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Union or Confederacy

Union
Confederacy
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Great Britain! Subdue the rebellious Colony!

Author Topic: Union Or Confederacy?  (Read 77487 times)

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Offline Menelaos

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #240 on: October 07, 2013, 05:19:07 am »
Sectionalism is the hugest part, it is what underlined so many causes.

Offline Fyzzaraya

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #241 on: October 08, 2013, 02:39:19 pm »
Slavery was the underlined cause of the war. Lost cause believers and revisionists will deny that but the maine cause the the riff between North and South was the slavery question.

Do you also believe WW1 started because of the assassination of Franz Ferdinand?

Offline Garnith

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #242 on: October 08, 2013, 05:44:29 pm »
Slavery was the underlined cause of the war. Lost cause believers and revisionists will deny that but the maine cause the the riff between North and South was the slavery question.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism
http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Historical_revisionism_(negationism).html

Not all historical revisionism is bad, Millander. I earnestly believe that we do need to look over the events and underlying causes of the American Civil War in light of new knowledge of the period and to do so in an unbiased manner.

It's incredibly important to note that the Civil War was not blatantly about slavery at the onset. I'm sure you realize that the Civil War essentially began with the Battle of Fort Sumter (1861), when the Confederate troops under Beauregard began to shell the fort. This leads one to suspect that the war was not begun for slavery, but as an independence movement.

It is a shame that so many deny the large estrangement that resulted over the slavery question, so large that it ruptured the nation into two separate states (or one, depending on your viewpoint). The North and South had different opinions on slavery, but this did not result in war independently of any other factors. Even Lincoln is quoted to have said "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that" in a letter to Horace Greeley in 1862.

It is also important to note that the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 did not end slavery in the Union, and would only apply to states "still in revolt". This meant that slavery in the border states was preserved in the border states until slavery was officially abolished (13th Amendment, 1865-Post Civil War).

The greatest factor in the American Civil War would be the preservation of the Union as a single nation as opposed to different nations. When the Confederacy formed, Fort Sumter (in SC) was not evacuated by the Union troops, essentially indicating that the Confederate government was not recognized as a legitimate body (France nor Britain recognized them either). Following the shelling of Ft. Sumter, the southern states were considered to be "in revolt" and responded to accordingly.

The American Civil War was more the result of estrangement caused by sectionalism than motivated by slavery alone. Slavery was a factor, but to call it the cause of the American Civil War is a logical fallacy.

Sources:
http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/fort-sumter.html?tab=facts
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/

PS: I've always liked the Union. :)

Well said, I was going to write an explanation about the circumstances that underlined, evovled, rose, and fell during the war. However I feel that you have done a good job at describing the cirumstances.

On another note, the moment that I saw the title for this thread I knew imediatly that there would be pages of "The war was all about slavery!" folowed by "No it was not!" etc.*  However, while I feel that while this is an un-avoidable topic with anything covering this war, I feel that we have digresed from the origional intention of this thread, to tell which side you look foreward to play as the most. Obviously it is up to the admins in the end, yet I almost think that there should be a special thread for such debate. And I specifically use the term "debate" to note that I do not invision a thread full of "You racist slavers!" and "You union loving oppresors!" etc.

Yes, I know that is is near impossible to avoid the quickly writen retaliatory comments of many people. That wisthstanding, I mean for a thread to allow for such things as the post I have quoted, Well thought out, researched, and CITED arguements from both sides. So while the unnecissary comments will arise, I would hope that a format of more educated communication would dishearten the casual comentor from whimsical posts. (I realizes this is most likley an un-realistic expectaion, However it is one I would be proud to see this community acomplish)

With all said, I am currently finished (For now) with offering up my opinion on this matter, and shall leave the rest to a mature admin panel, community, and developers. I wish a good day to you all.  :)

Foot Notes:
*(The war initiated over states rights to secede)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 05:57:50 pm by Garnith »

Offline George385

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #243 on: October 11, 2013, 07:26:41 am »
The Confederates only wanted the right to govern themselves, slavery is just a side thing that happened at that time. George Washington owned slaves, does that make him a bad guy? Even people in the Union had slaves. They were fighting for the right to be an independant country but the feds didnt like the idea so they went to war with them. In fact, although it is known that Abraham Lincoln was against slaves, Abraham Lincoln believed that black people should NOT have the same rights as white people. He said so himself in a debate in Illinois on September 18, 1858.

I support the idea of the Confederates, i do believe that in the basic rights for all Americans, it says that all americans shall be listened to, in other words, freedom of speech. That is what provoked the civil war, not slavery.

People often say that if the Confeds would have won, this world as we know it would not exist. You dont know that. You cant just presume that the world would be like hell if the Confeds had won when it never happened. The world could be alot better. We dont know and we will never know.

Offline Wismar

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #244 on: October 11, 2013, 09:54:17 pm »
Long live the CS of the holy A!

Offline ClearlyInvsible

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #245 on: October 11, 2013, 10:04:15 pm »
Long live the CS of the holy A!
'

If the CSA is holy, I'm Queen fckin Elizabeth.
"No man will make a great leader who wants to do it all himself or get all the credit for doing it."- Andrew Carnegie
“A man who has no conscience, no goodness, does not suffer.” - Khaled Hosseini
Faggots will burn in hell anyway, who cares.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #246 on: October 11, 2013, 10:22:02 pm »
Slavery was the underlined cause of the war. Lost cause believers and revisionists will deny that but the maine cause the the riff between North and South was the slavery question.

Do you also believe WW1 started because of the assassination of Franz Ferdinand?

The assassination was the spark that lit the powder, only the spark was caused by flint and steel, and the barrel already filled.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline JaredThinks

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #247 on: October 11, 2013, 11:12:59 pm »
I support the Confederacy for states' rights.
Advance the flag of Dixie!
Hurrah! Hurrah!
For Dixie's land we take our stand,
And live or die for Dixie!

Offline Wismar

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #248 on: October 11, 2013, 11:22:28 pm »
Long live the CS of the holy A!
'

If the CSA is holy, I'm Queen fckin Elizabeth.
The poll says otherwise...

Offline George385

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #249 on: October 11, 2013, 11:29:26 pm »
Long live the CS of the holy A!
'

If the CSA is holy, I'm Queen fckin Elizabeth.
The poll says otherwise...
lol. read it properly, he said long live the Confederate States of the holy America. He didnt say that the CSA is holy. He said America is holy.

Offline Chantakey

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #250 on: October 17, 2013, 12:38:04 am »
As a boy From TN i must choose the confederacy.They didnt fight for slavery or to govern themselves it was for the rights that those yanks took away

Offline yanja

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #251 on: October 22, 2013, 06:23:48 am »
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Offline Jack Bastonne

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #252 on: October 26, 2013, 05:40:56 pm »
Union because if states should have the right to Govern themselves then samething should apply to the Black People.

Offline Wismar

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #253 on: October 27, 2013, 12:50:01 am »
Union because if states should have the right to Govern themselves then samething should apply to the Black People.
Well, it doesn't have anything with you being black, it's about being a slave. There were free black men and plenty off coloured slave owners.

Offline Richard_Miller

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Re: Union Or Confederacy?
« Reply #254 on: October 27, 2013, 12:57:27 am »
Time for great Britian to make there move me thinks *evil face*