Author Topic: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War  (Read 14325 times)

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Offline Duuring

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2013, 11:24:20 pm »
Hitler did have planes to take over the world, defeating the USA, Japanese and subduing the Italians, and the transform Berlin into the worldcapital.

Offline Raddeo

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2013, 11:43:58 pm »
Hitler wasn't going to take over the rest of Europe, that's ridiculous. What Switzerland and Sweden did is the correct thing, no one wants to intervene in a foreign war. If the allies didn't intervened in the invasion of Poland then there wouldn't be a second world war since Hitler's territorial claims had finished.
You all should stop watching movies like 'Saving Private Ryan', they distort the reality.

Well... are you claiming, that world should have allowed Hitler to conquer Eastern Europe? Because "no one wants to intervene in a foreign war"? I don't know where you are from, but I hope, that when your country will be attacked (and you can be sure that it will, it's just a matter of time) and your people will be turned into slaves, nobody will help you.

And you are wrong. Hitler wanted to conquer whole Europe. Talking about "Lebensraum" was only kind of excuse. In fact after conquer of Poland nobody attacked Germany. UK and France declared war to Germany but they did almost nothing. Hitler had chance to keep Poland and finish war. But he did not do it. Germany attacked Scandinavia, Germany attacked France, Germany attacked England and also Germany attacked USSR. No country attacked Germany. For whole war Germany was attacking more and more countries. So you can see that they didn't want to conquer only Poland or only Eastern Europe. Being neutral was only a way of allowing Hitler to do what he wanted to do. And keep in mind, that Hilter attacked even his ally (USSR). So why would he let neutral countries stay free?
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Offline König

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2013, 11:48:07 pm »
If the allies didn't intervened in the invasion of Poland then there wouldn't be a second world war since Hitler's territorial claims had finished.
Yes, just like how he said his territorial claims had been satisfied in 1938 with part of Czechoslovakia? France and Britain tried appeasement, and it didn't work. Aside from that, they (France and Britain) both had alliances/defense-pacts with Poland.
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Offline Duuring

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2013, 12:16:29 am »
And then when Poland was attacked, they did nothing.

Same goes for the Netherlands, actually. I read in the memoirs of a naval lieutenant positioned in the Dutch East-Indies, and he describes how they all thought, and pretty much believed, there was a massive column of Anglo-French soldiers heading to save the Netherlands. They took out maps and pointed to each other were they had heard the allies were coming in.
Couldn't be further from the truth, really.

. And keep in mind, that Hilter attacked even his ally (USSR). So why would he let neutral countries stay free?

Hitler and Stalin were NEVER allied. They had an agreement on how to divide Poland and not to go to war to eachother, but they were not allied. Hitler nor Stalin believed the treaty was going to last long, Stalin just expected a few more years.

Germany attacked Scandinavia, Germany attacked France, Germany attacked England

First of all, they only attacked Norway and Denmark, and not Sweden, which is part of Scandinavia. And then, they did not declare war on France and the UK, is was the other way around! They just followed an aggressive strategy. Truly, wouldn't it be better if you mentioned Belgium and the Netherlands? They both did not want war and tried to remain neutral, but were strategical  important. Of course Hitler was also a madman who wanted to conquer everything, but there were other reasons too for invading, not just conquershift (thought that obvious was important as well).
An on 'they attacked all those nations'; Why did they invade Afrika? Because the Italians called them in. Why did they attack Greece? Because the Italians called them in. Silly Italians were trying to re-make the Roman Empire.

The only wars Hitler really wanted were against Poland, France and the USSR. The others he just took when the opportunity arose, or when he had too.

Spoiler
And I'm not even sure why I'm defending Nazi Germany. I suppose I can't stand bad-informed blabbering
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« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 12:29:43 am by Duuring »

Offline von_Bismarck

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2013, 01:07:31 am »
Hitler wasn't going to take over the rest of Europe, that's ridiculous. What Switzerland and Sweden did is the correct thing, no one wants to intervene in a foreign war. If the allies didn't intervened in the invasion of Poland then there wouldn't be a second world war since Hitler's territorial claims had finished.
You all should stop watching movies like 'Saving Private Ryan', they distort the reality.

Well... are you claiming, that world should have allowed Hitler to conquer Eastern Europe? Because "no one wants to intervene in a foreign war"? I don't know where you are from, but I hope, that when your country will be attacked (and you can be sure that it will, it's just a matter of time) and your people will be turned into slaves, nobody will help you.

And you are wrong. Hitler wanted to conquer whole Europe. Talking about "Lebensraum" was only kind of excuse. In fact after conquer of Poland nobody attacked Germany. UK and France declared war to Germany but they did almost nothing. Hitler had chance to keep Poland and finish war. But he did not do it. Germany attacked Scandinavia, Germany attacked France, Germany attacked England and also Germany attacked USSR. No country attacked Germany. For whole war Germany was attacking more and more countries. So you can see that they didn't want to conquer only Poland or only Eastern Europe. Being neutral was only a way of allowing Hitler to do what he wanted to do. And keep in mind, that Hilter attacked even his ally (USSR). So why would he let neutral countries stay free?
They did nothing? Germany was constantly being bombed destroying the industrial cities and killing many civilians, nothing you say.
As duuring stated before, Germany was never allied of the USSR, they signed a non-agression pact not a friendship declaration.

Offline BSM 'Shut up' Williams

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2013, 10:17:40 am »
Spoiler
But Baktech lives in Britain
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I'm surprised no-one's saying anything about your comment, ;).

Wow what did I just start?

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Offline Windbusche

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2013, 10:18:44 am »
You didn't just start it. You started it with first thread about Poland, and they haven't stopped popping up since.

Offline Tali

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2013, 10:37:30 am »
But you do have to admit that Sweden, Switzerland and other neutral countries were essentially just buying time, there was no way that Hitler would have let them stay independent if they would have conquered he rest of Europe.
While Poland did make a stand against them, if every country in Europe had the same mentality of Sweden and Switzerland, we will just give them what they want and hopefully they will leave us alone, what would have happened to the world? Also do you think on a personal level what Switzerland and Sweden did was right?   

Yes, they were buying time. If, and I say again, IF, Barbarossa had been a sucess, Sealion had been done with and the war would have been won, I'm pretty sure Hitler would want at least cooperative regimes in all european countries, ideally nationalists.

However, that's not how things turned out. Now, in retrospect, I see no issues on the neutrality of Sweden/Switzerland. I mean, the war would have been won without the military aid of either of these countries.

As whether or not it is right or not, see it like this. A Swedish/Swiss military intervention before 1940 would have failed miserably, and an attack after 1941 would not have mattered, as the war was lost as soon as Hitler commenced Barbarossa.
It would have caused thousands of deaths while accomplishing next to nothing. So yes, I do believe that staying neutral was the way to go, and I earnestly believe we would have seen alot more neutral european countries during this era if Hitler had not attacked the first. Denmark and Norway, for example, did not want to join the war, the war came to them.

Also, regarding as to why, there were sound, tactical reasons for the invasion of norway ( From the nazi's perspective), Hitler wanted to avoid having his navy trapped in the baltic sea as in WW1, and the Norwegian ports were of huge strategic importance to the Nazi, as they could use them to intercept convoys headed for Murmansk.

Much as I hate to defend the Nazis, and make no misstake, I do not symphatize with their ideology, I remember reading that hitler had no interests in Western Europe, and he had plans of releasing the french under a cooperative government, which is likely what he would have done with the British as well, had he invaded them.

I'm going to post a reply I wrote on another website a few weeks back:
Spoiler
Hitler was a nationalist. His ideas was of a Aryan, or Germanic, race superior to others. When the Germans went to war, a major reason was room to live, or "lebensraum". This would encompass modern day Germany and everything west of the Urals , give or take. Hitler wasn't into World dominance, he wanted to establish a nation for the Germans.

With this in mind, it is rather easy to imagine the alliance and seeing it as natural. Both Japan and Germany were nationalistic, meaning that they shared rather similiar ways on immigration, assimilation and the kind.

This meant that, if things went Hitler's way, the Germans would have a nation in Eurasia, and the Japanese one in Far-east Asia. As both of them have ideas that their own people is superior, immigration and cultural mixing will be minimal, to the benefit of both.
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« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 10:43:28 am by Tali »

Offline Archduke Sven

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2013, 02:39:17 pm »
woah, why are people mad at Sweden for not fighting the Nazis?

What had they ever done to us? Sweden and Germany had always been strong trade partners had a mutual history together.

In comparison Sweden had no strong ties to either Britain or France. Nor did they have a liking of the Russians for multiple reasons. So why would they waste the life of their nation to help 3 nations they couldn't care less about in a war with a nation who they were trading with?

The Soviets were a bigger threat to Sweden then Germany. And Britain and France wouldn't help in a Russo-Swedish war FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS WHY SWEDEN DIDN'T PARTICIPATE IN WW2. Which is, they were trading with Russia, the Russians were on the same side and helping them in the war.

So Sweden stuck closer to the side who would help.

Seriously people, learn to think.

Additionally i think most people here have an EXTREMELY one sided point of view, the one they learned in school.

All you know is that the Nazis are painted out as the big bad boys. In my opinion all major powers who participated in WW2 are equally bad. They all committed horrifying acts during the war.


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Offline Gokiller

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2013, 04:23:20 pm »
woah, why are people mad at Sweden for not fighting the Nazis?

What had they ever done to us? Sweden and Germany had always been strong trade partners had a mutual history together.

In comparison Sweden had no strong ties to either Britain or France. Nor did they have a liking of the Russians for multiple reasons. So why would they waste the life of their nation to help 3 nations they couldn't care less about in a war with a nation who they were trading with?

The Soviets were a bigger threat to Sweden then Germany. And Britain and France wouldn't help in a Russo-Swedish war FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS WHY SWEDEN DIDN'T PARTICIPATE IN WW2. Which is, they were trading with Russia, the Russians were on the same side and helping them in the war.

So Sweden stuck closer to the side who would help.

Seriously people, learn to think.

Additionally i think most people here have an EXTREMELY one sided point of view, the one they learned in school.

All you know is that the Nazis are painted out as the big bad boys. In my opinion all major powers who participated in WW2 are equally bad. They all committed horrifying acts during the war.

No one is mad at Sweden for staying out of the war, that's silly.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2013, 04:57:08 pm »
And then when Poland was attacked, they did nothing.

Same goes for the Netherlands, actually. I read in the memoirs of a naval lieutenant positioned in the Dutch East-Indies, and he describes how they all thought, and pretty much believed, there was a massive column of Anglo-French soldiers heading to save the Netherlands. They took out maps and pointed to each other were they had heard the allies were coming in.
Couldn't be further from the truth, really.

Got an answer for you there.

Hitler's attack on Poland came quite unexpected.

By the time Britain and France got the news, they still needed to mobilise the greater part of their armies.
By the time they were done and at strength, there was no point in wasting tens of thousends of soldier's life on the slight chance to defend poland.

And then? Then britain and france had quite a bit of army, so that the invasion of Britain and France would be quite the easier for Hitler.
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Offline El_Presidente

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2013, 06:04:24 pm »
The nickname for this debated invasion of Germany while they invaded Poland was the 'Polish Gambit'. Some French troops did invade Germany and if they had bothered pushing forward without stopping for hours because of a rogue shot they could have broken the 'Western Front' captured the Rhineland area and forced Germany to surrender 6 years early. The British air force and fleet, although still being modernised, were ready to go in 1939 and the French army and air force were ready to invade.

Sweden and Switzerland would have been swallowed up if Britain and the USSR fell. Although it's more likely if Hitler forced the USSR to surrender the UK would have sued for peace with Germany and Hitler would have probably accepted a white peace. If this happened then Hitler would have annexed Sweden and Switzerland and you would be oppressed today. The argument of why you stayed neutral is logical but surely when you saw how many times Britain (And France to a lesser extent) let off Germany (Munich, Anschluss, Conscription, Rhineland remilitarisation) it is pure stupidity to not think "Hang on a minute, this guys a madman - he's invading all these countries and he will come for us eventually unless we stop him". Which is what the neutral powers thought. The USA's isolationism and semi-arrogant attitude of 'The war will never come to us!' cost tens of millions of more lives (Same goes for the British resolve pre war though, Chamberlin could have just said "No I won't sign this" at Munich and no WW2 or only a small scale war)

And also although I admittedly get a bit semi-nationalistic sometimes it escapes me how you can get so excited when your country was flattened. I acknowledge the resistance movements being very brave and bold but look at Britain's situation in 1940/1941 - that is where a nation is hopelessly out gunned and furious in defence of itself and democracy. 

This is excellent history revision for my OCR History GCSE exam coming up! (The collapse of international peace, the League of Nations and the Rise of Hitler/Fall of the Weimar Republic). Keep up the good work chaps  ;).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 06:07:14 pm by El_Presidente »

Offline Duuring

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2013, 06:19:52 pm »
Quote
Chamberlin could have just said "No I won't sign this" at Munich and no WW2 or only a small scale war)

And then Hitler would have gone to war a few years earlier.

Offline El_Presidente

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2013, 07:15:35 pm »
The Munich Confrence was in 1938. If Hitler had invaded Czeckslovakia  (Spelling QQ) then the UK, France and the USSR would have declared war on Germany. Czeckslovakia was by no means a walk over like Poland was. Hitler's generals were terrified at the prospect of invading the nation, it had massive border mortifications on all fronts (Like the Maginot line, but on all possible routes of attack) and a very modern army. Out of all the nations created out of WW1 (Poland, Yugoslavia etc) it was easily the most successful and formidable.

Germany vs Britain and the Empire, France, USSR (They had a defensive alliance with them like the French) and Czeckslovakia - they would have been flattened easily.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 07:17:35 pm by El_Presidente »

Offline Tali

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Re: Great Polish Generals Of The Second World War
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2013, 08:36:00 pm »
The nickname for this debated invasion of Germany while they invaded Poland was the 'Polish Gambit'. Some French troops did invade Germany and if they had bothered pushing forward without stopping for hours because of a rogue shot they could have broken the 'Western Front' captured the Rhineland area and forced Germany to surrender 6 years early. The British air force and fleet, although still being modernised, were ready to go in 1939 and the French army and air force were ready to invade.

Sweden and Switzerland would have been swallowed up if Britain and the USSR fell. Although it's more likely if Hitler forced the USSR to surrender the UK would have sued for peace with Germany and Hitler would have probably accepted a white peace. If this happened then Hitler would have annexed Sweden and Switzerland and you would be oppressed today. The argument of why you stayed neutral is logical but surely when you saw how many times Britain (And France to a lesser extent) let off Germany (Munich, Anschluss, Conscription, Rhineland remilitarisation) it is pure stupidity to not think "Hang on a minute, this guys a madman - he's invading all these countries and he will come for us eventually unless we stop him". Which is what the neutral powers thought. The USA's isolationism and semi-arrogant attitude of 'The war will never come to us!' cost tens of millions of more lives (Same goes for the British resolve pre war though, Chamberlin could have just said "No I won't sign this" at Munich and no WW2 or only a small scale war)

And also although I admittedly get a bit semi-nationalistic sometimes it escapes me how you can get so excited when your country was flattened. I acknowledge the resistance movements being very brave and bold but look at Britain's situation in 1940/1941 - that is where a nation is hopelessly out gunned and furious in defence of itself and democracy. 

This is excellent history revision for my OCR History GCSE exam coming up! (The collapse of international peace, the League of Nations and the Rise of Hitler/Fall of the Weimar Republic). Keep up the good work chaps  ;).

Ok, first of all. Why? Why would hitler have agreed to a white peace if the soviets fell? With more time and allocation of resources from the eastern border, Britain would have fallen. If Barbarossa sucedeed, we'd see large parts of europe under nationalist governments, or incorporated into Germany. That he would make peace when he had every chance of sucess is ludicrous.

Secondly, Britain had this small advantage to the other countries in Europe, namely the Channel. Had it not been for naval supremacy and geographical details, Britain would have fallen quickly. Still, you are correct in that the RAF pilots did a hell of a good job.

Lastly, If hitler would have won the war completely, it is very likely that many countries would have been released under puppet governments. As I mentioned earlier, he had no interests in France, the Balkans or Great Britain. Whilst they would have been run by nationalists, it would at least be domestic nationalists.
Here's where it would suck to be a Scandinavian, as our Germanic heritage might have led to an annexation into the German Reich. However, I doubt we would be very oppressed in that case. After all, Hitler did like Germanics. (Is that the proper term?)