Author Topic: WPC Teams and trades  (Read 72229 times)

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Offline JollyCanadian

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #511 on: September 19, 2018, 04:37:14 pm »
The Atomic Masters situation.

I'm looking for unbiased opinions (not from Masters or Atomic members) on the situation, I'll try to explain it clearly.

The following spoiler is a screenshot of my chatlog with Jorge, I was given permission to post it and can pm a ss of him giving permission to anyone that doubts me.
Spoiler
[close]

In the logs we schedule the match after I state that I will cancel the match if something doesn't work out. Jorge responds "Alright" making me think that he is acknowledging what I have said and is okay with it. Apparently I wasn't clear because Jorge claims that's not what he meant but doesn't say I can't cancel it. Numerous times other teams have canceled on Atomic with Jorges consent so I figured it was no big deal seeing as we still had 5 days until the deadline. Where I was wrong I guess is that a new rule was added saying that you cannot cancel a scheduled match unless both teams agree, though we were not alerted of this and it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the rules.

So, in the end Atomic was forced into a forfeit which I find extremely unfair, of course I am biased towards my team though. Looking for other opinions on the matter as I hope maybe this can be changed since it really puts Atomic in a tough spot and the deadline isn't for another few days yet.

Not trying to start shit, just looking for input, I'll answer any questions to the best of my ability.

Due to there obviously being confusion about being able to cancel matches or not and jorge not explicitly saying matches cannot be cancelled I personally would void the forfeit and have the match by this weekend due to the deadline not yet being reached.

Problem with this league is there's so many rules and shit unknown that by the time anyone knows them it's too late.

I also agree with this statement.  Although I haven't paied much attention to the league I've still heard stories of rules not being explained properly or of biased decision.  It is the responsiblity for each player to understand the rules but this league does have issues with rules.
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Offline Rifleman Nicholas

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #512 on: September 19, 2018, 05:05:38 pm »
The Atomic Masters situation.

I'm looking for unbiased opinions (not from Masters or Atomic members) on the situation, I'll try to explain it clearly.

The following spoiler is a screenshot of my chatlog with Jorge, I was given permission to post it and can pm a ss of him giving permission to anyone that doubts me.
Spoiler
[close]

In the logs we schedule the match after I state that I will cancel the match if something doesn't work out. Jorge responds "Alright" making me think that he is acknowledging what I have said and is okay with it. Apparently I wasn't clear because Jorge claims that's not what he meant but doesn't say I can't cancel it. Numerous times other teams have canceled on Atomic with Jorges consent so I figured it was no big deal seeing as we still had 5 days until the deadline. Where I was wrong I guess is that a new rule was added saying that you cannot cancel a scheduled match unless both teams agree, though we were not alerted of this and it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the rules.

So, in the end Atomic was forced into a forfeit which I find extremely unfair, of course I am biased towards my team though. Looking for other opinions on the matter as I hope maybe this can be changed since it really puts Atomic in a tough spot and the deadline isn't for another few days yet.

Not trying to start shit, just looking for input, I'll answer any questions to the best of my ability.

My thoughts are that if the rule prior to this was only rule #9
9. If your team can not manage to bring 5 members to a match then you may play with 4 but not any less then 4. A team with less then 4 players will be forced to forfeit if they can not field a 4th for 5th player 5 minutes after the scheduled match start time.

In no way in that rule does it state if there is fair notice that one cannot cancel a match.  Nor is it even implied.  The absolute most that can be implied from this rule is that if a team misses their scheduled match time without notice they be forced to forfeit. 

While it is the player's job to know and adhere to the rules of a tournament, if a rule is added during the tournament it is the job of the staff to alert the competitors.  If that did not happen, the forfeit should be cancelled out.

Also, on another note, not being allowed to cancel matches if you give advance notice is absolutely bonkers, especially if the only thing preventing it from being a forfeit is the other teams decision.  No team is not going to force their opponents into a forfeit, it's all to their gain.  You are putting powers that should belong solely to the administration in the arms of the players.

Lastly, if you did not cancel until very shortly before the match only in that case do I believe a forfeit may be in order.  There should be an added point in the rules for how far in advance you can cancel a match before it would be considered forfeiting, but seeing as there currently isn't... I think the forfeit should be cancelled out and some rules rewritten.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 05:37:34 pm by Rifleman Nicholas »
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Offline DrunkenSpartan

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #513 on: September 19, 2018, 05:09:33 pm »
The Atomic Masters situation.

I'm looking for unbiased opinions (not from Masters or Atomic members) on the situation, I'll try to explain it clearly.

The following spoiler is a screenshot of my chatlog with Jorge, I was given permission to post it and can pm a ss of him giving permission to anyone that doubts me.
Spoiler
[close]

In the logs we schedule the match after I state that I will cancel the match if something doesn't work out. Jorge responds "Alright" making me think that he is acknowledging what I have said and is okay with it. Apparently I wasn't clear because Jorge claims that's not what he meant but doesn't say I can't cancel it. Numerous times other teams have canceled on Atomic with Jorges consent so I figured it was no big deal seeing as we still had 5 days until the deadline. Where I was wrong I guess is that a new rule was added saying that you cannot cancel a scheduled match unless both teams agree, though we were not alerted of this and it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the rules.

So, in the end Atomic was forced into a forfeit which I find extremely unfair, of course I am biased towards my team though. Looking for other opinions on the matter as I hope maybe this can be changed since it really puts Atomic in a tough spot and the deadline isn't for another few days yet.

Not trying to start shit, just looking for input, I'll answer any questions to the best of my ability.

Due to there obviously being confusion about being able to cancel matches or not and jorge not explicitly saying matches cannot be cancelled I personally would void the forfeit and have the match by this weekend due to the deadline not yet being reached.

Problem with this league is there's so many rules and shit unknown that by the time anyone knows them it's too late.

I also agree with this statement.  Although I haven't paied much attention to the league I've still heard stories of rules not being explained properly or of biased decision.  It is the responsiblity for each player to understand the rules but this league does have issues with rules.

Because of the misunderstanding on both sides I would also have asked each team to consider rescheduling the match. But it’s not my tournament. I think there are valid points and fault on both sides. In my opinion, Jorge shouldn’t have really brought up a forfeit until he had exhausted all other options.

By that same standard, however, I feel that Russian and Wastee shouldn’t have mentioned dropping out of the league at all until a forfeit was officially listed  on the record. Until that point there was room for talk and working things out through negotiation. Now I feel that it’s kind of set and done. Oh well. Back to RuneScape I go!
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Offline JollyCanadian

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #514 on: September 19, 2018, 05:09:41 pm »
The Atomic Masters situation.

I'm looking for unbiased opinions (not from Masters or Atomic members) on the situation, I'll try to explain it clearly.

The following spoiler is a screenshot of my chatlog with Jorge, I was given permission to post it and can pm a ss of him giving permission to anyone that doubts me.
Spoiler
[close]

In the logs we schedule the match after I state that I will cancel the match if something doesn't work out. Jorge responds "Alright" making me think that he is acknowledging what I have said and is okay with it. Apparently I wasn't clear because Jorge claims that's not what he meant but doesn't say I can't cancel it. Numerous times other teams have canceled on Atomic with Jorges consent so I figured it was no big deal seeing as we still had 5 days until the deadline. Where I was wrong I guess is that a new rule was added saying that you cannot cancel a scheduled match unless both teams agree, though we were not alerted of this and it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the rules.

So, in the end Atomic was forced into a forfeit which I find extremely unfair, of course I am biased towards my team though. Looking for other opinions on the matter as I hope maybe this can be changed since it really puts Atomic in a tough spot and the deadline isn't for another few days yet.

Not trying to start shit, just looking for input, I'll answer any questions to the best of my ability.

My thoughts are that if the rule prior to this was only rule #9
9. If your team can not manage to bring 5 members to a match then you may play with 4 but not any less then 4. A team with less then 4 players will be forced to forfeit if they can not field a 4th for 5th player 5 minutes after the scheduled match start time.

In no way in that rule does it imply if there is fair notice that one cannot cancel a match.  Nor is it even implied.  The absolute most that can be implied from this rule is that if a team misses their scheduled match time without notice they be forced to forfeit. 

While it is the player's job to know and adhere to the rules of a tournament, if a rule is added during the tournament it is the job of the staff to alert the competitors.  If that did not happen, the forfeit should be cancelled out.

Also, on another note, not being allowed to cancel matches if you give advance notice is absolutely bonkers, especially if the only thing preventing it from being a forfeit is the other teams decision.  No team is not going to force their opponents into a forfeit, it's all to their gain.  You are putting powers that should belong solely to the administration in the arms of the players.
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Offline Moraine

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #515 on: September 19, 2018, 05:37:21 pm »
The Atomic Masters situation.

I'm looking for unbiased opinions (not from Masters or Atomic members) on the situation, I'll try to explain it clearly.

The following spoiler is a screenshot of my chatlog with Jorge, I was given permission to post it and can pm a ss of him giving permission to anyone that doubts me.
Spoiler
[close]

In the logs we schedule the match after I state that I will cancel the match if something doesn't work out. Jorge responds "Alright" making me think that he is acknowledging what I have said and is okay with it. Apparently I wasn't clear because Jorge claims that's not what he meant but doesn't say I can't cancel it. Numerous times other teams have canceled on Atomic with Jorges consent so I figured it was no big deal seeing as we still had 5 days until the deadline. Where I was wrong I guess is that a new rule was added saying that you cannot cancel a scheduled match unless both teams agree, though we were not alerted of this and it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the rules.

So, in the end Atomic was forced into a forfeit which I find extremely unfair, of course I am biased towards my team though. Looking for other opinions on the matter as I hope maybe this can be changed since it really puts Atomic in a tough spot and the deadline isn't for another few days yet.

Not trying to start shit, just looking for input, I'll answer any questions to the best of my ability.

Due to there obviously being confusion about being able to cancel matches or not and jorge not explicitly saying matches cannot be cancelled I personally would void the forfeit and have the match by this weekend due to the deadline not yet being reached.

Problem with this league is there's so many rules and shit unknown that by the time anyone knows them it's too late.

I also agree with this statement.  Although I haven't paied much attention to the league I've still heard stories of rules not being explained properly or of biased decision.  It is the responsiblity for each player to understand the rules but this league does have issues with rules.

Because of the misunderstanding on both sides I would also have asked each team to consider rescheduling the match. But it’s not my tournament. I think there are valid points and fault on both sides. In my opinion, Jorge shouldn’t have really brought up a forfeit until he had exhausted all other options.

By that same standard, however, I feel that Russian and Wastee shouldn’t have mentioned dropping out of the league at all until a forfeit was officially listed  on the record. Until that point there was room for talk and working things out through negotiation. Now I feel that it’s kind of set and done. Oh well. Back to RuneScape I go!



Offline Fartknocker

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #516 on: September 19, 2018, 05:46:05 pm »
The Atomic Masters situation.

I'm looking for unbiased opinions (not from Masters or Atomic members) on the situation, I'll try to explain it clearly.

The following spoiler is a screenshot of my chatlog with Jorge, I was given permission to post it and can pm a ss of him giving permission to anyone that doubts me.
Spoiler
[close]

In the logs we schedule the match after I state that I will cancel the match if something doesn't work out. Jorge responds "Alright" making me think that he is acknowledging what I have said and is okay with it. Apparently I wasn't clear because Jorge claims that's not what he meant but doesn't say I can't cancel it. Numerous times other teams have canceled on Atomic with Jorges consent so I figured it was no big deal seeing as we still had 5 days until the deadline. Where I was wrong I guess is that a new rule was added saying that you cannot cancel a scheduled match unless both teams agree, though we were not alerted of this and it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the rules.

So, in the end Atomic was forced into a forfeit which I find extremely unfair, of course I am biased towards my team though. Looking for other opinions on the matter as I hope maybe this can be changed since it really puts Atomic in a tough spot and the deadline isn't for another few days yet.

Not trying to start shit, just looking for input, I'll answer any questions to the best of my ability.

Atomic got screwed. I already messaged Jorge my thoughts. Hopefully something changes but I doubt it especially because Jorge runs the league AND the team that benefits from Atomic's loss.
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Offline Sleek

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #517 on: September 19, 2018, 06:03:17 pm »
One of the reasons Aftershock is dead is because of the rules being changed mod season without any communication. Rules should be changed, yes, but do it at the end to not fuck over teams all of a sudden. The same situation happened for Aftershock, where one ruleset was in effect for a match regarding forfeit and then a different ruleset for the same type of situation was enforced causing the matches to turn out differently. Adding or changing rules every 2 weeks to try and fix an issue is completely dumb. You don't see that in other esports or sports, it's changed before/after a season starts
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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #518 on: September 19, 2018, 07:11:39 pm »
I have to agree with the sentiments above. The rule set for this league seems at the same time bloated but vague. While it is the player’s responsibility to know he TOS it does not deal with match cancellations, and this rule was added later and retroactively applied. I believe atomic should fight this weekend against masters.

To be honest, this league has reached a dead end - teams such as Wolfpack are just dead, there’s little interest in the game, and these fiascos make it worse. I might not be in a position to advise you Jorge  but I would suggest simply doing the final matches and ending the league instead of dragging this out.
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Offline BabyJesus

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #519 on: September 19, 2018, 08:07:10 pm »
I have to agree with the sentiments above. The rule set for this league seems at the same time bloated but vague. While it is the player’s responsibility to know he TOS it does not deal with match cancellations, and this rule was added later and retroactively applied. I believe atomic should fight this weekend against masters.
this^

 I do think Russian and waste were too hasty to leave the league and did so without exhausting all their options completely
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 08:22:50 pm by BabyJesus »
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Offline Wastee

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #520 on: September 19, 2018, 08:26:22 pm »
I have to agree with the sentiments above. The rule set for this league seems at the same time bloated but vague. While it is the player’s responsibility to know he TOS it does not deal with match cancellations, and this rule was added later and retroactively applied. I believe atomic should fight this weekend against masters.
this^

 I do think Russian and waste were too hasty to leave the league and did so without exhausting al their options completely
We haven't officially left the league yet by the way, he told us we have a day to decide.

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #521 on: September 19, 2018, 08:27:44 pm »
I have to agree with the sentiments above. The rule set for this league seems at the same time bloated but vague. While it is the player’s responsibility to know he TOS it does not deal with match cancellations, and this rule was added later and retroactively applied. I believe atomic should fight this weekend against masters.
this^

 I do think Russian and waste were too hasty to leave the league and did so without exhausting al their options completely
We haven't officially left the league yet by the way, he told us we have a day to decide.
*threatened to leave the league without exhausting other options
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Offline Wastee

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #522 on: September 19, 2018, 08:28:26 pm »
I have to agree with the sentiments above. The rule set for this league seems at the same time bloated but vague. While it is the player’s responsibility to know he TOS it does not deal with match cancellations, and this rule was added later and retroactively applied. I believe atomic should fight this weekend against masters.
this^

 I do think Russian and waste were too hasty to leave the league and did so without exhausting al their options completely
We haven't officially left the league yet by the way, he told us we have a day to decide.
*threatened to leave the league without exhausting other options
I am curious what those other options may have been

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #523 on: September 19, 2018, 08:31:30 pm »
I have to agree with the sentiments above. The rule set for this league seems at the same time bloated but vague. While it is the player’s responsibility to know he TOS it does not deal with match cancellations, and this rule was added later and retroactively applied. I believe atomic should fight this weekend against masters.
this^

 I do think Russian and waste were too hasty to leave the league and did so without exhausting al their options completely
We haven't officially left the league yet by the way, he told us we have a day to decide.
*threatened to leave the league without exhausting other options
I am curious what those other options may have been
getting opinions of other players(what your doing now) is one. And I don’t think you guys sat in a ts with Jorge and talked about it
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Offline Wastee

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Re: WPC Teams and trades
« Reply #524 on: September 19, 2018, 08:35:38 pm »
I have to agree with the sentiments above. The rule set for this league seems at the same time bloated but vague. While it is the player’s responsibility to know he TOS it does not deal with match cancellations, and this rule was added later and retroactively applied. I believe atomic should fight this weekend against masters.
this^

 I do think Russian and waste were too hasty to leave the league and did so without exhausting al their options completely
We haven't officially left the league yet by the way, he told us we have a day to decide.
*threatened to leave the league without exhausting other options
I am curious what those other options may have been
getting opinions of other players(what your doing now) is one. And I don’t think you guys sat in a ts with Jorge and talked about it
We talked with Jorge about it in a team speak for about an hour, I agree we should have gotten the opinions of other players though. I tried with some people who were on but most of them didn't want to get involved.

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