Flying Squirrel Entertainment

Mount & Blade Warband: Napoleonic Wars => General Discussion => Suggestions & Bug Reports => Topic started by: Cpt.Griffin on August 31, 2015, 05:16:39 am

Title: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Cpt.Griffin on August 31, 2015, 05:16:39 am
It occurred to me how unrealistic the game is in terms of interpreting the game mechanics of cavalry; in particular - heavy cavalry. Historically, lighter cavalry employed by Dragoons and Hussars; if charging and running into an enemy infantry; would certainly knock him down and cause injury.

But a large, heavy cavalry charger - if running at full gallop - 40-48 km/h, from an animal that weighs over a ton, is likely to inflict serious injury or even death - particularly if you  were trampled by several.

I think there ought to be a mod for lovers of the Cavalry that properly interprets Cavalry mechanics.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Turin Turambar on August 31, 2015, 08:25:55 am
And cav vs cav fights did not mean that the opponents circle each other for 20 mins before they kill something, but that's just how NW is.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: junedragon on August 31, 2015, 10:04:10 am
People already cry and nerf(with dumb rules)/ban cav in events because they get tired of getting trashed by it and are too lazy to learn anti-cav.

The butthurt if cav was buffed at this point would be legendary.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Nick Lazanis on August 31, 2015, 11:09:02 am

It's a game. Not a war simulator.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: AeroNinja on August 31, 2015, 11:10:19 am

It's a game. Not a war simulator.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Nipplestockings on August 31, 2015, 11:22:52 am

It's a game. Not a war simulator.

Laziest excuse for imbalance ever. I agree that it's not worth it to change anything at this point, though.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Nick Lazanis on August 31, 2015, 11:25:22 am
Aye. It is pretty lazy. Also,I highly doubt there is a cavalry mod like that for NW,If it was clientside you would just get kicked from every server.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Von Bergen on August 31, 2015, 11:26:42 am
As far as mine experience with cav on this game goes, its all about how skilled the Cav is. If they attack a weakened enemy at the right point, a cav united can be as fatal as in realitiy  :)
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Miller786 on August 31, 2015, 11:48:42 am
the thing that makes it unrealistic is the high maneuverability of the horses (that could be simply changed in theory) that makes the 20min high speed circle around fights possible, it should also take longer for the horse to change its speed, horses look more like motorbikes than actual horses in game.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: The Mighty McLovin on August 31, 2015, 02:49:33 pm
NW will never be historically accurate and if it was accurate it wouldn't be fun to play with Warband physics.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Ted on August 31, 2015, 03:10:31 pm
If you wanted to be historical accurate horses wouldn't charge into a wall of bayonets. That's why the the caree was invented.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Miller786 on August 31, 2015, 03:34:42 pm
im not talking about anything impossible or simulative, just look at the deluge, their horse handling is very good compared to the laughable one in NW, however horses there have more hp and if get ran over by one you drop your weapon
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Rhen on September 10, 2015, 09:55:53 am
I value all your opinions,


but you all suck. If you spend the same time on practicing as you did on complaining, you wouldn't have a problem with "anti-cav" stuff
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Coconut on September 10, 2015, 06:03:26 pm
here's some cav realism for you. This is what bracing a bayonet against cav does, the same thing also happens if you have 5 men on either side of you bracing as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=5&v=c0APWuhRkB0
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Peppers on September 10, 2015, 11:34:38 pm
Realistic cav.... okay lets have horses be able to trample you then because muh realism. Heavy horses just outrageously trample you do you understand what curassiers used to be able to do with the heavy steed under them? stop with this bullshit learn to effectively anti-cav it isnt hard.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Shadow on September 11, 2015, 12:24:21 am
Much teach us your ways, Pepper. Do you has suggestion? ;) ;D
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Cpt.Griffin on September 11, 2015, 02:43:57 am
The finer points of exploiting opportunities, timing, and tactics when fighting as Cavalry is a tough lesson to learn, because the majority of regiments fight as Infantry. Fighting as Infantry is quite easy by comparison of mastering the art of having to ride and fight simultaneously, exploit openings and know when and where to charge. This is why I believe that even though fighting and playing as Cavalry is more enjoyable when it works, most people defer not to because they generally don't have the patience to learn it.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: junedragon on September 11, 2015, 06:24:23 am
^ In a nutshell

The Cycle of NW Cavalry

1) People are too lazy to learn anti-cav (which requires just a little time and effort). 2) They get tired of getting their asses handed to them on a weekly basis by those who have put time into getting cav down. 3) They just cry "nerf pls", limit to 10 cav or less, ban lances, slay for "ramboing" 2 feet away from the other cav while circling, and ignore blatant entire-line FOL's against cav or outright allow it. 4) "huh thats weird, why do cav regs not want to participate in our events".  5) Repeat

Meanwhile anyone vaguely competent with a bayonet knows they can easily outreach and outdamage cav (aside from lances which are easy to block)

And if we are going full realism (in a game where 1 person can kill 10 others by spinning like a top or stab someone's horse out from under them at full gallop without getting crushed by it) I guess inf should have their wrists broken when they block a cav sabre at a gallop, slashes should be 1 hit kills (mounted or dismounted with any force/momentum), and a lance travelling at high speed should be virtually unblockable.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Miller786 on September 11, 2015, 03:01:46 pm
like if backstabbing on a horse that among other laughable things reaches 50km/h in 3 seconds, does 360s turns in a second while standing still, does 90 degrees turns at max speed, can stop instantly stop while riding at full speed was hard, haha.
Im not saying cav is op, it can be easily taken down with bayos, just saying its ridiculous and it doesnt take a genius to stick a sabre in someone s neck while they re turned in the other direction riding a ferrari
*braces for mindless hate wave*
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Rhen on September 11, 2015, 08:10:38 pm
like if backstabbing on a horse that among other laughable things reaches 50km/h in 3 seconds, does 360s turns in a second while standing still, does 90 degrees turns at max speed, can stop instantly stop while riding at full speed was hard, haha.
Im not saying cav is op, it can be easily taken down with bayos, just saying its ridiculous and it doesnt take a genius to stick a sabre in someone s neck while they re turned in the other direction riding a ferrari
*braces for mindless hate wave*

You can't insta-turn at full speed.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: junedragon on September 11, 2015, 10:25:11 pm
like if backstabbing on a horse that among other laughable things reaches 50km/h in 3 seconds, does 360s turns in a second while standing still, does 90 degrees turns at max speed, can stop instantly stop while riding at full speed was hard, haha.
Im not saying cav is op, it can be easily taken down with bayos, just saying its ridiculous and it doesnt take a genius to stick a sabre in someone s neck while they re turned in the other direction riding a ferrari
*braces for mindless hate wave*

If I had a nickel every time a reg said "cav is easy" then took on a good cav reg and got utterly trashed, I could buy a real Ferrari.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Peppers on September 11, 2015, 11:28:42 pm
^ In a nutshell

The Cycle of NW Cavalry

1) People are too lazy to learn anti-cav (which requires just a little time and effort). 2) They get tired of getting their asses handed to them on a weekly basis by those who have put time into getting cav down. 3) They just cry "nerf pls", limit to 10 cav or less, ban lances, slay for "ramboing" 2 feet away from the other cav while circling, and ignore blatant entire-line FOL's against cav or outright allow it. 4) "huh thats weird, why do cav regs not want to participate in our events".  5) Repeat

Meanwhile anyone vaguely competent with a bayonet knows they can easily outreach and outdamage cav (aside from lances which are easy to block)

And if we are going full realism (in a game where 1 person can kill 10 others by spinning like a top or stab someone's horse out from under them at full gallop without getting crushed by it) I guess inf should have their wrists broken when they block a cav sabre at a gallop, slashes should be 1 hit kills (mounted or dismounted with any force/momentum), and a lance travelling at high speed should be virtually unblockable.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Cooper on September 12, 2015, 12:35:56 pm
One time, there were an former infantry officer from the 6te in which i was a member before as well. So, he has been my officer.
I had my cav regiment running for quite some time now and he was part in an own cav regiment for about 3 weeks.
He contacted me and said that cav is pretty cool and thought that he now is pretty good with cav and also his regiment is pretty good against other cav regs. While our chat was going on he invited me for a duel on his server. He really had some confidence back then, but the story weren't funny if the duel were fair or something. By now he was a bit fustrated and stopped our little fight. He said that he is really surprised loosing so much, but for me, he also sounded like he learned something out of it.
Long story, short conclusion: Cav is easy to learn, but hard to master... and you really have to master it in some fields if you want to rek infantry.
Seriously; to all you funny infs here. You can't come to a conclusion about cav by playing it once in a lb, neither can you with other classes.

Back to topic: Almost every class here is unrealistic, but from my knowledge and experience pretty good balanced. Also the devs most likely won't change anything, so why even talking about it? ;)
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Glopaxi on September 12, 2015, 09:00:08 pm
like if backstabbing on a horse that among other laughable things reaches 50km/h in 3 seconds, does 360s turns in a second while standing still, does 90 degrees turns at max speed, can stop instantly stop while riding at full speed was hard, haha.
Im not saying cav is op, it can be easily taken down with bayos, just saying its ridiculous and it doesnt take a genius to stick a sabre in someone s neck while they re turned in the other direction riding a ferrari
*braces for mindless hate wave*

Cav's been nerfed in Napoleonic Wars. The speed of light horses was a lot more realistic (and faster) in Mount & Musket.


reaches 50km/h in 3 seconds

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMLBJk3K8qw
[close]

does 360s turns in a second while standing still

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46NBRgsbN74
[close]
does 90 degrees turns at max speed

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpFRlhPzQJ8
[close]

can stop instantly stop while riding at full speed was hard, haha.
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2gAOhLg8uw
[close]


yes men, I too think it would be hilarious to see NW horses get more realistic. And we all know you're the best at cav, Cooper. That's why Germany won this years cav tourney.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Rastignac on September 12, 2015, 09:16:42 pm
Excellent job with vids, Glopaxi, wanted to do it myself but had no determination to search YT for good examples. It seems like people who talk the loudest about this subject hardly ever see a horse outside the movies/video games. This thread is pretty much one, big misconception.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Miller786 on September 12, 2015, 11:30:25 pm
like if backstabbing on a horse that among other laughable things reaches 50km/h in 3 seconds, does 360s turns in a second while standing still, does 90 degrees turns at max speed, can stop instantly stop while riding at full speed was hard, haha.
Im not saying cav is op, it can be easily taken down with bayos, just saying its ridiculous and it doesnt take a genius to stick a sabre in someone s neck while they re turned in the other direction riding a ferrari
*braces for mindless hate wave*

Cav's been nerfed in Napoleonic Wars. The speed of light horses was a lot more realistic (and faster) in Mount & Musket.


reaches 50km/h in 3 seconds

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMLBJk3K8qw
[close]

does 360s turns in a second while standing still

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46NBRgsbN74
[close]
does 90 degrees turns at max speed

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpFRlhPzQJ8
[close]

can stop instantly stop while riding at full speed was hard, haha.
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2gAOhLg8uw
[close]


yes men, I too think it would be hilarious to see NW horses get more realistic. And we all know you're the best at cav, Cooper. That's why Germany won this years cav tourney.
yes because every nation in the napoleonic wars equipped thousands and thousands of half assed cavalrymen with perfectly trained expansive horses to send to the battlefield and get sliced to pieces by sabres, you probably never seen an horse in real life nor know what you're talking about, it takes tons of training and the right horses to do the things showed in the videos, its not like you jump on your horse, turn the engine on and start 360ing.
I mean, you gotta be a special kind of stupid to write that reply, its basically the same concept as if you asked me how fast can a napoleonic wars infantryman run and i sent you a link to bolt's world record run.
Excellent job with vids, Glopaxi, wanted to do it myself but had no determination to search YT for good examples. It seems like people who talk the loudest about this subject hardly ever see a horse outside the movies/video games. This thread is pretty much one, big misconception.
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F698%2F489%2F2f7.png&hash=1fc9aeaf5ff4fcbe96fb1fc1ce80098579fb30ba)
Oh and by the way, those are not 50km/h in 3 seconds and that is not an instant full stop.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Rastignac on September 12, 2015, 11:53:53 pm
yes because every nation in the napoleonic wars equipped thousands and thousands of half assed cavalrymen with perfectly trained expansive horses to send to the battlefield and get sliced to pieces by sabres, you probably never seen an horse in real life nor know what you're talking about, it takes tons of training and the right horses to do the things showed in the videos, its not like you jump on your horse, turn the engine on and start 360ing.

Actually, yes, the cavalry had trained horses because if they had not, they wouldn't be able to perform even the simplest charge. Or what am I talking about? A charge? They wouldn't be able to stand any near the battlefield in anything even slightly resembling a formation, because any unprepared horse would panic upon hearing the first canon shot and take his rider for random ride across the country... for as long as he would manage to keep himself in saddle. Even the people who re-create XIX century battles in our time and have fake musket fire, fake artillery fire (a bit less scary than real one, eh?) can't just bring any horse to such event and are forced to prepare their animals if they want to have any chance of obedience and composure on their side.

And no, it doesn't take any special horse nor years of special training for a horse to have a full gallop within few seconds. Saw and felt it under my very own bottom.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Glopaxi on September 13, 2015, 12:07:27 am
yes because every nation in the napoleonic wars equipped thousands and thousands of half assed cavalrymen with perfectly trained expansive horses to send to the battlefield and get sliced to pieces by sabres, you probably never seen an horse in real life nor know what you're talking about, it takes tons of training and the right horses to do the things showed in the videos, its not like you jump on your horse, turn the engine on and start 360ing.
Oh and by the way, those are not 50km/h in 3 seconds and that is not an instant full stop.

My bad, of course war horses didn't have any training. They were being put into the stables until they were old enough to have a saddle put on them and were ridden into death. You telling me you ever sat on a horse? How was it being led in a circle?
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Rhen on September 13, 2015, 09:27:38 am
And we all know you're the best at cav, Cooper. That's why Germany won this years cav tourney.

ouch
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Miller786 on September 13, 2015, 09:46:37 am
yes because every nation in the napoleonic wars equipped thousands and thousands of half assed cavalrymen with perfectly trained expansive horses to send to the battlefield and get sliced to pieces by sabres, you probably never seen an horse in real life nor know what you're talking about, it takes tons of training and the right horses to do the things showed in the videos, its not like you jump on your horse, turn the engine on and start 360ing.
yes because every nation in the napoleonic wars equipped thousands and thousands of half assed cavalrymen with perfectly trained expansive horses to send to the battlefield and get sliced to pieces by sabres, you probably never seen an horse in real life nor know what you're talking about, it takes tons of training and the right horses to do the things showed in the videos, its not like you jump on your horse, turn the engine on and start 360ing.
Oh and by the way, those are not 50km/h in 3 seconds and that is not an instant full stop.

My bad, of course war horses didn't have any training. They were being put into the stables until they were old enough to have a saddle put on them and were ridden into death. You telling me you ever sat on a horse? How was it being led in a circle?
Actually, yes, the cavalry had trained horses because if they had not, they wouldn't be able to perform even the simplest charge. Or what am I talking about? A charge? They wouldn't be able to stand any near the battlefield in anything even slightly resembling a formation, because any unprepared horse would panic upon hearing the first canon shot and take his rider for random ride across the country... for as long as he would manage to keep himself in saddle. Even the people who re-create XIX century battles in our time and have fake musket fire, fake artillery fire (a bit less scary than real one, eh?) can't just bring any horse to such event and are forced to prepare their animals if they want to have any chance of obedience and composure on their side.

And no, it doesn't take any special horse nor years of special training for a horse to have a full gallop within few seconds. Saw and felt it under my very own bottom.
we're talking about 360s here, of course a normal horse can do a full gallop but certainly it cant reach max speed in so few time as mount and blade and cannot stop instantly no matter how hard you look on the internet for the whatever race you wish, also gallop speed is different horse from horse.
You're trying to prove that NW cav is underpowered in handling compared to normal irl horses by showing me races of famous horses, i can not help but to laugh about it, stop trying to turn it around.
yes because every nation in the napoleonic wars equipped thousands and thousands of half assed cavalrymen with perfectly trained expansive horses to send to the battlefield and get sliced to pieces by sabres, you probably never seen an horse in real life nor know what you're talking about, it takes tons of training and the right horses to do the things showed in the videos, its not like you jump on your horse, turn the engine on and start 360ing.
Oh and by the way, those are not 50km/h in 3 seconds and that is not an instant full stop.

My bad, of course war horses didn't have any training. They were being put into the stables until they were old enough to have a saddle put on them and were ridden into death. You telling me you ever sat on a horse? How was it being led in a circle?
they were trained to stand gunfire but certainly not in race or circus numbers, i work with horses in my summer holidays and i see them nearly everyday.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Cooper on September 13, 2015, 11:24:42 am
And we all know you're the best at cav, Cooper. That's why Germany won this years cav tourney.

ouch
Im not surprised about that Rhen.
Intrestingly this isn't really the topic that would get me pissed. I have no regrets in getting the second place.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: DarkLight on September 13, 2015, 03:59:44 pm
Glopaxi made that comment making use of the experience from all the successful cavalry regiment she has leaded.

oh
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Glopaxi on September 13, 2015, 05:27:12 pm
we're talking about 360s here, of course a normal horse can do a full gallop but certainly it cant reach max speed in so few time as mount and blade and cannot stop instantly no matter how hard you look on the internet for the whatever race you wish, also gallop speed is different horse from horse.
You're trying to prove that NW cav is underpowered in handling compared to normal irl horses by showing me races of famous horses, i can not help but to laugh about it, stop trying to turn it around.
they were trained to stand gunfire but certainly not in race or circus numbers, i work with horses in my summer holidays and i see them nearly everyday.

I don't know with what kind of trucks you work with in your summer holidays but I am mainly talking about the light horses which are comparable to the sport horses & average ponies. Not every nation used heavy and robust horses.
Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3219a2.medialib.glogster.com%2Fmedia%2F3b%2F3b80963513e8faf72a2523689a8ef10f04e970fea2b7a938065a42d47e302129%2Fhorse-war-jpg.jpg&hash=8684b2b6e2985a2cc5d5331668b3d3aa006b33de)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Cornet_Wilkin_11th_Hussars.jpg)
[close]


Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAUPI_kwIIo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FivequewrVs
[close]

Check the turns, check the speed, check the right into canter. Those are kids on ponies. I bet they make their living on their famous horses.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: junedragon on September 13, 2015, 05:31:13 pm
cannot stop instantly no matter how hard you look on the internet for the whatever race you wish, also gallop speed is different horse from horse.
You're trying to prove that NW cav is underpowered in handling compared to normal irl horses by showing me races of famous horses, i can not

Im still laughing at the fact you think NW horses stop instantly (hint: they dont unless bucked)

Also that you think horses can sprint instantly in nw (they take several seconds to reach full speed) or that their acceleration is totally unrealistic. Many real horses can reach speeds of over 40km/h in just 5-6 strides (ie one or two seconds). Some lighter breeds can even reach speeds in excess of 60km/h in that time.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Miller786 on September 13, 2015, 08:09:57 pm
cannot stop instantly no matter how hard you look on the internet for the whatever race you wish, also gallop speed is different horse from horse.
You're trying to prove that NW cav is underpowered in handling compared to normal irl horses by showing me races of famous horses, i can not

Im still laughing at the fact you think NW horses stop instantly (hint: they dont unless bucked)

Also that you think horses can sprint instantly in nw (they take several seconds to reach full speed) or that their acceleration is totally unrealistic. Many real horses can reach speeds of over 40km/h in just 5-6 strides (ie one or two seconds). Some lighter breeds can even reach speeds in excess of 60km/h in that time.
ctrl+j.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Rhen on September 15, 2015, 10:29:29 am
Glopaxi made that comment making use of the experience from all the successful cavalry regiment she has leaded.

oh

No worries, Cooper, DarkLight got your back.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Cooper on September 15, 2015, 12:12:22 pm
Glopaxi made that comment making use of the experience from all the successful cavalry regiment she has leaded.

oh

No worries, Cooper, DarkLight got your back.
My life got saved  :'( :-* :-*
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Rhen on September 15, 2015, 12:22:20 pm
Glopaxi made that comment making use of the experience from all the successful cavalry regiment she has leaded.

oh

No worries, Cooper, DarkLight got your back.
My life got saved  :'( :-* :-*

Was a good comeback, too, though. -_o_-
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Batraan on October 02, 2015, 01:03:02 am
cannot stop instantly no matter how hard you look on the internet for the whatever race you wish, also gallop speed is different horse from horse.
You're trying to prove that NW cav is underpowered in handling compared to normal irl horses by showing me races of famous horses, i can not

Im still laughing at the fact you think NW horses stop instantly (hint: they dont unless bucked)

Also that you think horses can sprint instantly in nw (they take several seconds to reach full speed) or that their acceleration is totally unrealistic. Many real horses can reach speeds of over 40km/h in just 5-6 strides (ie one or two seconds). Some lighter breeds can even reach speeds in excess of 60km/h in that time.
ctrl+j.

He did say unless bucked.
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Miller786 on October 02, 2015, 03:26:19 pm
What is the point of saying that they can't stop unless they're bucked then? it's like saying cars cant stop unless you use the brakes...
Title: Re: Unrealistic Cavalry
Post by: Batraan on October 02, 2015, 09:33:12 pm
Control j is bucking a horse. It's the only way you can stop a horse instantly. That is what he said. All other ways take a couple of seconds. (Running into a wall also bucks the horse.)