Author Topic: Waterloo  (Read 4906 times)

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Offline KillerMongoose

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Waterloo
« on: January 09, 2013, 03:01:58 pm »
So I recently watched a documentary about the Battle of Waterloo which attributed Napoleon's loss mainly to weather conditions and terrain as well as psychiatric issues with both Napoleon and Ney, and not much at all to any of the tactical maneuvers made by either side. So my question for you all is, what are the some of the many reasons for Napoleon's defeat and what do you think were the moments that absolutely sealed Napoleon's fate.

Offline PhilipWarfare

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 03:18:45 pm »
Nice post and opening for a discussion!
I have studied history quite a lot, and the battle of Waterloo repeatedly times, from different perspectives.

I would like to suggest that, as you say yourself, much (certainly not all) depended on the weather. Because of the bad weather, Napoleon's cannons were very useless overall since their explosive / shrapnell ammunition had little, almost zero, effect. As a result the French bombardment on the British/allies located behind the famous "hill" was mostly a waste of time and ammunition, since most of the shells only exploded into the muddy ground causing minimal damage. (For most of the time, it was only seriously wounding or deadly if the shell had a direct hit during the battle).

We can anticipate that the bad weather causing the muddy ground also caused the overall movement of troops on the battlefield to go significantly slower than it would on a sunny day with dry ground. This did likely affect the French in a wider perspective rather than the British, since the French was the side moving troops the most and the longest distances etc.

But except for the bad weather, modern estimations suggest that the British-allied number nearly matched the number the French could field, while there was also a major reinforcement by the Prussians of some 30-60.000 men (All didn't arrive at once). This did keep some 20-25.000 frenchmen busy at Placenoit, making the main army of the french significantly smaller than the British and allied army during most of the battle. The Anglo-allies were lead by an experienced, cunning and quite defensive general: Wellington. Napoleon on the other hand was, not depending on earlier battles but on the current situation, forced to make aggressive moves. Since the British had a superior force because of the Prussian engagements at Placenoit, it is not a wonder that the French could not match up with them on the battlefield when taking in note that the British had superior terrain (topography etc.), superior numbers, buildings under British controll - the list grows quite long.

Napoleon tried to defeat the resistance once and for all, but with the circumstances that took place at Waterloo, I am more than convinced that neither Blücher nor Wellington would in his shoes have lead the French army to victory - it was simply too hard.

Edit: However it is very likely that France would have won that day with more favorable weather  8)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 03:22:29 pm by PhilipWarfare »

Offline Hekko

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2013, 04:12:35 pm »
The weather is of course one of the major factors, not just because it reduced the effectiveness of artillery and manouvers, but it also delayed the onset of the battle giving more time for the prussians to arrive.

Other than that I would say that a major problem was the breakdown in communication between Ney and Napoleon. Since if artillery and Infantry would have been moved up when Ney made his grand but ultimately ineffective cavalry charges the battle could have looked very different indeed. Afaik the reason why this didn't happen was that Ney though Napoleon would do that, while he took care of the cavalry side, when infact Napoleon was indisposed at that moment.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 11:47:55 pm by Hekko »

Offline GoldenEagle

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2013, 05:59:27 pm »
Like Hekko said, if Ney and Napoleon could have coordinated better, it COULD have gone better for Napoleon, maybe a less decisive defeat or something, but with the failed charge of the French cavalry and the right cavalry being exposed for a British cavalry attack made it a really decisive loss for Napoleon

Offline Mr T

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2013, 06:04:42 pm »
Also having read a great deal about the Waterloo Campaign I'll contribute.
French Commanders
When Napoleon returned from Elba, he had less of his Marshals than he had done before, the best available were him in terms of their ability are Ney, Davout, Mortier, and Grouchy who was made Marshal during the return of Napoleon.
Many good comanders were still available as well who were Generals, such as d'Erlon, but Napoleon was quite short on men he could rely on to do a task exceptionally, he needed a Minister of War, Davout despite being one of the best of Napoleon's Marshals was best qualified to be minister of war than anyone else, so he did not take part in the campaign.
Tragically, Mortier could not join the campaign because of disease, so he was unable to take part.
Ney, as seen in his actions during the campaign, is believed to of been distracted during the campaign, he was not the decisive leader he was before, this is probably due to his personal conflicts about betraying the King whom he'd sworn an oath too, he now knew if Napoleon fell, he would fall with him. As a result, he was reckless and indescisive and Quatre Bras could have been an easy Victory had Ney been so indescisive.
Grouchy, many have blamed Grouchy for the defeat at Waterloo for not arriving to Napoleon's aid, however he was a very good commander and defeated the Prussians at Wavre

Dat Rain
The downpour of rain on the night of the 17th of June practically saved the Allies in a sense, as a result Napoleon was unable to attack at 9am as he had planned, he had to attack after 11am, this delay was crucial because Napoleon knew the Prussians would be arriving which was why he wanted to destroy Wellington quickly and as soon as possible. The rain had taken his speed and mobility to set up his troops and artillery.
Hougoumont, La Haye Sainte and Papelotte
There is no question that the attempts to take these vital strategic points by the French were inadequate, almost no artillery was used to break the defences of these farm houses and as a result, French lives were spent in vain to breakthrough, and when breakthroughs did happen, the French were too slow to take the advantage. For example, a Lieutenant called Bonnet (or Legros?) used an engineer axe to break down the Northern gate of Hougoumont and led as small valiant group inside, but they were killed by a lethal musket volley. Had the storming party been bigger, had the French taken quick advantage, the Northern gate could have easily been overwhelmed at this point, but too late, the gates were closed. Hougoumont was also supposed to be a diversionry attack to have Wellington take men away from his centre (where Napoleon planned to attack) and to the Allied right, which in this respect was a success, however, Reille, commander of the II Corps failed to keep the attack diversionary, and the number of troops committed became far to much. Contary to many British sources, which often over estimate the numbers of troops committed to the attacks against them.
La Haye Sainte, had it fallen earlier in the battle than it did at 6:30pm, then the battle too could have been very different, it would have allowed the French artillery to advance earlier to fire at the Allies at close range, however, for the same reasons as for Hougoumont and Papelotte, the organisation for these attacks were lacking.

d'Erlon's Attack
There is a lot of controversy surrounding the attack of d'Erlon's I Corps' attack. Having not taken part in either Ligny of Quatre Bras (due to conflicting messages from Napoleon and Ney) d'Erlon was able to commit 20,000 men to his attack, however the comlumn of attack used has been seen as very contraversal. Instead of the common French practice to form columns of battalions, instead the attacks were done by whole divisions, this was where the entire divisions battalions would form in three ranks, and be arranged one battalion behind another, making the column much wider than long. The reason for this being controversal was because it has been seen as unwieldly, cumbersome and impossible to control, however lets look back. Many of the French Generals had fought Wellington in Spain, and knew what the British troops in the Allied army were capable of against the normal French column, so this formation of a battalion wide  column was probably a comprimise and an attempt to counter the British infantry two ranked line. Had the attack been successful, either Ney or d'Erlon would have been seen as a hero.
One of the divisions was sent to take La Haye Sainte, the rest marched up the ridge to the right of it if one were looking from the French ridge, it was Pegot's Marcognet's and Donzelot's divisions that advanced.
So how did the attack fail? Many British historians and officers have tried to suggest that it was the infantry who inflicted the columns with much death and that the columns had already started retreating before the charge of the British cavalry, however there is much more sufficient evidence that the attack from d'Erlon's Corps was on the verge of success, what is certain is that the French columns forced the first line of the Dutch-Belgian troops to fall back before being supported by Picton's Division. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that the French divisional columns were actually repulsing Picton's division, this is because most likley that the fire from the British and Allied troops was equal, rather than superior to the French fire.
So at this point, with the Division's of d'Erlons Corps were succeeding and breaking apart the Allied line, the timley charge by the British cavalry changed that however, what is certain is that the French were caught completley by surprise by the British cavalry, panic spread quickly and soon what had been organised troops close to possible victory had become a rabble, fleeing back towards the French ridge. This is another reason for why the divisional columns have been condemned, they offered very little defence against cavalry, the battalions had no room to form square because of the other batalions in front or behind them.
It appears that there was no, or very little French cavalry supporting the attack, it appears that the 1st Cavalry division of d'Erlons Corps had not advanced to support the attack, why they did not is very much in doubt.
So in truth, the French did not "come on in the same old style" as Wellington wrote in his report of the battle.
Significance of the Prussians
There can be no doubt the Prussians were as essential to the Allied army led by Wellington, without their intervention it is very unlikley Wellington would have won, and in fact had Blucher reported that he would not be able to aid Wellington before the battle, Wellington is unlikley to have tried to fight Napoleon at all.
The Prussians arrived at the battle around 4pm, Napoleon committed Lobau's VI Corps was commited, aroung 10,000 men, to holding up the first Prussian Corps (and did it very well to the best of their ability). Then the Young Guard Division was commited to defend Plachenoit, numbering around 4,500, Subervie's and Domon's Cavalry divisions, numbering around 2,300 men and finally two battalions of the Old Guard numbering about 1,100. This is a total of nearly 18,000 men commited to fighting the Prussians.   
.

The French Cavalry Attacks
The French cavalry performed excellently during the campaign, capturing around at least 4 British colours (To the Allied two Eagles).
The ordering of committing all the cavalry against solid Infantry squares at Waterloo is often blamed on Marshal Ney, for mistaking Allied re-deployment for signs of a retreat. However, at that point of the battle there were no other infantry troops available to attack the Allied line, d'Erlons Corps was regrouping after their repulse from the British cavalry, half of the II Corps under Reille was committed to the fight for Hougoumont, so Ney, who was commanding the army while Napoleon was organising the delaying of the Prussians, had practically no alternative but to use the cavalry.
However, Ney again showed the signs of rashness, as a commander he had the duty of overseeing the charges and giving what support needed to be given, however instead he was leading from the front charging the squares. Brave this may of been, it was not the behavior of a commander of an army, he was too late to send for artillery and Infantry support, by the time the Infantry was prepared (some troops from Reille's II Corps) the French cavalry was to batterred and combat ineffective for combined attacks to make a telling effect, the Infantry sent was repulsed. However, after the fall of La Haye Sainte, French artillery was able to get close enough to the Allied squares to fire canister and case shot, which devasted many of the squares, but this was not enough to break the French line.

The Attack of the Middle Guard
Contary to many British estimations, the attack of the Middle Guard consisted of just 5 Battalions. These battalions did not attack in to large echelons as is popular belief, they advanced towards the Allied line in square of battalions, this was to protect them from cavalry as they had no wish to share the fate of d'Erlon's Corpss earlier in the day. What is clear from eye-witness accounts is that French musket fire effectivness during this attack was very evident. In fact nearer the centre of the Allied line, to the right of the Middle Guard's attack, there is evidence that shows the battered Allies were crumbling from the effective fire of the veteran Guardsman and were starting to retreat in disorder, as an officer of the 33rd reported. it was the support of the Dutch-Belgin and other Allied battalions behind these battered brigades that later repulsed the attacks on the right, at the same time, the British Guards managed to repulse attack against them with the help of the 52nd, who despite taking heavy casualties from the French Guard's fire, managed to flank the furthest left square.
Simply, the 5 battalions Napoleon had to attack the Allies with was simply to small a number to break through the centre, despite them being of the Guard.

I expect I could write tons more but I'm knackered, enjoy :P 


Offline Duuring

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2013, 06:46:39 pm »
Just a quick post - the repulse of the Guard was in my opinion the finest hour of the allies - Wellington did precisely what was needed (getting reserves), and the timing and co-operation of the Allies was near to perfect. Ditmers brigade (which was completely fresh) even chased some Battalione, far prior to the ordered 'General advance'

It's a shame that this glorious moment has been argued over for 200 years - as all sides tries to take as much glory from it as possible.

Offline KillerMongoose

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 04:38:58 pm »
In hindsight, would Napoleon have stood a chance even if he did win Waterloo? Even if he won he would have been very depleted and there were two massive armies of Russians and Austrians if I remember correctly. Could Napoleon have stood a chance? Especially seeing as the best of his army died off in Russia or went to the allies.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2013, 04:49:51 pm »
In hindsight, would Napoleon have stood a chance even if he did win Waterloo? Even if he won he would have been very depleted and there were two massive armies of Russians and Austrians if I remember correctly. Could Napoleon have stood a chance? Especially seeing as the best of his army died off in Russia or went to the allies.

There was a Russian army coming from the East, a combined force of Prussians and Austrians in Mid-France, an Austrian invasion in Italy and a big Spanish-Portuguese army from the South.

In other words - He'd have no change. He'd have to split his forces AGAIN to clean up the Netherlands (the many fortresses and reserve troops)...so no way.

I do wonder what would have happened to Wellingtons allied troops: The Hanoverians, the Brunswickers, but most importantly, the Dutch and Belgians.

Offline Mr T

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2013, 04:56:32 pm »
In hindsight, would Napoleon have stood a chance even if he did win Waterloo? Even if he won he would have been very depleted and there were two massive armies of Russians and Austrians if I remember correctly. Could Napoleon have stood a chance? Especially seeing as the best of his army died off in Russia or went to the allies.

If he had defeated the Allies and the Prussians then yes Napoleon did stand a chance, because if the Wellington and Blucher were defeated and the British forces sailed back to Britain and the Prussians back to Prussia then it would take a long time for their armies to recover. And of course it would have been a massive morale loss for all the Allies.
Part of Napoleon's aim in defeating the British in the campaign was the hope that the British economy would collapse and a new Wig government, who were more willing for peace with France, would be elected.
As for Russia and Austria, by the time of Waterloo they were not  ready to invade France, they needed a few more months, and Napoleon could have easily of replenished his forces in that time from prepared depots in France and would of had a very good chance at defeating the Austrians and Russians, unless of course they could combine all their strength.
As for the best army dieing of Russia, that is not really true, as many Historians believe that the army that Napoleon commanded in the Waterloo campaign was the best army he'd commanded since the Ulm campaign in 1805, this is because during the peace in 1814 after the first abdication, French prisoners from British prison barges and allied prisons were released and returned to France, and all the troops who had survived the wars across Europe also returned to France. So when Napoleon returned, the ex-prisoner French soldiers still loyal to Napoleon were extremley high in number and also wanted another chance to fight those that'd captured them.

Edit- Damnit! Duuring beat me too it, well after what Duuring said, I personally think Napoleon had a chance, but of course History is all about perspectives :)


Offline KillerMongoose

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 04:58:27 pm »
What kind of outcome do you think we would have seen if the Dutch-Belgians chose to ally with France? The Allies would lose a crucial part of their army (Wellington probably would have been beaten at Quatre Bras presumably, if not then he would almost certainly have lost without the actions of Chasse's division, Bijlandt's Brigade, Ghighny's Brigade, Merlen's Brigade, and especially Tripp's brigade. Not only that but Napoleon would have many of his former veterans back and not to mention more troops in general.

Offline Mr T

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2013, 05:00:44 pm »
What kind of outcome do you think we would have seen if the Dutch-Belgians chose to ally with France? The Allies would lose a crucial part of their army (Wellington probably would have been beaten at Quatre Bras presumably, if not then he would almost certainly have lost without the actions of Chasse's division, Bijlandt's Brigade, Ghighny's Brigade, Merlen's Brigade, and especially Tripp's brigade. Not only that but Napoleon would have many of his former veterans back and not to mention more troops in general.

If that had happened, then Wellington would have been too weak to fight Napoleon anyway, its likley he would have either attempted to combine with Blucher, or if he couldnt, its likely he'd have to withdraw.


Offline Duuring

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2013, 05:05:40 pm »
What kind of outcome do you think we would have seen if the Dutch-Belgians chose to ally with France? The Allies would lose a crucial part of their army (Wellington probably would have been beaten at Quatre Bras presumably, if not then he would almost certainly have lost without the actions of Chasse's division, Bijlandt's Brigade, Ghighny's Brigade, Merlen's Brigade, and especially Tripp's brigade. Not only that but Napoleon would have many of his former veterans back and not to mention more troops in general.

Simply - None. The British would have no place to land, and while the Dutch-Belgians would be busy keeping the British off, Napoleon could have turned his entire force against Blücher.

If you mean, that they would have switched sides during the campaign, I think Wellington would have had no choice but to surrender, or to fight a way trough an enemy land full of garrisoned fortresses with only 60.000 men. It might have worked, but the French would have caught him sooner or later. But let's not forget that after June the 15th/16, Napoleon was between Blucher and Wellington, and with France to his front and the Dutch-Belgians in his back - It would be a few hectic days, but I can't see him win there. Even without thinking about him being cut off from communication and resources.

Mr_T, You are quite right on the prisoners - In fact, many French and French allied soldiers, taken prisoner in 1812, were still traveling back to their country in 1815, after being released in late 1814. But still, I can't see Napoleon winning the 1815 campaign. Damn, I wish a proper (thinking) game was made for that. Would be really interesting.

Edit:
Guys, try this game: http://www.pbs.org/empires/napoleon/n_war/ibs/game.html

It's fun, involves proper thinking and every decision can cost or win the battle.

Do tell what you scored. I just won a Major French victory, but I won't tell you guys how  ;)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 05:21:19 pm by Duuring »

Offline Augy

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2013, 05:19:38 pm »
Grouchy made it back to Paris in good order, They could've tried to defend the country from their network of fortresses and replenish their army (Don't know if they had the manpower etc though).
Anyhow, Even though they won because of British Pounds, it was ill fated as Revolutionary ideals spread among the people which caused most of the Reactionary monarchies of Europe to succumb during the 19th century (1848 revolutions etc).

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Offline Ililsa

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 09:11:19 pm »
Do tell what you scored. I just won a Major French victory, but I won't tell you guys how  ;)

Major Allied Victory, it was hanging in the balance for quite a while but after Blucher arrived we went from strength to strength until I repulsed the old guard the same way Wellington did.

Edit: I tried again and got a Complete Allied Major Victory!
Spoiler
The Prussians emerging victorious from Plancenoit push on into the French rear. During the ensuing confusion and panic a bullet strikes down Napoleon and he is killed. The word of Napoleon's death quickly spreads among the French troops who begin to utterly rout. Without their leader, France capitulates. Because of the key role of the Prussians in the French defeat Marshal Blucher emerges as the hero of Belle Alliance and Prussia takes on a dominant role in Europe.
[close]
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 10:52:37 pm by Ililsa »
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Offline Duuring

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Re: Waterloo
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2013, 12:09:55 am »
I do wonder how one can get an Early French Victory.