Author Topic: Philosophy Thread  (Read 6445 times)

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Offline joer5835

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2014, 05:22:25 pm »
Aye, it's based on the ideal of everyone having the opportunity to choose, which is not always the case.
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Offline Allasaphore

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2014, 05:29:24 pm »
We've all been discussing a free will and determinism, but we need to come to an agreement on one thing. What is free will, is it derived from a thing, and if free will is derived/caused (ie does not exist on its own) then what is it derived from? Follow this up by discussing the existence/nonexistence of free will in terms of logical possibility and logical impossibility, so that we might find an absolute.

Offline Blobmania

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2014, 06:52:27 pm »
Your interpretation of free will does of course dictate whether or not you can believe in Determinism.

Personally I believe that free will exists insofar as that we are physically able to do anything we want, however what we "want" to do (i.e. the decisions we make) is predetermined. In answer to the replies:

Spoiler
This is reasonable, though I am skeptical of the claim that it is only possible for an individual to make one decision in any situation. If free will exists at all, then determinism must be absolutely false. If determinism is true, then free will is false. However, can all possible choices be known to us, or can we only know our selected choice/determined action?

Allow me to provide an example. Say that I am exploring a cave, and the cave should come to a fork of 78 prongs. These 78 forks have the exact same physical conditions, from light distribution to temperature. Am I determined to select a specific route based on determinism? If so, why?

We can discuss determinism in the wake of solipsism once we've negotiated this crevice.
[close]

In response to your "78-prong" example, regardless of the conditions you are in you will still make a decision in the end - you won't just stand there, unable to move for lack of any perceived differences in the options. In that particular situation the path you "choose" will be the one that most suits your inherent personality, therefore still supporting my theory that we make our decisions based on predetermined logic paths in the brain.

For example, as a general rule people will always go for a more moderate route in the absence of other deciding factors, meaning that you might choose a more central path - this is particularly relevant when making a snap decision. Conversely, you may think about it logically and decide to choose the leftmost or rightmost path, depending on your personal preference, meaning that if you need to retrace your steps later on you'll be less likely to lose your way.

Regardless of the choice you make, it'll still be the result of your internal processing.

Spoiler
Personally, I'm a great supporter of free will. In my opinion, no decision is right or wrong, as long as you fully support your own decision AND don't hurt other people with it.

For example, in later life you have to choose what you want to do. You have the option of becoming an artist or a high-rewarding job as a manager. Neither of these choices are wrong, as you should do what you want to do. Of course there are always people that tell you your choose is actually based on what you can do better. IMO, that is partially wrong.

For instance, I'm good with biology and chemistry. I could easily choose to do something in later life with these two, as right now in the Netherlands, there is a shortage of people with this knowledge. So, why did I choose to pursue History? Because I wanted to.

This is all of course my view on life, if you disagree, you are perfectly allowed to disagree. It's a free world.....or at least it should be.
[close]

Similarly to my other response, this doesn't actually disprove the idea of determinism. Whatever decision you actually make will still be the result of your internal reasoning based upon your previous experiences and how they have affected your personality.



Every decision everyone makes is the "best" decision they can make at the time, based upon the knowledge they have available to them as processed by their brain. Regardless of the decision made it's still the result of our inherent determinism, as whatever our "best" decision is at the time we will still have come to that conclusion through our brain's processing of our surroundings.

The theory doesn't necessarily negate free will, all it requires it a slight re-interpretation of what we perceive free will to be. If free will is interpreted as the ability to come to any number of conclusions based upon our personality (i.e. our internal logic paths) without limits to the possible results, then free will and inherent determinism can still coexist.

One way to look at it is to see the theory as an explanation of how we make the decisions that we make. The only way to disprove the presence of this inherent determinism in our decision-making processes is to prove the existence of a person's "soul" - that is, some overarching decision & personality structure that influences our decisions independently of our physical brain. Without that external influence to our decisions, we are simply machines.
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Offline Blobmania

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2014, 06:56:52 pm »
In addition - The only way to prove or disprove this theory would be through the use of multiple realities in a controlled experiment. You would need to place a subject in two or more physically and mentally identical situations at exactly the same time, and see which path they take. If they take the same path in every reality then inherent determinism exists. If they take a different path in different realities (despite the identical conditions) then their decision-making processes are being influenced by another unknown force, either a "soul" (for lack of a better word) or an as-yet undiscovered truly random decision element of the brain - something that as far as we know isn't a physical possibility in organic life.
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If a cat sits in a box in the woods and no-one is around to hear it, is it alive?

Offline Allasaphore

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2014, 07:56:08 pm »
Spoiler
Your interpretation of free will does of course dictate whether or not you can believe in Determinism.

Personally I believe that free will exists insofar as that we are physically able to do anything we want, however what we "want" to do (i.e. the decisions we make) is predetermined. In answer to the replies:

Spoiler
This is reasonable, though I am skeptical of the claim that it is only possible for an individual to make one decision in any situation. If free will exists at all, then determinism must be absolutely false. If determinism is true, then free will is false. However, can all possible choices be known to us, or can we only know our selected choice/determined action?

Allow me to provide an example. Say that I am exploring a cave, and the cave should come to a fork of 78 prongs. These 78 forks have the exact same physical conditions, from light distribution to temperature. Am I determined to select a specific route based on determinism? If so, why?

We can discuss determinism in the wake of solipsism once we've negotiated this crevice.
[close]

In response to your "78-prong" example, regardless of the conditions you are in you will still make a decision in the end - you won't just stand there, unable to move for lack of any perceived differences in the options. In that particular situation the path you "choose" will be the one that most suits your inherent personality, therefore still supporting my theory that we make our decisions based on predetermined logic paths in the brain.

For example, as a general rule people will always go for a more moderate route in the absence of other deciding factors, meaning that you might choose a more central path - this is particularly relevant when making a snap decision. Conversely, you may think about it logically and decide to choose the leftmost or rightmost path, depending on your personal preference, meaning that if you need to retrace your steps later on you'll be less likely to lose your way.

Regardless of the choice you make, it'll still be the result of your internal processing.



Every decision everyone makes is the "best" decision they can make at the time, based upon the knowledge they have available to them as processed by their brain. Regardless of the decision made it's still the result of our inherent determinism, as whatever our "best" decision is at the time we will still have come to that conclusion through our brain's processing of our surroundings.

The theory doesn't necessarily negate free will, all it requires it a slight re-interpretation of what we perceive free will to be. If free will is interpreted as the ability to come to any number of conclusions based upon our personality (i.e. our internal logic paths) without limits to the possible results, then free will and inherent determinism can still coexist.

One way to look at it is to see the theory as an explanation of how we make the decisions that we make. The only way to disprove the presence of this inherent determinism in our decision-making processes is to prove the existence of a person's "soul" - that is, some overarching decision & personality structure that influences our decisions independently of our physical brain. Without that external influence to our decisions, we are simply machines.
[close]

While I understand where you're coming from, I think you might be confusing physical ability (what is possible) with guided actuality (possibility becoming actuality through some medium, either a predetermined event or some form of free will). What should make a man more prone to picking any single one of the 78 prongs than any of the others, particularly when all 78 prongs entertain similar conditions? Could you illustrate the effects of determinism in this scenario?

To disprove determinism does not require the proof of a human "soul" or even the proof of an immaterial mind. Any argument against determinism needs to entertain possibility and actuality as two distinct categories, and must ascertain if an individual should always choose the same possibility in the exact same situation an infinite number of times or not.

In addition - The only way to prove or disprove this theory would be through the use of multiple realities in a controlled experiment. You would need to place a subject in two or more physically and mentally identical situations at exactly the same time, and see which path they take. If they take the same path in every reality then inherent determinism exists. If they take a different path in different realities (despite the identical conditions) then their decision-making processes are being influenced by another unknown force, either a "soul" (for lack of a better word) or an as-yet undiscovered truly random decision element of the brain - something that as far as we know isn't a physical possibility in organic life.

This statement deserves some warning, namely because two individuals coming to the same conclusion when both individuals are exact mental representations of the other does not necessarily prove that determinism exists. A proof of determinism would require that an infinite number of tests be performed (or at the very least, an extremely large number) and that every test yield the exact same results. Speaking mathematically, I am able to prove that the limit of a multi-variable function approaches 2x (or 2y, the same limit) through two separate paths, where x=y and y=x (assume form x+y=0). This does not prove that the limit of the function is 2x though, as observing the limit through path y=0 causes the limit to equal x, meaning that a limit actually does not exist because the same conclusion is not reached an infinite number of times for the same function.

(Let me know if the math is confusing, I may have blundered in the explanation)

My qualm with determinism is that it flies in the face of empirical evidence, namely that in my mind it seems that I make choices. I decide what it is I want to think about and can change that at what seems to be my own will.



On a slightly related note, what reason do you (or anyone, for that matter) have to believe that there exists a world external to your own mind? Is a world external to your or my mind indubitable?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 07:59:56 pm by Allasaphore »

Offline Archduke Sven

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2014, 09:27:17 pm »
this isn't history

gtfo the board beggars


told that bih don't @ me

Offline Blobmania

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2014, 12:02:08 am »
I'm not arguing that we don't make choices, only that those choices we do make are the result of fluid logic paths within our mind - in simple terms, the trail of thought that leads to the choice we make. My argument is that our thoughts follow that particular route (and we make those decisions we take) because of the ever-changing structure of our brains, and therefore to some extent we can be described as deterministic. When we make a conscious decision to change the topic of our thoughts we only do so as a result of every other thought processed up to that point.

A way I once had it explained to me is to imagine our minds as a code, with each subsequent number being the result of every independent value before it -

For instance, as a baby (for simplicity's sake) we start off with <1 5 61 9>. The very next piece of stimulus to be processed through our brain is processed through <1 5 61 9>, and adds another value, let's say 7, leaving us with <1 5 61 9 7>. The next stimulus is processed through <1 5 61 9 7> and adds a value of its own, an so on and so forth, gradually increasing in complexity.

What I'm basically getting at is that while we make decisions, those decisions are made based upon who we inherently are as a person - and we can't make a decision that conflicts with that personality when there is another more agreeable solution available. Therefore yes, we make decisions, however given that those decisions are the result of this internal processing we really couldn't decide any other way.
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If a cat sits in a box in the woods and no-one is around to hear it, is it alive?

Offline Allasaphore

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2014, 07:10:30 am »
Spoiler
I'm not arguing that we don't make choices, only that those choices we do make are the result of fluid logic paths within our mind - in simple terms, the trail of thought that leads to the choice we make. My argument is that our thoughts follow that particular route (and we make those decisions we take) because of the ever-changing structure of our brains, and therefore to some extent we can be described as deterministic. When we make a conscious decision to change the topic of our thoughts we only do so as a result of every other thought processed up to that point.

A way I once had it explained to me is to imagine our minds as a code, with each subsequent number being the result of every independent value before it -

For instance, as a baby (for simplicity's sake) we start off with <1 5 61 9>. The very next piece of stimulus to be processed through our brain is processed through <1 5 61 9>, and adds another value, let's say 7, leaving us with <1 5 61 9 7>. The next stimulus is processed through <1 5 61 9 7> and adds a value of its own, an so on and so forth, gradually increasing in complexity.

What I'm basically getting at is that while we make decisions, those decisions are made based upon who we inherently are as a person - and we can't make a decision that conflicts with that personality when there is another more agreeable solution available. Therefore yes, we make decisions, however given that those decisions are the result of this internal processing we really couldn't decide any other way.
[close]

This seems like an interesting explanation, though I would like to see the argumentation that leads one to a deterministic viewpoint as a potentially legitimate model of the human mind.

On another note, you seem to be describing a prominent issue in philosophy, namely that the method of logic can ultimately decide what kind of conclusion you will reach through that argument. This is not determinism, but another issue entirely. Determinism itself states that everything and caused and must be the way it is, that the present state of existence is always necessary based on past states.

In the spoiler is a link from Stanford University, underlining the validity of an argument for deterministic incompatibilism, wherein a deterministic world precludes the existence of a free will.


Offline Bronn of the Blackwater

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2014, 06:48:48 pm »
My top match is Ayn Rand, according to Nipplestocking's philosophy quiz.

My personal philosophy would be a mix of Ayn Rand's Libertarianism (ex : •We should all act with our own interests as the ultimate goal of our actions. •We have free will. •Moral standards are objective, and can be known rationally. ) with some of Nietzsche's views such as :
•The interests of others should not restrain us
•Masculinity, strength and passion are the highest qualities in a person
•Conventional morality is a crutch to man

That would pretty much define my reasoning.

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2014, 06:50:13 pm »
Hahaha. Oh god what a pleb. Ayn rand is maximum peasant tier.

Offline Bronn of the Blackwater

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2014, 06:51:15 pm »
Hahaha. Oh god what a pleb. Ayn rand is maximum peasant tier.

What do you mean? explain yourself.

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2014, 07:09:40 pm »
Aside from the fact that I disagree entirely with libertarianism as an ideology and philosophy, I think that Ayn Rand style self-styled libertarians are just about the worst people ever. Not that I hold any specific grudges against individual libertarians, but it's just that 90% of the ones I've met have been insufferable cunts who don't know ass about what they're talking about, and only follow the ideology to try to appear intelligently unique and to shitpost on reddit about how cool they are.

Offline Archduke Sven

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Re: Philosophy Thread
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2014, 07:41:49 pm »
this isn't history

gtfo the board beggars


told that bih don't @ me