thnx), makes sense. Even though Jedi rank highly on my "list", I wouldn't recommend two Jedi companions. There are too many things Jedi weren't ideal at in the game, and typically if I were going for the most meta-build possible, I would select 1 Jedi (personal preference Bastila, for her hybrid potential vs Jolee's "Mage" build) and 1 skill-based support character like Mission Vao. I have no idea what the Reddit fanboy battalion has to say about meta builds, but there's mine. Landmines are the most overpowered weapon in the vanilla game until you reach the period where you can spam AOE DS powers towards the end game (IIRC, Unknown World stage and further). It isn't close, either. Spending some points on Mission's demo and stealth will pay off big when laying an ambush for multiple enemies. Force powers, as great as they are, will not give you as much mileage (until the end game) as a well-thought out ambush, although the caveat is that you need the credits to amass a good collection of mines in the first place. Mines, grenades, flamethrowers if you are using a droid, and finally force powers will win the day for you in my experience. Notice how most of those traits don't have super specific prerequisite builds with the exception of droids for flamethrowers and Jedi for force powers.

I don't know what easy difficulty is like in KOTOR, but I might give it a glance now to see if it's really broken and "tutorial" level. Normal was appropriate for newer players. Hard was too easy for advanced meta-slaves like myself. Impossible was challenging at first, but ultimately if you've played the game for a significant length of time you'll probably make short work of it like I did. You are correct, however, when you say that "sustainable [approaches] are far more effective, as well as FP conserving". Developing a working strategy of conservative use of disposable weapons (grenades, mines, stims to an extent, etc.) as well as a strategy of replenishment is critical to freeing you up to enjoy the other aspects the game has to offer. Additionally, until the end game, FP conservation is a major factor.

One more thing: hacking doors isn't useless, though I can understand the temptation to think so. It's not as useful as it should be. There are a few doors, however, that cannot be broken through melee. Also, melee is RNG even moreso than hacking, so a few well-spent points on the required skills/attributes can save you some time in a combat situation. Not really an issue for advanced players, since they'll know how to survive against bad odds long enough to have 1 party member break through the door via melee, but something that is useful for the average player. There was also a stealth element that came into play with hacking doors vs melee, but I don't recall the specifics of it.

Just my thoughts on it. I'm kinda surprised people have online "meta builds" for that game tbh. We all just did it by trial and error, and shared our thoughts with each other in forum discussion format, but I don't recall a major "walkthrough" around the time I played.

Most meta builds that would be recommended to players nowadays aren't really based around cost-effectiveness or long term planning. It mostly boils down to min-maxxing strength or dexterity while praying that the die rolls in your favor, coupled with offensive force powers. It's really weird to see now when compared to say 5 or 10 years ago. Barely anyone would recommended force speed on a melee focused two-handed character (which is strange). Others would call awareness one of more essential skills to get mid-late game. I don't know about you, but I haven't ever tossed more than 4 points into it. You are likely right on the ambush and stealth mechanics. My experience with them is extremely limited and I never found them to be much fun. I might have just been doing it wrong, but who knows. As for the must fun I've had in terms of party builds, all blaster groups would be my pick.

Difficulty wise, I do consider easy to be just that. Easy. If you want a cinematic experience and want to focus purely on the storytelling, then easy difficulty is the way to go. Taking on Bendak in the arena at level 2 is even a joke. This is why playing the majority of combat situations on solo mode is far more enjoyable; the game can just get too easy and dull when once you finish the Leviathan (or even before that) with three people. If you haven't done so already, I would refrain from using the Yavin station vendor (with the exception of cashing in your Tatooine swoop tickets) for the entirety of your playthrough. It doesn't make the game astronomically more difficult by any means, but it is a nice change of pace when you can't rely on the exclusive crystals and armor for the end game.

In terms of hacking doors, I will have to take note of that during my next playthrough, as I cannot recall any quintessential locked doors that required hacking. It might be based on difficulty, but I can't be certain. You'd have to list off the specific doors. In terms of time management on the other hand, hacking is indeed the better alternative. 

I don't think it's that surprising that there are meta builds for this game. It is still the best Star Wars game produced (imo), and while it hasn't aged particularly well, that hardly takes away the enjoyment you can have. I recall by dad writing down builds he had for ES Daggerfall, some of which I can only assume he gathered from online. So it wasn't entirely trial and error for most. Then again, Daggerfall came out over 20 years ago, so maybe they were entirely developed of his own experiments and whatnot.

[close]

It's sad to discover that min-maxxing became popular over long-term strategy and logistics planning. I experimented with min-maxxing when I revisited KOTOR on the PC and it was very bland to me compared to even simply "hybrid-ing" all characters. Aside from the flaws of overspecialization, in my opinion the real tragedy is that people are maximizing STR, CON, and DEX over WIS, INT, and CHA. Ask anyone who rates Jolee high to explain the importance of the latter three attributes and you'll get a decent argument about why you should choose those over STR and CON. Dexterity is the exception that proves the rule, except for Bastila where her meager 12 CON (IIRC) needs to be built up a bit before she realizes her full potential.

Also, from the perspective of an older KOTOR player, I don't find it odd that older guides would have recommended avoiding force speed. I think running used to dampen awareness, and I definitely remember "force-speeding" myself into land mines where the DC was too high for me to check. Burst of Speed, or whatever it was called, was something for the player character to have in order to cross long stretches of terrain easily, but its use in a hostile environment was largely negligible if you start playing more methodically and analytically. In any case, a guardian's Force Jump will usually serve well in such a situation over Burst of Speed.

Awareness is a critical meta skill, but not a critical casual skill. High awareness + high stealth + high demolitions = a surplus of powerful mines to recover and redeploy against your enemies. You can actually "one shot" some pretty powerful characters in the game with enough mines placed strategically. Other than that though, I'm not sure how effective the awareness skill would have been for the average player.

Ambush mechanics are pretty meta and really enjoyable if you like planning operations on a tactical level. Basic method is some variation of this: Stealth to scout the opponent. Find strategic choke points that won't be interrupted by pathing errors. Set mines. Retreat. Alert enemy with grenade spam to soften them up. Weaken them with flamethrowers or force powers. Wait for them to reach the mines. Repeat. Any NPC with enough power to survive gets engaged by Bastila at close range while I continue the pattern with my PC. Mission (or T3) stays out of the close fight and pretty much just uses dual blaster pistols at range. Cassus Fett's + Mandalorian Heavy Blaster Pistol preferred.

Difficulty is a bit of a joke if you've played the game for nearly two decades. I haven't worried about any lightsaber crystal in about 7 years; I don't need them or lightsabers. If you're finding Impossible difficulty easy, I would recommend Solo w/ Short Sword challenge. No parties, no force powers, no gear aside from basic clothing/jedi robes. No mines or grenades, either. Just you, a pair of robes, and a sharp piece of metal. Good luck.

I don't remember which specific doors needed hacking. I last played the game in July 2019, and in any case I peaked in 2007.

As a side note, I don't know your dad, but it is possible that he used his own ideas for Daggerfall experiments. I remember writing down working combinations, by hand, as well as faulty ones while messing around with KOTOR. Word was a thing in '03 but pen and paper were still more useful for "brainstorming", believe it or not.

4

The Mess Hall / Re: Ranking All KOTOR 1 Companions

« on: February 21, 2020, 08:16:14 pm »

From memory. Forgive me if I didn’t use a “meta internet build”, those were in their infancy in 2003-2007 and tbh there is no one universal character for all missions, your choice is heavily situation-dependent:

1) Bastila Shan - The “Heroes of the Republic” characters are built to be versatile. Bastila edges out even Jolee, though, due to end game meta. You can bring her to the Star Forge on a Dark Side play through, and this helps immensely for the “average player” IMO. Just remember to level her CON and use her as a healer hybrid

2) Jolee Bindo - powerful but squishy, don’t forget that he is also a pain in the ass

3) Mission Vao / T3-M4 - Skills are valuable, spiking computers and hacking doors should definitely not be neglected IMO. Mission might have a slight edge on T3 just because she’s a more fleshed out character, though.

4) Carth Onasi - Bumped for his versatility early in game. The “average” player would find it hard to make it off Taris or Dantooine without him.

5) Everyone else - Poor HK-47, he ranks last on my list IMO even though his dialogue is by far the best in the game. He has one or two useful features though.


Should be noted that this is for the “average” player. Advanced players will notice that I’ve completely neglected to mention mines, demolition, and a few other really OP aspects of the game.

Im my experience, the situational aspects of the game only matter heavily on two conditions: build and difficulty. YMMV though depending on how you like to play and what items are available to you.

Only Easy/Normal, you can run through the game easily enough with three Jedi and a few points pumped into lighting (and a few other things of course). There are few (if any) hackable doors that can't be broken through melee. Spiking computers is something far more useful, which is where the average player should invest in along with demo. If you don't know what you want from your party, or simply lack the knowledge on how to build, these two come in handy. The two exceptions that always stand out in my mind are Malek and the cloaked Mandalorians on Kashyyyk, though I know there are a few more.

It's when you crank the difficulty up that strategy should be put into more consideration, rather than just brute force. Knowing how each grenade and mine works is essential before the enemy can get their turn in. Force resistance is also incredibly useful on hard.

Have you played K1R? If so, there is an impossible difficulty setting that makes this even more important than it already is. You can't really spam flurry and expect to come out on top. A sustainable approach is far more effective, as well as FP conserving.

Build is a bit of a moot point. KOTOR has great companions compared to certain other games from this era, but you are ultimately the linchpin. Your character has to carry the team, which, given who they are in the story (no spoilz thnx), makes sense. Even though Jedi rank highly on my "list", I wouldn't recommend two Jedi companions. There are too many things Jedi weren't ideal at in the game, and typically if I were going for the most meta-build possible, I would select 1 Jedi (personal preference Bastila, for her hybrid potential vs Jolee's "Mage" build) and 1 skill-based support character like Mission Vao. I have no idea what the Reddit fanboy battalion has to say about meta builds, but there's mine. Landmines are the most overpowered weapon in the vanilla game until you reach the period where you can spam AOE DS powers towards the end game (IIRC, Unknown World stage and further). It isn't close, either. Spending some points on Mission's demo and stealth will pay off big when laying an ambush for multiple enemies. Force powers, as great as they are, will not give you as much mileage (until the end game) as a well-thought out ambush, although the caveat is that you need the credits to amass a good collection of mines in the first place. Mines, grenades, flamethrowers if you are using a droid, and finally force powers will win the day for you in my experience. Notice how most of those traits don't have super specific prerequisite builds with the exception of droids for flamethrowers and Jedi for force powers.

I don't know what easy difficulty is like in KOTOR, but I might give it a glance now to see if it's really broken and "tutorial" level. Normal was appropriate for newer players. Hard was too easy for advanced meta-slaves like myself. Impossible was challenging at first, but ultimately if you've played the game for a significant length of time you'll probably make short work of it like I did. You are correct, however, when you say that "sustainable [approaches] are far more effective, as well as FP conserving". Developing a working strategy of conservative use of disposable weapons (grenades, mines, stims to an extent, etc.) as well as a strategy of replenishment is critical to freeing you up to enjoy the other aspects the game has to offer. Additionally, until the end game, FP conservation is a major factor.

One more thing: hacking doors isn't useless, though I can understand the temptation to think so. It's not as useful as it should be. There are a few doors, however, that cannot be broken through melee. Also, melee is RNG even moreso than hacking, so a few well-spent points on the required skills/attributes can save you some time in a combat situation. Not really an issue for advanced players, since they'll know how to survive against bad odds long enough to have 1 party member break through the door via melee, but something that is useful for the average player. There was also a stealth element that came into play with hacking doors vs melee, but I don't recall the specifics of it.

Just my thoughts on it. I'm kinda surprised people have online "meta builds" for that game tbh. We all just did it by trial and error, and shared our thoughts with each other in forum discussion format, but I don't recall a major "walkthrough" around the time I played.

5

The Mess Hall / Re: Ranking All KOTOR 1 Companions

« on: February 21, 2020, 03:20:26 pm »

From memory. Forgive me if I didn’t use a “meta internet build”, those were in their infancy in 2003-2007 and tbh there is no one universal character for all missions, your choice is heavily situation-dependent:

1) Bastila Shan - The “Heroes of the Republic” characters are built to be versatile. Bastila edges out even Jolee, though, due to end game meta. You can bring her to the Star Forge on a Dark Side play through, and this helps immensely for the “average player” IMO. Just remember to level her CON and use her as a healer hybrid

2) Jolee Bindo - powerful but squishy, don’t forget that he is also a pain in the ass

3) Mission Vao / T3-M4 - Skills are valuable, spiking computers and hacking doors should definitely not be neglected IMO. Mission might have a slight edge on T3 just because she’s a more fleshed out character, though.

4) Carth Onasi - Bumped for his versatility early in game. The “average” player would find it hard to make it off Taris or Dantooine without him.

5) Everyone else - Poor HK-47, he ranks last on my list IMO even though his dialogue is by far the best in the game. He has one or two useful features though.


Should be noted that this is for the “average” player. Advanced players will notice that I’ve completely neglected to mention mines, demolition, and a few other really OP aspects of the game.

6

The Mess Hall / Re: Ranking All KOTOR 1 Companions

« on: February 21, 2020, 12:27:51 am »

Whoever wrote this had some problems with their gameplay style that become apparent once you nerd the fuck out over KOTOR like a few of us did back in the early 00’s. It’s pretty visible in their writing IMO.

7

Events: NA / Re: NRP/BBG Campaign Event 2.0(starts March 7th)

« on: February 19, 2020, 08:28:22 pm »

God bless

8

Competitive NA Events/Tournaments / Re: NA $50 3v3 Tournament Mon 2/24 9 EST - The Pit Weekly Pickups and Tournaments

« on: February 19, 2020, 08:19:07 pm »

Nihilus better be the carry 

9

Competitive NA Events/Tournaments / Re: NA 3v3 Tournament - The Pit Weekly Pickups and Tournaments MONDAY 9 EST

« on: February 17, 2020, 08:59:33 pm »

Anyone wanna pick me up?

We’ll pick you up, you’ll be RS3pkyz

10

Competitive NA Events/Tournaments / Re: NA 3v3 Tournament - The Pit Weekly Pickups and Tournaments MONDAY 9 EST

« on: February 17, 2020, 08:56:45 pm »

Team Name - Just Joshin Ja
Roster (3 Starters 1 Sub) - Runepkyz,Tbdpkyz, Tbdpkyz, Subpkyz

If ur Runepkyz I’ll be Scapepkyz or 07pkyz

11

Competitive NA Events/Tournaments / Re: NA 3v3 Tournament - The Pit Weekly Pickups and Tournaments MONDAY 9 EST

« on: February 17, 2020, 01:57:15 pm »

I would sign up for this but I’m bad at melee


pls do pug

12

The Mess Hall / Re: tired of nwwc admins

« on: February 16, 2020, 08:30:30 pm »

Board moderators can't warn people......

that is exactly what a cog in the imperial machine of the moderators would say

friends and countrymen we must free the political prisoners maniac and oatmeal from the jailhouses of NWL, we must seize the threads of production for nwwc, and we must install plushka as our new ruler

13

The Mess Hall / Re: tired of nwwc admins

« on: February 15, 2020, 05:26:47 pm »

Team Afro-Eurasia when


Seriously though, I don’t know the full story, but from the side of it Golden is presenting it seems like there are a few admins who are erm, hmm, uhh, how do you say it, hmmm, ah, biased :\

14

The Mess Hall / Re: When do you think the game was at its prime ?

« on: February 12, 2020, 06:29:26 pm »

CIA World Factbook confirms, Flusha is the best EU

15

The Mess Hall / Re: An Apology To God, Country, and Community

« on: February 11, 2020, 03:31:43 pm »

I cant tell if the madness has spread or if winters is building a theologians online forum through plagiarism

“Madness” and “spread” shouldn’t be in the same sentence unless you’re talking about how superstitious Medieval peasants and such sometimes believed madness was contagious. Now excuse me as I’m consumed with madness at the inconsistency of my toast’s buttery spread.