Poll

What do you think should happen if cav jump onto an infantry who is crouching and bracing their bayonet directly at the horse

The horse should die as it has made contact with the bayonette ( This does not happen in game )
57 (76%)
The horse should live either clear the infantry or knock over the infantry(This already happens in game)
18 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 72

Author Topic: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?  (Read 13937 times)

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Offline Coconut

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Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« on: July 07, 2014, 07:27:09 pm »
Forming a square to fend off against cav is epic but it doesn't work in NW. Cav can just jump into the square and completely break it which I think is kinda exploiting this. It takes a lot of work to form a square and regiments need good discipline to form them quick and it aggravates me that cav can just have their horse jump into it and nullify most of the defensiveness of the square.

Here is a link to cav abusing this tactic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kc3lOdO5Cw#t=2m50s

*skip to 2 mins 50 seconds to see it faster*


Like if you look at this video I don't see any horses jumping into the squares lol


This jumping into squares would never happen in real life. Is it possible to have this changed so cav cannot do this by updating the game or changing some code? or do event leaders have to ban this from events to prevent cav from abusing this 'tactic'

TL;DR, Cavalry can jump into someone bracing their bayonet and jump over the bayonet to knock them over. Feels like an exploit to me, and is annoying when cav leaders who know this do it on purpose to infantry making anti cav formations like in the 1st video.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 07:40:31 pm by Coconut »

Offline Ody

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2014, 08:25:00 pm »
Do you understand that a mere infantry man bayoneting one cavalry will most probably lose his arm and life? So with that said, whenever cavalry run someone over, it should be an instant death and whenever a horseman falls over, almost instant death. That'll make the game more realistic sure, but will destroy the aspect of the game making everything balanced. Now, with that said, the Moskvoskii Grenaders, have their own "anti cavalry square" we call it the circle. We form up standing spaced out creating a circle with the upward attack bayonets fixed looking outward and inside the circle is the flag man and a few CO's ,NCO's. We've used this tactic three times, (It was a new thing we invented) and to surprising effect it works. I can provide screenshots at a later time to show you what I mean. I don't have any currently

Offline Walko

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2014, 08:36:12 pm »
What? I don't know what you are trying to say Ody, but a horse would not charge headlong into a braces bayonet, especially if there are lots of braces bayonets. Needless to say, a horse would be even less likely to JUMP into a wall a bayonets.

With that said I agree completely coconut.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 08:40:05 pm by Walko »
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Offline Ody

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2014, 08:43:28 pm »
What? I don't know what you are trying to say Ody, but a horse would not charge headlong into a braces bayonet, especially if there are lots of braces bayonets. Needless to say, a horse would be even less likely to JUMP into a wall a bayonets.
Yes true, but in the occurrence where that happened, the man killing the horse usually dies. Think of it this way, a rider or horse dumb enough to go straight through a bayonet is one thing, but afterwards, when rider or hose or both, start flying like a projectile it kills the guy on the other end.

Offline Walko

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2014, 08:49:11 pm »
In the scenario where a horse runs headlong into someone, of course that guy isn't going to have a good day, but like I said, a horse isn't going to be willing to run into that like they do in NW. On top of that, for gameplay purposes it would be very nice to give fortified infantry an extra bonus against Cav.
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Offline Ody

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2014, 08:50:39 pm »
In the scenario where a horse runs headlong into someone, of course that guy isn't going to have a good day, but like I said, a horse isn't going to be willing to run into that like they do in NW. On top of that, for gameplay purposes it would be very nice to give fortified infantry an extra bonus against Cav.
cav is easy to take down on its own

Offline Walko

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2014, 08:53:58 pm »
You've obviously never played against decent Cav.
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Offline Ody

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 08:58:03 pm »
You've obviously never played against decent Cav.
I have...plenty of times

Offline KingOscar

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2014, 10:09:31 pm »
You've obviously never played against decent Cav.

In the IXe Corps we have the privilege to train with some of the best cav in North America on a regular basis (the 1erPLG). I can assure you, as others who have posted in this thread have stated, that there are anti cavalry formations that are incredibly effective, well balanced, and fun within the current game mechanics.

These formations don't look like the infantry squares formations that are accurate for the time and don't involve crouching but do lead to a fair fight between cavalry and infantry.

It should be hard for a lone line of infantry to defend itself from the cavalry on a map, but with proper training and tactics it is already possible. I honestly don't see why a change is necessary and also find it highly unlikely that a change would be made anyway.

Offline KingOscar

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2014, 10:20:59 pm »
Watching Coconut's video, I can see several areas for improvement in tactics.
  • The line fired too early - you only have time for one shot before the cav hits. Wait until they are just close enough that you have time to fire and switch to melee. This will make the initial volley much more effective. Also aim for the horses. They are an easier target to hit and dismounted cav is practically as good as a kill.
  • The formation has to0 much space inside the square - forming a circle approximately two men deep with very little open space in the middle eliminates the ability of cav to jump into the circle and still be able to maneuver. Anti-cav formations need to be about every covering the backs of everyone else.
  • No one should be crouching. Being able to move to dodge a horse or lance or to return a stab is very important. The braced musket from crouch is too short to be useful and very limited as moving even slightly breaks the brace.
  • What is most vital is to always be able to maneuver but at the same time keep the formation as tight as possible. Good cav rarekt attacks an infantry man that sees them and is ready to block or stab, they instead maneuver and circle until they have a target that is unaware they are there. Good anti-cav formations try to minimize the number of soldiers whose blind spots are exposed to horses.

Offline Walko

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2014, 10:47:11 pm »
You've obviously never played against decent Cav.

In the IXe Corps we have the privilege to train with some of the best cav in North America on a regular basis (the 1erPLG). I can assure you, as others who have posted in this thread have stated, that there are anti cavalry formations that are incredibly effective, well balanced, and fun within the current game mechanics.

These formations don't look like the infantry squares formations that are accurate for the time and don't involve crouching but do lead to a fair fight between cavalry and infantry.

It should be hard for a lone line of infantry to defend itself from the cavalry on a map, but with proper training and tactics it is already possible. I honestly don't see why a change is necessary and also find it highly unlikely that a change would be made anyway.

Oh and what formation would that be?
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Offline KingOscar

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2014, 11:06:41 pm »
I outlined a lot of the important factors in my prior numbered post. But it is basically a relatively tightly packed cavalry circle several men deep with very little space in the center.

Generally when marching or firing when it appears cav is going to attack our line. Everyone condenses down into a tight circle.

The men are allowed to fire at will but told to reserve enough time to get into melee and to aim for the horses.

After the initial shock has been successfully repulsed (and it usually is with only a few casualties), commonly the cav will start to circle around the line waiting for infantry to leave the formation to be easily picked off.

If under no artillery or nearby infantry threat, we maintain the tight circle and the inner ranks FOL while the outer ranks remain in melee fending off the horses.

If under artillery or nearby infantry threat we do something akin to a "spartan shield bash" where the line pushes out in all directions hoping to catch a horse unaware and then quickly recover back into the tight formation.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 11:08:22 pm by KingOscar »

Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 12:07:01 am »
I will go ahead and add that if you are in a situation where it is just your line vs a cav regiment, you are already in a bad spot, and more or less deserve to die.  Cav will eat up any unsupported lines.  A square was not a guaranteed guard against cav and nor should it ever be imo.  Line infantry at all times should be in an area where they are supported by other lines, skirms, or even arty. 

I have seen too many times in my time of attending LBs where a regiment goes off to no mans land all by itself unsupported and get mobbed by cavalry.  They then in turn blame the game for it being OP.  If they used proper tactics and teamwork they would of never been in that situation.
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Offline Peppers

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 12:15:13 am »
Perhaps they should improve it so we have more of a challenge
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 03:31:40 am by Peppers »

Offline Peppers

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 12:18:25 am »

I have seen too many times in my time of attending LBs where a regiment goes off to no mans land all by itself unsupported and get mobbed by cavalry.  They then in turn blame the game for it being OP.  If they used proper tactics and teamwork they would of never been in that situation.

But if something kills me William I must say it's OP.