Author Topic: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.  (Read 11599 times)

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Offline Piercee

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2017, 01:29:10 am »
Don't know if it was mentioned before but what really annoys me in melee is the glitch if someone gets hit and he basically slides off to a side because of the stun.
Alot of times when you hit him at the position he slided into you won't be able to hit him, the stab goes through the person.
I think it may be a de-sync issue or the hitbox glitching out after a person gets hit and slides off with a stun.
Still really annoying and I get it daily.



Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2017, 04:33:30 am »

i know its balance thread, but here i collected issues and thoughts of an ordinary NW player like myself

- add a cheer animation, there is already a unofficial addon that proves its possible
https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=23374.0

- add a dirt effect on a spyglass to make it more realistic, the current one is just eeh.

- Make big ships more durable, a single cannonball can sink the whole ship

- fix the brown boats, you can easily push off people from the back because there is no solid object to prevent them from being pushed off.

- this issue has been mostly fixed by the server hosters and most of you aware of that, fix the glitch that crashes server when you pick up two flags

- there is a boat that has a cannon on it, a cannon that does not fire, and it lacks object placement, making it a good hideout for players

- Protection against game altering mods that give an unfair advantage to the players. if it is possible.

- in commander battle, sometimes bots appear to be floating in the sky

- add crouch walk, other mods proved it its possible, why can't we have it in NW?

- fix object placement in the big ship, that causes players constantly get stuck( check screens )
Spoiler


[close]
as of right now, no.

client side, so no.  you can make a mod or find someone who made one to do that.

eh, no changes as of right now.

aware of it, but i believe its an engine issue with moving props and people.

while i believe we fixed it with code, having servers up to date helps.  as does having good servers in general.(a lot of servers cant even handle 100 people, which sucks for everyone)

no clue, you would need to give a screenshot of it.   

engine issue when there are a lot of agents on the map doing stuff.    servers just need to lower the amount of troops each person has, to limit that issue. 

no.

what ship is that?   i dont think i ever seen that.

Just to add to that big boat, there's one stair that is buggy walking up. The other is smooth.

screen shots if you could.    IDK how much we can fiddle with scene props.(ill ask vince)   i know there are some buildings that are wonky, among other stuff. 


ill stop this post for now, as my graphics card is being stupid. 
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Offline Riddlez

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2017, 06:01:23 am »
Make beards on sapper mandatory
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Mohawky

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2017, 10:44:36 am »
Allow Admins to give some form of buff when they are in play - like officers / musicians / generals.

Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2017, 11:57:11 am »
Allow Admins to give some form of buff when they are in play - like officers / musicians / generals.
that would be something for a server to do, than for everyone in this patch. 
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Offline Ambiguous

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2017, 12:37:54 pm »

Offline McPero

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2017, 12:37:49 pm »
1. Slightly decrease bayonet downstab range. Ever since the patch that change stabs' stats (before up and down had same speed and range), downstab is used far more often and it has ghost range, most of melee is just downstab spamming/backpedaling.

2. Decrease health by 50% of all units, so you don't have to stab someone 6 times before he dies, also prevents stupid tactic of getting stabbed on purpose to spam stab kill.

3. Return double-x-ing, it increases potential melee skillcap. Don't see why it was removed in the first place, if a bug is positive its not a bug. Double-x-ing could be done by anyone and it took skill to use it properly, it made feinting actually useful, nowadays only feinting that works is Rikimaru's (the one where you look up as you change attack direction), it makes blocking more of a challenge which is currently to easy only two directions in bayonet vs bayonet scenario, make at least these two directions harder to block.

4. Remove pokes if its possible, just remove armor or sth.

We all know this patch is coming because of Holdfast and you cannot compete with it in graphics, new features, but you can make melee that has high skill cap to keep people that play the game for competitive reasons.

Edit: This is post regarding balance changes for infantry gameplay, mostly competitive melee, I know nothing about Cav and cav vs infantry is not present in competitive. I also think officer swords are fine they are not to fast, people just complain because they aren't used to sideblocking, plus sword should realistically be better weapon than bayonet in the kind of melee that is in NW, so scattered people (since formations, like bayonet phalanx don't work).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 12:53:59 pm by McPero »

Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2017, 02:12:04 pm »
1. Slightly decrease bayonet downstab range. Ever since the patch that change stabs' stats (before up and down had same speed and range), downstab is used far more often and it has ghost range, most of melee is just downstab spamming/backpedaling.

2. Decrease health by 50% of all units, so you don't have to stab someone 6 times before he dies, also prevents stupid tactic of getting stabbed on purpose to spam stab kill.

3. Return double-x-ing, it increases potential melee skillcap. Don't see why it was removed in the first place, if a bug is positive its not a bug. Double-x-ing could be done by anyone and it took skill to use it properly, it made feinting actually useful, nowadays only feinting that works is Rikimaru's (the one where you look up as you change attack direction), it makes blocking more of a challenge which is currently to easy only two directions in bayonet vs bayonet scenario, make at least these two directions harder to block.

4. Remove pokes if its possible, just remove armor or sth.

We all know this patch is coming because of Holdfast and you cannot compete with it in graphics, new features, but you can make melee that has high skill cap to keep people that play the game for competitive reasons.

Edit: This is post regarding balance changes for infantry gameplay, mostly competitive melee, I know nothing about Cav and cav vs infantry is not present in competitive. I also think officer swords are fine they are not to fast, people just complain because they aren't used to sideblocking, plus sword should realistically be better weapon than bayonet in the kind of melee that is in NW, so scattered people (since formations, like bayonet phalanx don't work).
no plans going to change that.

no.  You can still one shot people with a good stab.

lol.  i remember those days.  It did the opposite of increasing the skill gap.   stabbing people without an animation didn't increase the skill gap.  It was made even more apparent when it was removed, and the people who thought they were good got trashed on over and over because they were a one trick pony abusing it. the relied on the lack of an animation to get kills.(it was sad how many people relied on it tbf)   It also had effect vs cav, because the cav would go in then die without ever seeing them stab.   It was a bs bug and there was a reason many servers/events banned it.  Bayonet fights are simple.  Up or down, down or up.  Because they are so basic, people try to find some new ways of playing like having a seizure to try and get an advantage.  That is just the nature of a game where bayonets are the primary weapon.  Had it been swords instead, you would still see some weird stuff, but the options available would be that much more.   If the competitive side really wanted to spice things up, they could get together and make their own melee patch.  Good luck though on trying to get anyone to agree on how things should be. 

i would like pokes gone too, but idk if that is fixable.

this patch wasn't made because of holdfast.  I will also note that many of the fse devs are also devs for holdfast.

most people in this game could never block swords, sadly. 
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Offline McPero

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2017, 02:28:16 pm »
no plans going to change that.

no.  You can still one shot people with a good stab.

lol.  i remember those days.  It did the opposite of increasing the skill gap.   stabbing people without an animation didn't increase the skill gap.  It was made even more apparent when it was removed, and the people who thought they were good got trashed on over and over because they were a one trick pony abusing it. the relied on the lack of an animation to get kills.(it was sad how many people relied on it tbf)   It also had effect vs cav, because the cav would go in then die without ever seeing them stab.   It was a bs bug and there was a reason many servers/events banned it.  Bayonet fights are simple.  Up or down, down or up.  Because they are so basic, people try to find some new ways of playing like having a seizure to try and get an advantage.  That is just the nature of a game where bayonets are the primary weapon.  Had it been swords instead, you would still see some weird stuff, but the options available would be that much more.   If the competitive side really wanted to spice things up, they could get together and make their own melee patch.  Good luck though on trying to get anyone to agree on how things should be. 

i would like pokes gone too, but idk if that is fixable.

this patch wasn't made because of holdfast.  I will also note that many of the fse devs are also devs for holdfast.

most people in this game could never block swords, sadly.
Downstab being overpowered is the main issue that is ruining melee apart from pokes and that blocking glitch. Can we get explanation why you don't want to balance melee?

You can one-shot with a "good stab" but it seems kinda random since models and hitboxes don't connect that well. Usually it takes 3 stabs to kill someone which is stupid. How many times people got 4 tabs on someone and than he oneshot them and won. There is no reason not to lower the health/armor idk how it is made.

I admit that I don't remember Age of Double-x-ing that well since it was long time ago. I remember that it just made feinting much faster and would have less time to block. Shame we can't see how it works now.

I remember someone saying that pokes are caused because of armor in Native, if you would be able to remove armor without breaking anything that might fix the problem.

I don't know what you mean with "community's own melee patch"? Could you tell me more about that.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 02:30:31 pm by McPero »

Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2017, 02:54:27 pm »
no plans going to change that.

no.  You can still one shot people with a good stab.

lol.  i remember those days.  It did the opposite of increasing the skill gap.   stabbing people without an animation didn't increase the skill gap.  It was made even more apparent when it was removed, and the people who thought they were good got trashed on over and over because they were a one trick pony abusing it. the relied on the lack of an animation to get kills.(it was sad how many people relied on it tbf)   It also had effect vs cav, because the cav would go in then die without ever seeing them stab.   It was a bs bug and there was a reason many servers/events banned it.  Bayonet fights are simple.  Up or down, down or up.  Because they are so basic, people try to find some new ways of playing like having a seizure to try and get an advantage.  That is just the nature of a game where bayonets are the primary weapon.  Had it been swords instead, you would still see some weird stuff, but the options available would be that much more.   If the competitive side really wanted to spice things up, they could get together and make their own melee patch.  Good luck though on trying to get anyone to agree on how things should be. 

i would like pokes gone too, but idk if that is fixable.

this patch wasn't made because of holdfast.  I will also note that many of the fse devs are also devs for holdfast.

most people in this game could never block swords, sadly.
Downstab being overpowered is the main issue that is ruining melee apart from pokes and that blocking glitch. Can we get explanation why you don't want to balance melee?

You can one-shot with a "good stab" but it seems kinda random since models and hitboxes don't connect that well. Usually it takes 3 stabs to kill someone which is stupid. How many times people got 4 tabs on someone and than he oneshot them and won. There is no reason not to lower the health/armor idk how it is made.

I admit that I don't remember Age of Double-x-ing that well since it was long time ago. I remember that it just made feinting much faster and would have less time to block. Shame we can't see how it works now.

I remember someone saying that pokes are caused because of armor in Native, if you would be able to remove armor without breaking anything that might fix the problem.

I don't know what you mean with "community's own melee patch"? Could you tell me more about that.
can you show me a clear consensus what people want changed, out side of pokes and bugs?  I find the upstab is still viable even after all these years. 

if people are taking 4 stabs, it is because the stabs themselves weren't good stabs.  why they weren't good stabs may vary.  yea, every now and then you get that solid hit that doesn't 1 hit kill, but it takes off most of their health, where just a decent stab will kill.(maybe even a poke)   

armor and health can be tweaked in the items kind file.  It is where you can give weapons more or less range, damage, etc,.  It is also where you give clothes armor or horses more health and armor.  Troops health among other stuff is found in the troops file.   

well, i there was some delay added, idk where.  you could find and remove it, and see how it is nowadays/ 

community patch, as in, get all the people who know all there is to know about the melee, agree on  some change, then apply it.  anyone could do it.  as long as its server side.  client side changes make it harder to be compatible.  you, or anyone else could organize it. 
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Offline McPero

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2017, 05:41:40 pm »
can you show me a clear consensus what people want changed, out side of pokes and bugs?  I find the upstab is still viable even after all these years. 

if people are taking 4 stabs, it is because the stabs themselves weren't good stabs.  why they weren't good stabs may vary.  yea, every now and then you get that solid hit that doesn't 1 hit kill, but it takes off most of their health, where just a decent stab will kill.(maybe even a poke)   

armor and health can be tweaked in the items kind file.  It is where you can give weapons more or less range, damage, etc,.  It is also where you give clothes armor or horses more health and armor.  Troops health among other stuff is found in the troops file.   

well, i there was some delay added, idk where.  you could find and remove it, and see how it is nowadays/ 

community patch, as in, get all the people who know all there is to know about the melee, agree on  some change, then apply it.  anyone could do it.  as long as its server side.  client side changes make it harder to be compatible.  you, or anyone else could organize it.
The downstab being overpowered is my opinion though I think many agree, downstab spam backpedaling is very effective and takes little skill, though it can be countered but most people find it annoying to face. Up attack is of course still viable but I think it is weaker.

I agree you can know when a stab will be good and oneshot and when it will be weak, but there is still kinda random and random is opposite to skill. Even most experienced players sometimes stab someone thinking yeah that one killed him and walk away yet he is still alive. All this can be avoided by reducing health, you get stabbed once, max twice you die it's even more realistic though that is not what we are looking for. You make mistake miss a chamber/sideblock you die. Only problem I see with reducing health is that it sucks when you get randomly shot in linebattle and you would die faster with lower health, but way around it is increasing melee weapons damage or decreasing health and ranged damage.

All this is my opinion but I think many would agree, so only way would be polls to see what people want.

Offline McPero

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2017, 07:41:42 pm »
community patch, as in, get all the people who know all there is to know about the melee, agree on  some change, then apply it.  anyone could do it.  as long as its server side.  client side changes make it harder to be compatible.  you, or anyone else could organize it.
If I understand that correctly basically people would get that patch for themselves and there would be server that would be running with that patch?

Soz for double post

Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2017, 02:55:51 am »
can you show me a clear consensus what people want changed, out side of pokes and bugs?  I find the upstab is still viable even after all these years. 

if people are taking 4 stabs, it is because the stabs themselves weren't good stabs.  why they weren't good stabs may vary.  yea, every now and then you get that solid hit that doesn't 1 hit kill, but it takes off most of their health, where just a decent stab will kill.(maybe even a poke)   

armor and health can be tweaked in the items kind file.  It is where you can give weapons more or less range, damage, etc,.  It is also where you give clothes armor or horses more health and armor.  Troops health among other stuff is found in the troops file.   

well, i there was some delay added, idk where.  you could find and remove it, and see how it is nowadays/ 

community patch, as in, get all the people who know all there is to know about the melee, agree on  some change, then apply it.  anyone could do it.  as long as its server side.  client side changes make it harder to be compatible.  you, or anyone else could organize it.
The downstab being overpowered is my opinion though I think many agree, downstab spam backpedaling is very effective and takes little skill, though it can be countered but most people find it annoying to face. Up attack is of course still viable but I think it is weaker.

I agree you can know when a stab will be good and oneshot and when it will be weak, but there is still kinda random and random is opposite to skill. Even most experienced players sometimes stab someone thinking yeah that one killed him and walk away yet he is still alive. All this can be avoided by reducing health, you get stabbed once, max twice you die it's even more realistic though that is not what we are looking for. You make mistake miss a chamber/sideblock you die. Only problem I see with reducing health is that it sucks when you get randomly shot in linebattle and you would die faster with lower health, but way around it is increasing melee weapons damage or decreasing health and ranged damage.

All this is my opinion but I think many would agree, so only way would be polls to see what people want.
you can have say a GF server or a tourney server with one set of values for health, damage, armor, etc,. and leave the lb servers alone. 

community patch, as in, get all the people who know all there is to know about the melee, agree on  some change, then apply it.  anyone could do it.  as long as its server side.  client side changes make it harder to be compatible.  you, or anyone else could organize it.
If I understand that correctly basically people would get that patch for themselves and there would be server that would be running with that patch?

Soz for double post
someone would take the source code(the current one or the one i am working on currently) and modify it to the way people want, then put the files on the server.   As long as they were careful with what they changed, you dont have to do anything but join the server and play.  You wouldn't need to dl anything.
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Offline Theodin

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2017, 03:46:27 am »
Stab damage may be random but it is strongly correlated with momentum and swings, while it's true that a 1 stab kill is not guaranteed there are attacks that do more damage than others on a fairly consistent basis

Messing with the health of players would be unfair to players who play using those certain stabs and would further destabilize melee.

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Offline McPero

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Re: Help wanted for upcoming Napoleonic Wars patch, balancing thread.
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2017, 07:31:51 am »
Stab damage may be random but it is strongly correlated with momentum and swings, while it's true that a 1 stab kill is not guaranteed there are attacks that do more damage than others on a fairly consistent basis

Messing with the health of players would be unfair to players who play using those certain stabs and would further destabilize melee.
Every change would destabilize melee for some time, that is expected and would be unfair for some players. But realistically, currently best stab is downstab into legs on max range, only instakill stab I know, which makes little sense, pretty much anything that isn't legs or hands is lethal and even legs and hands should be, but this is not about realism. It is about making melee fair for most of the people and also more interesting.
Moving forward is supposed to do more damage, though backpedaling downstab (so moving backwards) is 80% oneshot.