Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 520179 times)

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Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3390 on: May 07, 2018, 12:17:44 am »
Well by the same logic, is there any point in any country having a military in the EU? A strong EU army can deter future threats and decrease our dependency on other powers like the US
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 12:37:06 am by Toffee »

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3391 on: May 07, 2018, 12:28:36 am »
It's also cost-effective, which is by far the most important reason it will happen.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3392 on: May 07, 2018, 01:29:27 am »
Well by the same logic, is there any point in any country having a military in the EU? A strong EU army can deter future threats and decrease our dependency on other powers like the US

Of course, because you maintain your defences in peace time. People arguing that EU defence should be revolutionised need to point to a very good reason for doing so. There's plenty of problems, not least that EU defence projects have a poor history (A400M total disaster, Galileo system similarly awful). Also I doubt many countries would willingly give up control over their military to Brussels/Berlin, as once you do that you have to accept you no longer have a foreign policy. France will be a big stumbling bloc as Paris won't want to lose control over 'Force de Frappe' nor its UN Security Council seat. French EU defence engagement has always been lukewarm anyway (France originally killed off defence integration in the 50s, dropped out of Eurofighter due to disagreements, tried to u-turn on the A400M, etc).

If the Brits are leaving, and if the French aren't keen, then you're off to a poor start as those are the only two EU military powers. And anyway, why are these units currently integrating with the Bundeswehr rather than the other way round? It's a joke army that's had to use broomsticks during NATO exercises. As always with EU matters politics comes before common sense and it'll be a total disaster as a result.

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3393 on: May 07, 2018, 01:42:18 am »
obviously it’s a difficult thing to get right with many barriers, but if it was done right then Europe would be a much safer place without having to rely on the US to act like our protector. By working together Europe can secure its future. That’s one of the big objections I have to leaving the EU, it pulls us further away from the people that we need to be working with for a better future.

I might be dreaming but if somebody in Europe were to come forward with a proposal of a joint force, where each country maybe only contributed a small number of troops at first. Each country that contributed would have a place on a board which decides on action.

Offline Olafson

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3394 on: May 07, 2018, 01:55:52 am »
Not talking about the other stuff, but the broomstick story, is as far as I know completely exaggerated. As far as I know German soldiers attached broomsticks painted black to various vehicles to make them seem like they are armed and not just reconnaissance/troop transports. You do that kind of stuff in the army, to confuse your enemy and show them that you are stronger than you actually are. The military did that ever since military was a thing, and it makes sense to do so.

Now, I did not really do much research into this, but this is what I read some time ago, I do not even know how long ago and where...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 02:02:34 am by Olafson »

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3395 on: May 07, 2018, 03:29:21 am »
From what I read they used broomsticks because they needed to simulate for an exercise and weren't able to bring the right equipment. Might be wrong, but it's still the case that the Bundeswehr probably couldn't fight a modern war in its current state.

I might be dreaming but if somebody in Europe were to come forward with a proposal of a joint force, where each country maybe only contributed a small number of troops at first. Each country that contributed would have a place on a board which decides on action.

That's basically NATO, and there's absolutely nothing to stop countries spending more on defence. The reason most capitals have cut back in recent years is because there's almost no military threat to Europe (unless you're in Russia's immediate back yard, and even then Putin's hugely overstretched). UK defence has chiefly relied on the Anglosphere for the best part of two centuries and there's no logic to change that.

The 'pool resources to save money and deliver better results' approach may sound good on paper, but when you compare the Eurofighter to the Dassault Rafale that might not be true in practice...


Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3396 on: May 07, 2018, 09:39:50 am »
My point is that if the US wants to withdraw support, then let them. We should defend ourselves. I would support a federalised country in Europe, but that’s just me. I don’t understand the entire sovereignty argument. Seems like people just put pride ahead of anything else.

Offline McPero

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3397 on: May 07, 2018, 10:05:04 am »
My point is that if the US wants to withdraw support, then let them. We should defend ourselves. I would support a federalised country in Europe, but that’s just me. I don’t understand the entire sovereignty argument. Seems like people just put pride ahead of anything else.
Europe needs to become federation and give more power to European parliament and also make a new system of electing MPs for it. But it is very important to keep cultural diversity across the states in federation. But I don't think that is happening so I hope my country just declares neutrality like Austria and Switzerland.
But EU doesn't needs strong military unless we should be scared of USA.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 10:09:11 am by McPero »

Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3398 on: May 07, 2018, 11:59:53 am »
My point is that if the US wants to withdraw support, then let them. We should defend ourselves. I would support a federalised country in Europe, but that’s just me. I don’t understand the entire sovereignty argument. Seems like people just put pride ahead of anything else.


Yes we should. But we can't.
Everyone here talks as if it is so easy to just cut the US out of the picture.... you can't.
I mean... really it is nice making this point because it cannot really be refuted, but the most important aspect of being able to defend yourself (Implying a breach in sovereignty thus conventional interstate warfighting) is a strategic displacement/movement (forgive me I do not know the English doctrinal term). Basically it mean moving a metric butt fuckload of troops and material.
The EU does not have the capacity of doing so. Not enough air-to-air refueling for a sustained air campaign. Not enough fuel and transportation capability for an extended ground campgain.

And that's just logsitics. Then the warfighting capability themselves. Communication systems that aren't linked and cannot be linked. The entire NATO force in Europe has maybe 3 AWACS planes VITAL for division-sized and up units. In a considerable theatre you'd need dozens for a sustained campaign.

There aren't enough functioning tanks on the EU continent (not counting the US) to even RESEMBLE an armoured threat.

And then the most simple part: not enough troops. Recent missions in an already poorly manned military europe have left the infantry weak.

Oh and there isn't even doctrine anymore to mount a large campaign... in other words... we don't know how to do it anymore...




Then on the note why we still need a military: international relations and international politics are primarily dominated by security issues and resource issues. This was basically the bassi of the EU. the reason the US intervened in both WW1 and WW2 and is the reasons we have peacekeeping missions in the first place.

It is the reason we actually listen to what the Chinese have to say and why a dead-broke Russia is still a player internationally at all. It is the Reason why the EU and NATO tolerate Turkey and Greece and why India and Pakistan aren't bombing the shit out of eachother. The world is dominated by thew presence of country's military and the security threats to each other.



Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3399 on: May 07, 2018, 12:23:14 pm »
Quote
And then the most simple part: not enough troops. Recent missions in an already poorly manned military europe have left the infantry weak.

Did somebody say.....Conscription?

Offline Furrnox

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3400 on: May 07, 2018, 03:23:14 pm »
I think a combined EU military would be better at allocating resources then 27 independant ones.

So I don't think spending or manpower would be an issue I think the most major issue would be culture, langauge and obviously all the issues with merging militaries (like different systems etc).

Offline Olafson

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3401 on: May 07, 2018, 03:24:52 pm »
Might be wrong, but it's still the case that the Bundeswehr probably couldn't fight a modern war in its current state.

Yeah, that is probably true.

The entire NATO force in Europe has maybe 3 AWACS planes VITAL for division-sized and up units. In a considerable theatre you'd need dozens for a sustained campaign.

I see one of those things flying over our town all the time, I always thought that there are dozens of them around. Apparently it just stationed somewhere near here then... Very nice.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3402 on: May 07, 2018, 03:40:09 pm »


Yeah, that is probably true.
It is most definitely true.


I think a combined EU military would be better at allocating resources then 27 independant ones.

So I don't think spending or manpower would be an issue I think the most major issue would be culture, langauge and obviously all the issues with merging militaries (like different systems etc).


Underlined: Better, but most definitely not good enough.

Raising enough manpower would take way too much time.... You also need an adequate amount of weapons and equipment to field those troops. Not to mention training capacity and housing. More fighting troops also means more logistics to sustain an operation lasting longer than 24 hours in its totality. More logistics means more transport, trucks, planes and ships... You cannot just enlarge the fighting power of a nation by adding more men
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3403 on: May 07, 2018, 03:41:10 pm »
I suppose it would have to be a gradual process over many years. Maybe starting with just greater co-operation

Offline McPero

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #3404 on: May 07, 2018, 03:44:37 pm »
Better, but most definitely not good enough.
Mot good enough for what?