Author Topic: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?  (Read 37219 times)

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Offline Johan

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #105 on: December 07, 2013, 08:43:23 am »
This argument will go on forever. We have a Fascist at one corner and a Communist at the other one, it's a trench-warfare-like argument.

Offline TheBoberton

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #106 on: December 07, 2013, 09:00:29 am »
it's a trench-warfare-like argument.

That's not a fair comparison.

With trench warfare, one side eventually wins.

Offline Archduke Sven

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #107 on: December 07, 2013, 01:10:23 pm »
This argument will go on forever. We have a Fascist at one corner and a Communist at the other one, it's a trench-warfare-like argument.

I'm not a fascist. Let me take the time out of my day to explain how utterly dumb you are. You know nothing of the topic, you are uneducated of it, but you want to say something to annoy me, thus you insult, saying i'm a fascist? I would be a fascist any day, rather than a pig who knows nothing, because atleast fascists stand for something, unlike you. What are you then? A socialist? I would love to hear.

Tiger II first saw combat on Eastern Front on 13th of August, 1944 near Sandomir. Germans made a combined attack of Tiger II and Tigers I. But Soviet forces with help of ari reconainse prepared ambush for them, using ISU 152 and heavy 122-mm AT guns. During the skirmish Germas lost 13 Tigers II, Soviet didnt lose any tank of AT gun. In battles near Stashuv and Shildov Soviet forces encountered another combined Tigers attack. Totally were destroyed 24 tanks (12 Tigers II). They stuck in mud and were overcicled by faster T-34-85's, crew abandoned tanks.


Yes, that is partially what i am saying, the Tiger II being overpowered in an ambush is mostly due to command issues rather than the tank being bad, they had poor intelligence of Soviet positions, while the Soviets had good intel, and the counterattack went into the ambush. Many of the tanks became bogged down in the muds and subsequently became sitting ducks stuck and abandoned at Sandomierz. This wasn't uncommon for crews of new tanks, we saw when the IS-2s first came into action at Targu-Frumos, the GD and 3. SS took care of them easily because the crews weren't familiar with their tanks in combat situations. Sandomierz was only the second time the Tiger II had been in action (First time being in the Minsk area). We never really had the chance to see the Tiger II reach it's full potential due to Germany's deteriorating position in the war.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 04:15:06 pm by SeanBeansShako »


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Offline Prince_Eugen

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2013, 02:42:08 pm »
As far as i read from documents, the first time Soviet army encountered Tiger II is Sandomir battle. Tiger II might be really good if the German made better steel, because the steel of late period was awfull and didnt have the benefits like the early or mid -period ones. They also made tanks in the great haste and that caused mechanical issues.

Also SS panzer divisions were superior in the early period of war, most of them died in snows near Moscow, they were beaten on Caucasus and destroyed in Kursk battle.
The success attributed to the SS is mostly based on their war diaries (Tigers in Combat). The diaries had little to do with reality (Tigers in Normandy). Even the Wehrmacht slashed the claims of the SS in half when estimating their performance, and Schneider’s research shows that even that was an optimistic figure. For example, Wittmann’s famous battle at Villers-Bocage where he is claims 20 kills only had 7 to his name. His victory was blown out of proportion by SS propaganda, since they were desperate for a tank ace among their own, routinely assigning an entire unit’s accomplishments to one tank/crew.
Most people focus on the three SS divisions that were LAH, Reich, and Totenkopf, which were equivalent to a Wehrmacht division at the best of times. The remaining SS divisions were barely Volkssturm quality, assigned to rear line duties such as executing civilians and fighting partisans.

Offline Augy

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2013, 03:09:51 pm »
Had Marshal Tukhachevsky not been purged by Stalin, the germans wouldn't have been so lucky early on in Barbarossa.
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Offline Prince_Eugen

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2013, 04:09:07 pm »
Had Marshal Tukhachevsky not been purged by Stalin, the germans wouldn't have been so lucky early on in Barbarossa.
Well, he wasnt that skilled, and doesnt matter if he were purged or not, he couldnt do anything to Germans anyways.

Offline Archduke Sven

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #111 on: December 08, 2013, 02:32:03 am »
As far as i read from documents, the first time Soviet army encountered Tiger II is Sandomir battle. Tiger II might be really good if the German made better steel, because the steel of late period was awfull and didnt have the benefits like the early or mid -period ones. They also made tanks in the great haste and that caused mechanical issues.

Yes indeed, i agree with you there, i read however that it was at Minsk the Tiger II first saw combat, with the sPzAbt501.

Quote
Also SS panzer divisions were superior in the early period of war, most of them died in snows near Moscow, they were beaten on Caucasus and destroyed in Kursk battle.

There were no SS Panzer divisions early in the war... They were motorized infantry for a long time, eventually they were upgraded to Panzer divisions in '42.

Quote
The success attributed to the SS is mostly based on their war diaries (Tigers in Combat). The diaries had little to do with reality (Tigers in Normandy). Even the Wehrmacht slashed the claims of the SS in half when estimating their performance, and Schneider’s research shows that even that was an optimistic figure. For example, Wittmann’s famous battle at Villers-Bocage where he is claims 20 kills only had 7 to his name. His victory was blown out of proportion by SS propaganda, since they were desperate for a tank ace among their own, routinely assigning an entire unit’s accomplishments to one tank/crew.

He did destroy 20 vehicles and AT guns, whereas only 7 where tanks. It wasn't a lie, and sure the attack would have been much more succesful had he ordered his company to attack instead of just his tank, and yes the propaganda did blow it out of proportions, but every side and branch was doing this.

Quote
Most people focus on the three SS divisions that were LAH, Reich, and Totenkopf, which were equivalent to a Wehrmacht division at the best of times. The remaining SS divisions were barely Volkssturm quality, assigned to rear line duties such as executing civilians and fighting partisans.

What? Are you saying, the high tier SS divisions were just equivalent to a Heer one? Those three divisions arguably represent the fiercest fighting force the Wehrmacht possesed. They were armed with the newest weapons, they were armed with a lot of those weapons. The soldiers were fierce and fanatical, they would often fight to destruction if they didn't succeed in their objectives. Remember that these were the formations that almost single handedly destroyed Mobile Group 'Popov' and retook Kharkov.

The SS Divisions 1-28 were all good fighting formations, some being better than others of course, but they were all a force to be reckoned with and were certainly equals to thei Heer counterparts. Sure, the anti-partisan formations such as the 1. SS-Infantrie Brigade or the SS-Kavallerie Brigade were not ideal for fighting enemy formations, since their duty was to round up and shoot partisans...


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Offline Hadhod

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #112 on: December 10, 2013, 04:38:20 am »
Really interesting read so far guys. I feel highly undereducated in the light of your knowledge on this topic so I can't really contribute anything to the discussion. Keep it up.

Offline Prince_Eugen

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #113 on: December 10, 2013, 09:59:12 pm »
In the early war during the Polish and French campaigns SS was superior, but after fighting on Eastern threater, SS lost all skilled and battle hardened soldiers and couldnt restore power to the end of war. I think from 1943 SS as a battle unit was weak.

Offline Archduke Sven

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #114 on: December 11, 2013, 12:38:46 am »
In the early war during the Polish and French campaigns SS was superior, but after fighting on Eastern threater, SS lost all skilled and battle hardened soldiers and couldnt restore power to the end of war. I think from 1943 SS as a battle unit was weak.

The SS was never even cited as notable units until the Balkans campaign. In Poland they were even noted as sub par by Heer commanders who though they took way too many casualties in their attacks and often pressing too far ahead and getting outflanked and surrounded. In the Low Countries campaign they did nothing of importance, their most famous action of that campaign was an LSSAH soldier shooting General Kurt Student in the head.

No, no, it was the Eastern front where the Waffen-SS became famous, at battles such as Prokhorovka, Kharkov, Narwa and several smaller actions in conjuction with Heer units. Then later on the Western front, at Caen and Market Garden, the Waffen SS was not a spent force by 1943, nor by '44. The Germanic SS units throughout the war represented the elite fighting forces of the Wehrmacht, tenacious and fierce during attacks, stubborn and resilient in defense. Just look how highly regarded they were by the Allies (Western allies atleast), they knew that when they were fighting the Waffen-SS, they couldn't expect them to surrender. The only Heer units i regard as equivalent or superior are the Grossdeutschland, Panzer-Lehr and Brandenburger divisions.


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Offline Wolff

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #115 on: December 13, 2013, 02:26:08 pm »
indeed. at the beginning of the war the SS was seen as an military uselees groupe of fanatics by many Wehrmacht soldiers, but with the war getting a lot harder (exspacilly in the east) the SS was used more and  more as "Feuerwehr" (fire fighters) in bad front-situations because of their high motivation and better equiptement and were seen as elite (but often still as idiotic fanatics :P ).

Offline Alan Watt

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #116 on: January 08, 2014, 02:05:47 am »
In the early war during the Polish and French campaigns SS was superior, but after fighting on Eastern threater, SS lost all skilled and battle hardened soldiers and couldnt restore power to the end of war. I think from 1943 SS as a battle unit was weak.

Waffen SS got kind o divided to weak filler divisions for propaganda purposes and core divisions witch managed to keep their battle efficiency up thanks to getting volunteers from diffrent nazi minded countrys. For example here is link for one Waffen SS division that were formed in 43 but its core were a division that had been in action from 1940: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_SS_Volunteer_Panzergrenadier_Division_Nordland
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Offline Friedrich

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #117 on: January 08, 2014, 11:48:36 am »
So much nice information, but so much bullshit in this thread as well. Funny to read. Keep it up!



Offline Sir Gordon of Ramsay

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #118 on: January 26, 2014, 10:55:46 am »
if they were so good they would have won
Allies - 1
Germany - 0

Fixed that for you  :)

Offline Archduke Sven

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Re: Why was the Wehrmacht so superior?
« Reply #119 on: January 26, 2014, 11:50:05 am »
Brits and Americans always think they would have won the war without one another, so silly.

Ony the French got it right  :)


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