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Union or Confederacy

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Offline Chrono85

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #255 on: October 29, 2013, 10:28:40 pm »
I picked the Union, and I have to say that I am a bit disheartened to see so many people choosing the Confederacy. Maybe some people just like an underdog? :). I know it is just a video game, and I will probably play as both sides in the game, just for fun :). That being said, the Confederates were not fighting for a 'just cause', or rather, the Confederacy did not form out of a struggle against oppression, because the Southern states were not being oppressed. I saw comments on here stating that the Confederates wanted to govern themselves, but they already had the same levels of state-autonomy as any of the Northern states. This is not like the American revolution, where you had the Colonists rebelling against a government that they did not have any representation in, because the Southern states of the time had full representation within the US Congress.

Slavery was the cause of the civil war, and that is not to say that everyone who fought in the war was motivated for or against slavery, but it was the Institution of slavery that created the geopolitical and economic conditions which made this conflict happen. All of the other issues about 'states rights' and what not, are byproducts of slavery. The Southern states seceded because the leaders felt that slavery was under threat from the growing abolitionist movement in the North, sparked by the Dred Scott Case, and bolstered by the increasing political and economic clout of the free-states during the Industrial revolution. The Union only attacked after the Confederacy struck first at Fort Sumter, so it was actually the Confederacy which started the Civil war. So slavery WAS the cause of the Civil War, and the Confederacy was not fighting against an oppressive government.

 
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Offline Wismar

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #256 on: October 29, 2013, 10:35:23 pm »
More power to you!

I'm sure the common Southener fought so that the wealthy high class off his area could continue using slavery!

Offline Duuring

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #257 on: October 29, 2013, 10:38:54 pm »
There's a big difference between reasons to go to war and reasons to fight in a war.

Offline George385

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #258 on: October 29, 2013, 10:40:05 pm »
I picked the Union, and I have to say that I am a bit disheartened to see so many people choosing the Confederacy. Maybe some people just like an underdog? :). I know it is just a video game, and I will probably play as both sides in the game, just for fun :). That being said, the Confederates were not fighting for a 'just cause', or rather, the Confederacy did not form out of a struggle against oppression, because the Southern states were not being oppressed. I saw comments on here stating that the Confederates wanted to govern themselves, but they already had the same levels of state-autonomy as any of the Northern states. This is not like the American revolution, where you had the Colonists rebelling against a government that they did not have any representation in, because the Southern states of the time had full representation within the US Congress.

Slavery was the cause of the civil war, and that is not to say that everyone who fought in the war was motivated for or against slavery, but it was the Institution of slavery that created the geopolitical and economic conditions which made this conflict happen. All of the other issues about 'states rights' and what not, are byproducts of slavery. The Southern states seceded because the leaders felt that slavery was under threat from the growing abolitionist movement in the North, sparked by the Dred Scott Case, and bolstered by the increasing political and economic clout of the free-states during the Industrial revolution. The Union only attacked after the Confederacy struck first at Fort Sumter, so it was actually the Confederacy which started the Civil war. So slavery WAS the cause of the Civil War, and the Confederacy was not fighting against an oppressive government.

 

right so if slavery was the cause of it, how come many people in the Union had slaves? And many primary historical sources say that the Confederates felt like they werent having a say in the federal government, which is why they rebelled. Many songs that were sang in the CS mentioned that they hated the yanks for them not having a say in Federal parliament but not one song they sang mentioned slavery. And if you look at personal items from the CSA soldiers, such as letters & diaries, they do mention that they werent having a say in US parliament but they dont mention a thing about slavery.

Offline Chrono85

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #259 on: October 29, 2013, 11:10:45 pm »
I did not claim that every, or even most, individuals who fought in the war, did so over convictions about slavery. I said that slavery, as an institution, was the cause of the war. The Southern leaders seceded from the Union because they saw Abraham Lincoln, a moderate abolitionist, as plotting to end slavery across the nation. They were so afraid of his intentions toward slavery, that the Southern states refused to even put him on the ballot. The South was largely agrarian at the time, which was in contrast to the rapidly industrializing North, and to the people in power in the Southern States, the slave labor force was an important part of their economy. As for the assertion that the Southern states did not have representation or power within the Federal government in the years leading up the secession, this is completely untrue. The Southern states elected Congressmen, Senators and representatives, on a regular basis, just like the Northern states, and had all of the same voting rights and legislative authority.

If there is any doubt as to the motivations of the Southern leaders at the time, just read South Carolina's delcaration of secession:http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp It is very clear that their main grievances were over the perceived threat to slavery. Here are a couple of choice quotes "For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution" and as to their feelings on Lincoln "He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.".

And from the Mississippi declaration: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world." Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA, further enumerated on slavery as the cause of secession, in his famous Cornerstone Speech, which I will let you Google for yourselves. This is not to demonize Confederates, because plenty of them were good people, and Robert E. Lee, was personally opposed to slavery. The individual soldiers probably did not care about slavery so much, but felt like they were righting for their states. Regardless, however, of whom was personally motivated for or against slavery, it is is clear that the Confederate leadership, at the time of secession, had slavery on their minds. It is also worth re-iterating that the Confederacy fired the first shots of the war; meaning the Union was not the aggressor side in the conflict.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 11:16:49 pm by Chrono85 »
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Offline USE4life

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #260 on: October 30, 2013, 02:23:07 am »
There's a big difference between reasons to go to war and reasons to fight in a war.

This.  :-X

Offline Wismar

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #261 on: October 30, 2013, 02:56:28 am »
There's a big difference between reasons to go to war and reasons to fight in a war.
Not really.

Offline George385

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #262 on: October 30, 2013, 03:11:00 am »
There's a big difference between reasons to go to war and reasons to fight in a war.
Not really.

yea really

Offline Allasaphore

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #263 on: November 04, 2013, 04:57:24 am »
There's a big difference between reasons to go to war and reasons to fight in a war.
Not really.

yea really

Yep. Look at the wording.
You go to war for a reason and you fight in a war for some purpose. Nations go to war, people fight in them.

Offline Colonel Howe

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #264 on: November 04, 2013, 05:33:41 am »
The young poor die horribly to keep the old rich comfortable
Fuck off, Nazi scum

Offline Duuring

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #265 on: November 06, 2013, 06:00:47 pm »
Nation or state-pride was one of the fundamental reasons who people joined up. Other reasons were simply boredom, or friends pushing eachother - Companies, especially in the south, often came from one specific town or area where people knew eachother.

I'm confident that the random Yankee did not give a shit about what happened to the negroes, or even states leaving the union. Nobody (Except for, maybe, in Kansas and Missouri) was planning to grab a gun and start shooting people after they heard the south had left. When the nation called them to arms, 'for the Union', and for a buttload of other reasons, then they went. Just like WWI, or even the Napoleonics. The people of the CW followed their nation and their national pride, may that nation be Virginia, Texas, Ohio or the USA.

Offline Chrono85

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #266 on: November 09, 2013, 07:25:34 pm »
Yes, people fought in the war for many different reasons, but slavery was what brought about the conflict.
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Offline George385

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #267 on: November 11, 2013, 09:28:03 am »
A quote i found.

''This war is not about slavery''

~General Robert E. Lee

Offline Duuring

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #268 on: November 11, 2013, 02:25:30 pm »
A quote i found.

''This war is not about slavery''

~General Robert E. Lee

Right. Because one of their highest militairy commanders is a very reliable and unbiased source. That's like saying the Holocaust wasn't bad because Hitler said 'We kill them cos they evil".

Offline Augy

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #269 on: November 11, 2013, 02:56:03 pm »
If the federal government was willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of Americans back then , imagine what they'd do to a state today. Maybe it could happen, but after secession the state would need to be entirely ready to defend itself savagely from federal aggression.

Granted, last time they had the publicity advantage of a humanitarian cause (the Confederate secession dealing in large part with the issue of human slavery).

Why would you want to join either really
“Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable.” -Terence McKenna