Poll

Could Germany have won on the eastern front?

Yes Easily
2 (14.3%)
No, impossible
6 (42.9%)
Yes But with heavy loss, a pyrrhic victory
6 (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Voting closed: June 11, 2018, 09:42:55 pm

Author Topic: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?  (Read 13262 times)

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Offline vanKliff

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2018, 05:52:34 pm »
The point was, that the entire eastern campaign, designed by Hitler had a worthful purpose, not that it was a lunatic attempt to wipe out bolshevism as said by stupid german generals after the war, building uppon their memoires (btw incompetent german generals who surrendernd to the west). Paulus himself was against striking eastern at first because HE WAS a competant logistic master and saw that it was a madmans plan to fall into the UdssR in closed front, more then 800km . If the gernerals would have followed the ground points of the eastern campaign accordingly to Hitlers goals, the eastern gamble would have paid of IMO. NOT TO SAY THAT THAT WOULD BE A GOOD THING. Point is, german high command were morons, Hitlers points to attack Russia were right.

There was no other way to produce enough Airplanes, U-Boots and Tanks with the ressources germany had by the middle of 1941, to end Britian and the Allies. And after the USA joined the War in late 41, getting the Oil was a thing of survival against allied superioty.

So if generals would have just defended northern and centre russian front after Nov 41 and focused striking south as Hilter later did when he take over command (too late tho) Operation Barberossa would have paid of and would at least delayed Germanys defeat to the late 40s.

Still Probs to those poor men fighting at Stalingrad for both sides, surely the battlefield closest to hell in the 1940s
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 05:55:27 pm by vanKliff »
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Offline Sgt.Winters

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2018, 06:27:36 pm »
Stalin was batshit insane.  He would not have surrendered even if the whole country was subjugated and the remaining troops forced to conduct extensive guerrilla warfare.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2018, 06:59:30 pm »
Stalin really didn't suffer that much strategic defeats in the war... I mean... I was able to continue large-scale operations and grind down the Germans... sure the Germans captured tens of thousands of soviet troops and even 115k once... but those really weren't terrible losses for the soviets...
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Offline William

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2018, 07:47:01 pm »
but what if Germany had nukes? Would you still give the edge to Russia?
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Offline Sgt.Winters

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2018, 07:56:00 pm »
but what if Germany had nukes? Would you still give the edge to Russia?
They would have won, but considering the "rather" anti-semetic tone in Germany at the time, dis shit be a pipe dream yo.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2018, 12:13:45 am »
Stalin was batshit insane.  He would not have surrendered even if the whole country was subjugated and the remaining troops forced to conduct extensive guerrilla warfare.

The Politburo came close to removing him in the Summer of 1941 (he probably had a mental breakdown), and had Stalingrad or Moscow fallen he'd have been out for sure. So whether he'd have fought on or not doesn't really matter.

Stalin really didn't suffer that much strategic defeats in the war... I mean... I was able to continue large-scale operations and grind down the Germans... sure the Germans captured tens of thousands of soviet troops and even 115k once... but those really weren't terrible losses for the soviets...
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Stalin lost most of Ukraine and the Baltics. When Kiev fell 600,000 Soviet troops were killed or captured which was around a fifth of the Soviet army at the time. USSR was one defeat away from collapse in 1941/1942.

Offline Sgt.Winters

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2018, 12:26:19 am »
It’s plausible that Germany could have won the theatre, but holding a firm grasp on the USSR would surely have been near impossible.

Also I wouldn’t be surprised if Joseph blew a gasket everytime a Soviet army was encircled.

Offline junedragon

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2018, 01:37:11 am »
Best real chance for Germany imo would have been if they could convince Turkey to join and invade from the south while they pushed on Stalingrad and Moscow, simultaneously:

A) providing a direct route of attack into the caucasus and the essential soviet oil fields of Azerbaijan

B) cutting off/rerouting the Lend Lease provided line of supply to the USSR (through Iran and the caucasus)

If Japan was able to attack too I dont see the USSR being able to withstand on 3 fronts with a large portion of their oil resources destroyed/seized and little to no material support from the US.

This is still a stretch imo.
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Offline StevenChilton

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2018, 01:53:09 am »
It’s plausible that Germany could have won the theatre, but holding a firm grasp on the USSR would surely have been near impossible.

Far from impossible. The Soviet population and industrial capacity was heavily concentrated West of the Urals (essentially 'European Russia' and Ukraine). Once you hold that then you don't really need to go any further.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2018, 01:35:48 pm »
It’s plausible that Germany could have won the theatre, but holding a firm grasp on the USSR would surely have been near impossible.

Far from impossible. The Soviet population and industrial capacity was heavily concentrated West of the Urals (essentially 'European Russia' and Ukraine). Once you hold that then you don't really need to go any further.

You'd need an occupation force that would need to be larger than the ininvasion force if you would stop there.
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Offline StevenChilton

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2018, 03:41:06 pm »
That makes no sense, and they occupied France with c.100,000 men.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2018, 04:35:23 pm »

Far from impossible. The Soviet population and industrial capacity was heavily concentrated West of the Urals (essentially 'European Russia' and Ukraine). Once you hold that then you don't really need to go any further.


You'd need not continue further than that for all the resources... France was completely beaten and surrendered. Russia could still use guerilla warfare or unconventional means to harass the germans, especially if the Russians would still have land to lvie from. It would become a living hell for the Germans and they'd need a huge stabalization force to keep such attacks from happening.
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Offline StevenChilton

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2018, 07:07:25 pm »

Far from impossible. The Soviet population and industrial capacity was heavily concentrated West of the Urals (essentially 'European Russia' and Ukraine). Once you hold that then you don't really need to go any further.


You'd need not continue further than that for all the resources... France was completely beaten and surrendered. Russia could still use guerilla warfare or unconventional means to harass the germans, especially if the Russians would still have land to lvie from. It would become a living hell for the Germans and they'd need a huge stabalization force to keep such attacks from happening.

You're assuming the Germans would have personally occupied everything from the Polish border to the Urals. That's not how they did it in WWI after Brest-Litovsk nor how they did it in France. It's very simple: you occupy the valuable bits and set up satellite states over the rest.

Offline Ted

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2018, 08:43:56 pm »

Far from impossible. The Soviet population and industrial capacity was heavily concentrated West of the Urals (essentially 'European Russia' and Ukraine). Once you hold that then you don't really need to go any further.


You'd need not continue further than that for all the resources... France was completely beaten and surrendered. Russia could still use guerilla warfare or unconventional means to harass the germans, especially if the Russians would still have land to lvie from. It would become a living hell for the Germans and they'd need a huge stabalization force to keep such attacks from happening.

You're assuming the Germans would have personally occupied everything from the Polish border to the Urals. That's not how they did it in WWI after Brest-Litovsk nor how they did it in France. It's very simple: you occupy the valuable bits and set up satellite states over the rest.

Dear failed leaders of mankind,
please follow this armchair advice brought to you by some random goy in an online forum when trying to form another global empire. Just make satellite states, whats so hard about it? I mean, you only need to click "vassalize country" and everything is going to be fine!
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I mean..... that what this man



did to Spain, and it totally worked! Tremendous!

Let's just keep comparing Brest-Litovsk which was based on a revolution within Russia itself to another war where an enemy from the outside basically united a whole country by murdering its citizens in the millions.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 08:48:39 pm by Ted »
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Offline StevenChilton

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Re: Could Germany have won on the eastern front?
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2018, 10:04:47 pm »
What an intelligent comment.

I'm sure the fact the Soviets did the exact same thing in Eastern/Central Europe post-1945 is irrelevant too.